Chemistry Question w/Paul George

ALL HAIL · Post #1 » by **ALL HAIL** » Mon Mar 6, 2017 7:54 pm

If Paul George were on this team tomorrow, completely ignoring the rest of the roster and what it'd take to acquire George, if you were building a team from scratch, which player is the better fit next to George -- Russell, Ball, Fultz, or Jackson?

Michael Lucky · Post #2 » by **Michael Lucky** » Mon Mar 6, 2017 8:14 pm

George wouldn't fit badly with any of them. The only problem is the huge age gap difference. If you want to contend you need your pieces to be in their primes together unless you so happen to have two top 10 players all time on the roster. I don't see this as being feasible with Paul George who at this point is a fringe top 15/20 player today, so i'm not looking to waste time in first round playoff mediocrity with him.

RingsDontLie · Post #3 » by **RingsDontLie** » Mon Mar 6, 2017 8:47 pm

Michael Lucky wrote:George wouldn't fit badly with any of them. The only problem is the huge age gap difference. If you want to contend you need your pieces to be in their primes together unless you so happen to have two top 10 players all time on the roster. I don't see this as being feasible with Paul George who at this point is a fringe top 15/20 player today, so i'm not looking to waste time in first round playoff mediocrity with him.

Whose to say we don't get other players once George is here? You would complain about 1st round mediocrity after the last few seasons? I wouldn't. I'm more tired of this team being on the bottom season after season. Playoffs would be good for the fan base even if it is just a 1st round appearance.

ALL HAIL · Post #4 » by **ALL HAIL** » Mon Mar 6, 2017 9:10 pm

RingsDontLie wrote:
Michael Lucky wrote:George wouldn't fit badly with any of them. The only problem is the huge age gap difference. If you want to contend you need your pieces to be in their primes together unless you so happen to have two top 10 players all time on the roster. I don't see this as being feasible with Paul George who at this point is a fringe top 15/20 player today, so i'm not looking to waste time in first round playoff mediocrity with him.

Whose to say we don't get other players once George is here? You would complain about 1st round mediocrity after the last few seasons? I wouldn't. I'm more tired of this team being on the bottom season after season. Playoffs would be good for the fan base even if it is just a 1st round appearance.

He's only not interested in "first round playoff mediocrity" because of the age differences. He doesn't think that older stars should play with baby, burgeoning ones. Because, you know, 27 year old all-stars are of no use to twenty-year olds.

ock · Post #5 » by **ock** » Mon Mar 6, 2017 9:57 pm

Ball is the best fit because no matter what his supposed deficiencies are, players are going to love playing with him. That includes current and future players, and FA's.

Landsberger · Post #6 » by **Landsberger** » Tue Mar 7, 2017 3:41 am

No one knows how any of those guys beyond Russell will make the transition to the NBA. Top rated college players history would lead one to believe that they all could underperform the draft hype machine or maybe just one or 2 play at levels matching the hype.

Chemistry is something that takes time, a cohesive system and players willing to change their game to fit with others. How can anyone tell that with guys who have never stepped on an NBA court before?

George is a somewhat unique talent in how he plays the game. I think he needs a 3/D PG and a scoring PF around him to make him the best he can be. The question you should ask is: Is a best he can be George good enough to get us deep in the playoffs? My answer is that we would need to have a team around him and that just because you left our how he got here doesn't mean it's probably the most important part of the proposition.

danfantastk32 · Post #7 » by **danfantastk32** » Tue Mar 7, 2017 7:14 am

Landsberger wrote:The question you should ask is: Is a best he can be George good enough to get us deep in the playoffs? My answer is that we would need to have a team around him and that just because you left our how he got here doesn't mean it's probably the most important part of the proposition.

I agree with that mostly. It's my worry with George. He's good enough to get the max.....but he will be one of the overpaid max players.

In brief....you take Lebron (or whomever), and you compare him to the rest of the max players. Think about it: someone is paying the same price for Lebron (or Steph..or Leonard) as we are paying for George. George is good...he's not Lebron. So we're "overpaying"

You gotta stop and think about it. Everyone not as good as Lebron (everyone...as of now) is charging the same price. How close that player is, is the decision you have to make. Unfortunately....there are some max guys (or will be over the next couple offseasons) who are really nowhere close to as good as the best player. IMO....George is nowhere near as good as Lebron. So I ask myself how much I really want to max him?

But would he bring a 2nd star? Suddenly the value goes up, doesn't it? CAN we bring a 2nd star? We gotta offload some contracts in order to do that. I like PG. As a guy above posted....I'd really like to make the playoffs. This tank stuff SUCKS. I'm so over it. At some point, you need a star. You can't always get Lebron....but you need someone. You can spend 20 years waiting for the "perfect" guy...or else you can start amassing pieces, and see what happens.

I just think PG is prob the wrong piece. So I'm fairly luke-warm to the idea of getting him. Especially if it's just him.

ALL HAIL · Post #8 » by **ALL HAIL** » Tue Mar 7, 2017 5:22 pm

I've been watching Josh Jackson the last few weeks, and he looks to me to be the most versatile fit next to most players in the league. Even when discussing the best fit next to just Paul George, Jackson seems to be the best fit to me.

I worry about Fultz's intangibles. More so than even Ben Simmons last year, I worry about him being a winner, a guy who knows how to connect with teammates and rally them around him. He reminds me of Steve Francis -- talented as hell but lacks a spirit of cohesion and will.

Ball is the complete opposite, but I worry if he'd be effective if, by virtue of circumstance, he was on the floor for 3-4 minutes straight without bringing the ball up. In other words, I feel like his natural game would be diminished playing off the ball for long periods of time, and playing with George, especially in the playoffs, he may be subjected to that.

Josh Jackson is probably worse than Fultz and Ball as a spot up shooter, but I can't help but think that after a year or two playing alongside George, Jackson would almost certainly, to me, become a more lethal version of him. With George's tutelage, I think you almost guarantee Jackson reaching his potential. In the meantime, as Jackson is growing, I think he would more naturally defer to George, as a mentor, than Fultz would. Ball would willingly defer too, but his overall game would suffer as a result.

Jackson would adjust the best to George while not losing the integrity of his natural playing style.

In short, if the Lakers do indeed have their sights on Paul George, Josh Jackson, so far in my analysis of the three at least, is the most dynamic fit next to George of the three:

PG - Russell - Hinrich
SG - Brewer - Nwaba
C - Nance - Zubac
PF - Deng - Ingram
SF - George - Jackson

Although I have Jackson listed above as a backup to George, they would play significant minutes in tandem. I believe in having at least three legitimate offensive options coming off the bench (bolded), so, along with the added benefit of Jackson guarding George in practice (priceless for a young guy's growth by the way), you also get to use his offensive spark off the bench, while Brewer and Nwaba at SG act as mere place holders for him. In fact, the fourth quarter lineup would probably look more like this:

PG - Russell
SG - Jackson
C - Nance or Zubac
PF - Ingram or Nance
SF - George

Post #9 » by **TyCobb** » Tue Mar 7, 2017 5:36 pm

Great post all-around. Ball doesn't have such a high FG% cause he can shoot, it's because he is very active moving without the ball (crashing to the boards, cutting to the rim, catching lobs baseline). Love the Steve Francis-Fultz reference. Jackson to me looks like an elite role player. I have Tatum rated over Jackson with Isaac above both players.

Man if Allen comes out from Texas and we can snag him with the Houston pick, then I don't give a f what we do with our Top 3 pick. :laugh:

NBAWestFan · Post #10 » by **NBAWestFan** » Wed Mar 8, 2017 11:11 pm

If Brandon Ingram is the future with Nance
and if they keep the pick and get Ball or Jackson.

I would think George does not fit in.

Alot depends on those lotto balls.

If no pick then I would try to get a star.

tugs · Post #11 » by **tugs** » Wed Mar 8, 2017 11:28 pm

Chemistry should be organic (wink) and not forced.

Dr Aki · Post #12 » by **Dr Aki** » Thu Mar 9, 2017 1:36 am

timeline-wise, just landing George alone doesn't shift the needle a great deal, as all the young kids will need 2-4 years minimum to reach starter quality. Russell, Nance and Zubac's extension take effect in summer 2019, which means the time to maximise cap space is summer 2018

if we want to contend, we have to try to dump Deng and Mozgov somehow whether it's through trading or stretching their contracts so that we can use the cap space opened up to sign another marquee free agent at a similar point of their careers (i.e. westbrook), and we're going to need that cap space to get the Lakers past a round first exit AT BEST

for that, we need to at a minimum use Clarkson, Randle and whatever available picks (sans top #3 lottery picks), to dump Deng or Mozgov. i would shy away from trading everyone else, because there still needs to be core players to give the team depth.

for chemistry purposes, the ideal player is obviously Ball. a pass-first PG that is the system, rather than trying to cobble a passing system or philosophy from players that struggle at keeping their assists to turnover ratios low

NBAWestFan wrote:If Brandon Ingram is the future with Nance
and if they keep the pick and get Ball or Jackson.

I would think George does not fit in.

Alot depends on those lotto balls.

If no pick then I would try to get a star.

those lotto balls are literally the only recourse, whether they're 2017 or 2018 lotto balls

reason being there is no cap space to sign another star, and we must preserve that cap space for a year to sign George in the first place

if we can't, i agree, we should say no to George, there is no point to signing him and getting delivered a massively punitive luxury tax bill for 1st round exits, especially once we extend Randle, Russell, Nance and Zubac without somehow dumping Deng and Mozgov

LAKESHOW · Post #13 » by **LAKESHOW** » Thu Mar 9, 2017 2:01 am

First off. George has never been linked to being a lockerroom cancer. He's always been known as a team player. Maybe spoke out about trade practices and being in the loop. But always been stand up guy. Secondly. Talent and experience Trump's chemistry at this point. Meaning a guy with no baggage. Who is talented and experience. Needs to be on board immediately. All we need to do is look at the sixers. That train is gone off the tracks.

Landsberger · Post #14 » by **Landsberger** » Thu Mar 9, 2017 4:19 am

NBAWestFan wrote:If Brandon Ingram is the future with Nance
and if they keep the pick and get Ball or Jackson.

I would think George does not fit in.

Alot depends on those lotto balls.

If no pick then I would try to get a star.

I see several scenarios where the lotto balls are not connected to George at all. Next offseason we could sign him outright and trade the lotto picks to fill in around him. Just because you draft a top 5 player doesn't mean you keep him forever. If you can get a proven top 10 player in the league in his prime you should get him and figure the rest out after that. In our situation you should take the proven talent or projected talent fulfillment.

Second, the lotto balls may be the asset we need to get him. I think this is much more likely. Magic is here to change things. The FO is in turmoil and the young kids we have are moving ahead very slowly. Getting an established star in here to throw some shade on the kids would be a great change. Yet another top 5 pick who may or may not grow into a player of George's caliber seems like a gamble we can't take at this point. We on track for the 2nd worst record in the league. Our youth is getting the heavy minutes we've all thought they needed and it's not pretty.

I have no idea if George is the guy to help turn around this mess but I'm pretty sure that the youngsters by themselves will be crushed by the pressure both from the situation on the floor as well as the one developing in the FO. Bad team.... E Tonight style mess in the front office and racking up losing records right and left for the franchise with the second most championships. That's a ton of pressure.

iamworthy · Post #15 » by **iamworthy** » Thu Mar 9, 2017 4:29 am

Landsberger wrote:
NBAWestFan wrote:If Brandon Ingram is the future with Nance
and if they keep the pick and get Ball or Jackson.

I would think George does not fit in.

Alot depends on those lotto balls.

If no pick then I would try to get a star.

I see several scenarios where the lotto balls are not connected to George at all. Next offseason we could sign him outright and trade the lotto picks to fill in around him. Just because you draft a top 5 player doesn't mean you keep him forever. If you can get a proven top 10 player in the league in his prime you should get him and figure the rest out after that. In our situation you should take the proven talent or projected talent fulfillment.

Second, the lotto balls may be the asset we need to get him. I think this is much more likely. Magic is here to change things. The FO is in turmoil and the young kids we have are moving ahead very slowly. Getting an established star in here to throw some shade on the kids would be a great change. Yet another top 5 pick who may or may not grow into a player of George's caliber seems like a gamble we can't take at this point. We on track for the 2nd worst record in the league. Our youth is getting the heavy minutes we've all thought they needed and it's not pretty.

I have no idea if George is the guy to help turn around this mess but I'm pretty sure that the youngsters by themselves will be crushed by the pressure both from the situation on the floor as well as the one developing in the FO. Bad team.... E Tonight style mess in the front office and racking up losing records right and left for the franchise with the second most championships. That's a ton of pressure.

You think George is a top 10 player?

LakersSoul · Post #16 » by **LakersSoul** » Thu Mar 9, 2017 12:15 pm

TyCobb wrote:Great post all-around. Ball doesn't have such a high FG% cause he can shoot, it's because he is very active moving without the ball (crashing to the boards, cutting to the rim, catching lobs baseline). Love the Steve Francis-Fultz reference. Jackson to me looks like an elite role player. I have Tatum rated over Jackson with Isaac above both players.

Man if Allen comes out from Texas and we can snag him with the Houston pick, then I don't give a f what we do with our Top 3 pick.

I doubt Jarrett will last that long. If we get the top 3 pick then we might want to trade it for a few first rounders this year and one in the future that nets us Jarrett and say Dennis Smith Jr. Then we have so many options including trading Randle for players(point guard)/picks. That would be a coup for Magic and Pelinka/West.

Landsberger · Post #17 » by **Landsberger** » Thu Mar 9, 2017 4:05 pm

iamworthy wrote:
Landsberger wrote:
NBAWestFan wrote:If Brandon Ingram is the future with Nance
and if they keep the pick and get Ball or Jackson.

I would think George does not fit in.

Alot depends on those lotto balls.

If no pick then I would try to get a star.

I see several scenarios where the lotto balls are not connected to George at all. Next offseason we could sign him outright and trade the lotto picks to fill in around him. Just because you draft a top 5 player doesn't mean you keep him forever. If you can get a proven top 10 player in the league in his prime you should get him and figure the rest out after that. In our situation you should take the proven talent or projected talent fulfillment.

Second, the lotto balls may be the asset we need to get him. I think this is much more likely. Magic is here to change things. The FO is in turmoil and the young kids we have are moving ahead very slowly. Getting an established star in here to throw some shade on the kids would be a great change. Yet another top 5 pick who may or may not grow into a player of George's caliber seems like a gamble we can't take at this point. We on track for the 2nd worst record in the league. Our youth is getting the heavy minutes we've all thought they needed and it's not pretty.

I have no idea if George is the guy to help turn around this mess but I'm pretty sure that the youngsters by themselves will be crushed by the pressure both from the situation on the floor as well as the one developing in the FO. Bad team.... E Tonight style mess in the front office and racking up losing records right and left for the franchise with the second most championships. That's a ton of pressure.

You think George is a top 10 player?

He's got to be in that conversation. His impact is more than his stats in the right situation. For us anyone who can give this team some direction/leadership is a top 10 player. It may be debatable that he's a top 10 player however it appears he's the easiest really good player we can realistically get. Even at that the buzz is most likely more than the reality. It always is. I guess you'd have to look at it this way. A couple less young unknowns and George or another top 3 pick who, at best, is 2 or 3 years away from being a true difference maker and may not be one at all. I'm not in the camp that you can just draft a top 3 player and ink them in as a future All Star/leader etc. History shows us that it's about a 20% probability of all of that being the case. I'm beginning to think we need to get the next leader and let the young guys fill in around him over hoping that one of them is that guy.

RingsDontLie · Post #18 » by **RingsDontLie** » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:10 am

danfantastk32 wrote:
Landsberger wrote:The question you should ask is: Is a best he can be George good enough to get us deep in the playoffs? My answer is that we would need to have a team around him and that just because you left our how he got here doesn't mean it's probably the most important part of the proposition.

I agree with that mostly. It's my worry with George. He's good enough to get the max.....but he will be one of the overpaid max players.

In brief....you take Lebron (or whomever), and you compare him to the rest of the max players. Think about it: someone is paying the same price for Lebron (or Steph..or Leonard) as we are paying for George. George is good...he's not Lebron. So we're "overpaying"

You gotta stop and think about it. Everyone not as good as Lebron (everyone...as of now) is charging the same price. How close that player is, is the decision you have to make. Unfortunately....there are some max guys (or will be over the next couple offseasons) who are really nowhere close to as good as the best player. IMO....George is nowhere near as good as Lebron. So I ask myself how much I really want to max him?

But would he bring a 2nd star? Suddenly the value goes up, doesn't it? CAN we bring a 2nd star? We gotta offload some contracts in order to do that. I like PG. As a guy above posted....I'd really like to make the playoffs. This tank stuff SUCKS. I'm so over it. At some point, you need a star. You can't always get Lebron....but you need someone. You can spend 20 years waiting for the "perfect" guy...or else you can start amassing pieces, and see what happens.

I just think PG is prob the wrong piece. So I'm fairly luke-warm to the idea of getting him. Especially if it's just him.

I don't see it happening unless we get the top pick. If we get a top three pick and package it with Randle and Zubac there is a discussion to made with Larry. Zubac is a center with possible all star upside, randle a definite 10-10 guy already that will continue to improve, and a top 3 pick in a deep draft. To me that's fair. Russell / Ingram however need to be off the table.

Spens1 · Post #19 » by **Spens1** » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:30 am

I'd still go with Fultz.

Though ideally if everything went absolutely 100% right for us, by 2018

Fultz-Russell-George-Randle-Zubac

ALL HAIL · Post #20 » by **ALL HAIL** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:20 pm

RingsDontLie wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
Landsberger wrote:The question you should ask is: Is a best he can be George good enough to get us deep in the playoffs? My answer is that we would need to have a team around him and that just because you left our how he got here doesn't mean it's probably the most important part of the proposition.

I agree with that mostly. It's my worry with George. He's good enough to get the max.....but he will be one of the overpaid max players.

In brief....you take Lebron (or whomever), and you compare him to the rest of the max players. Think about it: someone is paying the same price for Lebron (or Steph..or Leonard) as we are paying for George. George is good...he's not Lebron. So we're "overpaying"

You gotta stop and think about it. Everyone not as good as Lebron (everyone...as of now) is charging the same price. How close that player is, is the decision you have to make. Unfortunately....there are some max guys (or will be over the next couple offseasons) who are really nowhere close to as good as the best player. IMO....George is nowhere near as good as Lebron. So I ask myself how much I really want to max him?

But would he bring a 2nd star? Suddenly the value goes up, doesn't it? CAN we bring a 2nd star? We gotta offload some contracts in order to do that. I like PG. As a guy above posted....I'd really like to make the playoffs. This tank stuff SUCKS. I'm so over it. At some point, you need a star. You can't always get Lebron....but you need someone. You can spend 20 years waiting for the "perfect" guy...or else you can start amassing pieces, and see what happens.

I just think PG is prob the wrong piece. So I'm fairly luke-warm to the idea of getting him. Especially if it's just him.

I don't see it happening unless we get the top pick. If we get a top three pick and package it with Randle and Zubac there is a discussion to made with Larry. Zubac is a center with possible all star upside, randle a definite 10-10 guy already that will continue to improve, and a top 3 pick in a deep draft. To me that's fair. Russell / Ingram however need to be off the table.

That's too much young man. Way, way too much.

Why would Bird be entertaining offers if it weren't for WojBombs about George's yearn to be a Laker? It's the only reason we're talking.

This is not Bird trading George in isolation. No, this is Bird knowing he's got to dump him, so he'll field offers from teams other than the Lakers who are willing to risk losing him in free agency.

That list of teams is not that long.

However, there are a couple of teams who could swoop in when they so desired and pair him with another star and give him ininstant playoffs (just add water)