Is Jordan Clarkson a negative value contract?

[Slava]

Seeing as how he has not made any significant leaps in any statistical category from last season to this one and the fact that he is owed $42 mil over the next 3 seasons for being an inefficient bench scorer with poor defensive tendencies, is it time to lump him alongside Mozgov and Deng as a bad contract?

Per 36 & Advanced Stats:

Season 1: 17.1 PTS - 4.7 REB - 5.0 AST - 52.8% TS - 31.4% 3PT - 16.9 PER - 20.3% 3 PTAR - 26.5 % FTR - +1.4 OBPM - -0.3 DBPM
Season 2: 17.3 PTS - 4.4 REB - 2.7 AST - 51.6% TS - 34.7% 3PT - 14.3 PER - 29.1% 3 PTAR - 18.6% FTR - +0.6 OBPM - -1.4 DBPM
Season 3: 18.3 PTS - 3.7 REB - 3.0 AST - 52.5% TS - 31.4% 3PT - 13.4 PER - 32.1% 3 PTAR - 16.9% FTR - -0.6 OBPM - -2.9 DBPM

As you can see he has regressed across the board except for a slight uptick in volume scoring. His efficiency has dropped, he has declined since showing an encouraging improvement in his 3 point shooting last season and now a days he is taking more 3s while shooting worse and his free throw rate has dropped calamitously indicating that he is driving less and taking more jumpers. His already mediocre defense has regressed steadily and he is quite possibly the worst defensive guard in the league who's not vertically challenged like Isiah Thomas.

Put him next to the other two and Jimbo and Mitch would have hamstrung the franchise to the extent of $182 mil in one offseason.

[TyCobb]

Absolutely.

“You’re going to have bad shooting nights. That’s part of what we’re trying to teach,” Walton said. “Even when you’re having bad shooting nights, impact the game in a positive way somewhere else.” - March 21, 2017

^Zero progress made this season. He still doesn't get/accept it.

[dockingsched]

I think in the context of another cap increase this summer, I say no.

[lake_show]

No. I wouldn't put him in the same, or even similar, category as Deng and Moz. He may not have had huge leaps in production, but he still has value as a scorer off the bench for us, and could be a valuable piece in potential trade talks. Deng and Moz, along with their contracts, are a negative for us on and off the court.

[Landsberger]

I think it depends on the context of his performances. How does his "stats' compare to the top 3 players on other 20 win teams? I think his true value to the Lakers, in our current situation, is a lot more than the sum of stats. If this team improves to say a 7-8 seed and he's putting up similar numbers as the 6th man on his contract I'd say he's valuable.

His impact on the team has been more good than bad IMHO but then again I value consistent effort and there isn't a stat for that. While he is fading in shooting efficiency down the stretch he's still by a long ways our best player at getting to the hoop. He also seems to have a very good feel for playing with Zubac in the Pick and Roll.

He and Russell are the only guards on the team that have potential futures beyond next year with us. If the point of this thread is to somehow prove that Clarkson is the one who should be moved in the offseason my question would be that we already need a couple guards for depth this offseason and if we moved him we'd need 3. Can we get a veteran guard that will have as much impact as he does at his cost? He's under our control for a while. The first big contract decision we will have to make will be with Randle and he's the one I think fits lease with the rest of the group from a team composition standpoint. Clarkson should be the first player off the bench if/when we get a PG.

[Penberthy]

Seeing as how he has not made any significant leaps in any statistical category from last season to this one and the fact that he is owed $42 mil over the next 3 seasons for being an inefficient bench scorer with poor defensive tendencies, is it time to lump him alongside Mozgov and Deng as a bad contract?

Per 36 & Advanced Stats:

Season 1: 17.1 PTS - 4.7 REB - 5.0 AST - 52.8% TS - 31.4% 3PT - 16.9 PER - 20.3% 3 3PTAR - 26.5 % FTR - +1.4 OBPM - -0.3 DBPM
Season 2: 17.3 PTS - 4.4 REB - 2.7 AST - 51.6% TS - 34.7% 3PT - 14.3 PER - 29.1% 3 PTAR - 18.6% FTR - +0.6 OBPM - -1.4 DBPM
Season 3: 18.3 PTS - 3.7 REB - 3.0 AST - 52.5% TS - 31.4% 3PT - 13.4 PER - 32.1% 3 PTAR - 16.9% FTR - -0.6 OBPM - -2.9 DBPM

As you can see he has regressed across the board except for a slight uptick in volume scoring. His efficiency has dropped, he has declined since showing an encouraging improvement in his 3 point shooting last season and now a days he is taking more 3s while shooting worse and his free throw rate has dropped calamitously indicating that he is driving less and taking more jumpers. His already mediocre defense has regressed steadily and he is quite possibly the worst defensive guard in the league who's not vertically challenged like Isiah Thomas.

Put him next to the other two and Jimbo and Mitch would have hamstrung the franchise to the extent of $182 mil in one offseason.

Can't most of your gripes be explained by his playing way more backup PG as a rookie?
-Took less/better/closer shots = better efficiency
-Was shooting over smaller defender = better 3 point percentage
-Now less ball dominant = more jumpers = less free throws
-Now playing against starting SGs as opposed to back up PGs= harder to guard defensively

[Princeinrevolt]

He was playing w/ Lou Williams, who was having a career year, so I don't think we should base it off his stats. He has been much better since the All Star break w/ Lou Williams gone.

[driver]

His numbers are pretty much the same but his abilities have allowed him to adapt the same skills to Byron and Luke's offense.
I believe his penetration to the basket has gotten better and he's much more capable with floaters, finger-rolls, etc. The biggest disappointment for me is his 3pt %. He doesn't seem able to hit wide open shots.

What he needs to improve on is his vision on drive and kicks. When his shot doesn't sink, doing that would free up lots of people. He's very capable of doing it, he just seems to prefer trying his damnedest to put the ball in himself.

[danfantastk32]

I think it depends on the context of his performances. How does his "stats' compare to the top 3 players on other 20 win teams?

I don't agree with the logic there at all. I don't want to be a 20-win team. I don't want to think like 20-win teams, and have our players compared to 20-win teams. Step back: We have the same salary cap as every other team....we have the same amount of players. Why should we be handicapped like that? That makes no sense. $12mi to us, is $12mil to the Spurs. All 30 teams are trying to win a title. I'd like to hope it's not 29...and the Lakers shooting for 20-wins.

Slava: I think that you are prob correct that we have another weight tied to us. But I wouldn't quite call them the same for 2 reasons: A)He is still young, and theoretically going upwards. B)He was doing alright, and making progress, when they made the deal. I personally feel like very little progress was made for any of our players this year. So I'm not sure it's all because of him.

To me....Deng/Moz were obvious bonehead deals for aging guys that were way too long. The Clarkson deal didn't pan out like they had hoped (so far) but you can at least understand where they were coming from. They were betting on growth. Gambling on a 20year old is totally different than a 32 year old.

[Slava]

Seeing as how he has not made any significant leaps in any statistical category from last season to this one and the fact that he is owed $42 mil over the next 3 seasons for being an inefficient bench scorer with poor defensive tendencies, is it time to lump him alongside Mozgov and Deng as a bad contract?

Per 36 & Advanced Stats:

Season 1: 17.1 PTS - 4.7 REB - 5.0 AST - 52.8% TS - 31.4% 3PT - 16.9 PER - 20.3% 3 3PTAR - 26.5 % FTR - +1.4 OBPM - -0.3 DBPM
Season 2: 17.3 PTS - 4.4 REB - 2.7 AST - 51.6% TS - 34.7% 3PT - 14.3 PER - 29.1% 3 PTAR - 18.6% FTR - +0.6 OBPM - -1.4 DBPM
Season 3: 18.3 PTS - 3.7 REB - 3.0 AST - 52.5% TS - 31.4% 3PT - 13.4 PER - 32.1% 3 PTAR - 16.9% FTR - -0.6 OBPM - -2.9 DBPM

As you can see he has regressed across the board except for a slight uptick in volume scoring. His efficiency has dropped, he has declined since showing an encouraging improvement in his 3 point shooting last season and now a days he is taking more 3s while shooting worse and his free throw rate has dropped calamitously indicating that he is driving less and taking more jumpers. His already mediocre defense has regressed steadily and he is quite possibly the worst defensive guard in the league who's not vertically challenged like Isiah Thomas.

Put him next to the other two and Jimbo and Mitch would have hamstrung the franchise to the extent of $182 mil in one offseason.

Can't most of your gripes be explained by his playing way more backup PG as a rookie?
-Took less/better/closer shots = better efficiency
-Was shooting over smaller defender = better 3 point percentage
-Now less ball dominant = more jumpers = less free throws
-Now playing against starting SGs as opposed to back up PGs= harder to guard defensively

His usage has been nearly constant but I do agree using him as strictly a back up PG in limited minutes with a shorter leash might do him more good. The problem is that he is being paid starter money to be playing only 10-15 mins a game.

[Marionettetc]

I say no based on the current cap environment of the NBA, but I wouldn't say he's positive value. I have it at net neutral.

[Landsberger]

I think it depends on the context of his performances. How does his "stats' compare to the top 3 players on other 20 win teams?

I don't agree with the logic there at all. I don't want to be a 20-win team. I don't want to think like 20-win teams, and have our players compared to 20-win teams. Step back: We have the same salary cap as every other team....we have the same amount of players. Why should we be handicapped like that? That makes no sense. $12mi to us, is $12mil to the Spurs. All 30 teams are trying to win a title. I'd like to hope it's not 29...and the Lakers shooting for 20-wins.

That's not the point. My point is that stats are situational and the ones supposed showing that he's a worse player this year than last are not in of themselves an indication of that.

A hypothetical situation where he's on the Spurs let's say.... does anyone think he'd have the same stat line? That's my point. This team stinks. When he's the best player on the floor (second unit) he's not going to be as effective as when he's the second or 3rd best player on the floor.

He's under our control and he's at one of the shallowest positions we have as well. He should be lower on the list of players we dump IMO.

This board is truly interesting at times. Clarkson can do no right and Russell can do no wrong. The fan base has become player fans it seems. I just don't see Clarkson as something we need to fix to get to the next level. He should be one of the least of our problems. He is what he is and by today's standards he's most likely under paid. Who would we sign to replace him that would cost less and provide what he does if we attach him to Mozgov or Deng just to dump them?

[Princeinrevolt]

This board is truly interesting at times. Clarkson can do no right and Russell can do no wrong.

lmao.

[ROballer]

No team that plays him close or over 30 mins, like we are now...is gonna be anywhere close to the playoffs, in every scenario, ever.
He's peaked already, he's not getting better than this. He's a bench guy, but not a 6th man type who gets to see close to starting minutes off the bench.

A backup guard, 15-20 mins AT MOST, not a single second more. The days in which D'Angelo or the guard we will draft this year(Ball or Fultz) have to split minutes so that this guy can get his minutes should be long gone, and Luke should know this, and if he doesn't, someone higher in the pecking order should tell him the **** that.

Jordan Clarkson is not a player worth splitting minutes for. Period. He's not good enough for that. He can take the scraps out of the bone, while the real good players, and the real potential future stars get the biggest chunk of the meat.

If I ever see Jordan Clarkson play more minutes than Russell or Ball/Fultz, next year, I'll be on the "Fire Luke" bandwagon, cause that **** is wrong on so many levels.

[danfantastk32]

This board is truly interesting at times. Clarkson can do no right and Russell can do no wrong. The fan base has become player fans it seems. I just don't see Clarkson as something we need to fix to get to the next level. He should be one of the least of our problems.

I hear that, and agree for the most part. Although I think the gist of the question was if he was a "bad contract". In a vacuum, I think he is...but I hear what your saying. To your point: I do think Clarkson is the least of our worries.

I think I've been pretty fair. The huge bulk of the team is young. I think Clarkson was great find in the 2nd round, and he's always come with that level of expectation for me. But now he got a big-boy contract...so I'm gonna judge him as a big boy. That's more than fair, right? I think Russell and Randle have room to grow, but I feel both players failed to make a big step this season. Not writing them off....but fairly unimpressed this year. I've certainly written as much several times around here. Ingram had a pretty terrible year, IMO. He's scrawny as f** so lets give him some time to bulk up.....but I don't think anyone would say he had a great rookie year. Some nice flashes of his potential, and I'm excited about what he could be. But was I "happy" with his rookie year? Not really. I've got a bit of a man-crush on Zubac....and I think he's shown some real potential. That said...the sample size is small.....and big men have to make it through a couple years without trashing their knees/feet before you allow yourself to really get excited.

Honestly, this team is a 20-win hunk of dog-meat that made ZERO improvement defensively, and had a nice start, but then just ran in circles for the last 60 games. We went NOWHERE. I think some of that has fall on Luke. We literally just ran in circles after that start. No adjustments....nobody really improving. Nobody took it apon themselves to lead...to commit to defense....just zilch. So I can't imagine how anyone can be really happy with anyone on this team. But somehow we're at $94mil in salary. So it's clearly getting wasted left, and right.

If this is what we get out of Clarkson the next 3 seasons....then I'd consider it a bad contract. But at least he's still on the uphill. So let's see if he can come back with a little more next time.

[Landsberger]

This board is truly interesting at times. Clarkson can do no right and Russell can do no wrong. The fan base has become player fans it seems. I just don't see Clarkson as something we need to fix to get to the next level. He should be one of the least of our problems.

I hear that, and agree for the most part. Although I think the gist of the question was if he was a "bad contract". In a vacuum, I think he is...but I hear what your saying. To your point: I do think Clarkson is the least of our worries.

What was the alternative last summer? If we hadn't signed Moz and Deng would this question be relevant? If's and buts....

Would be have Houston's first rounder? We might still have Lou if we didn't have Clarkson.

My larger point in all of these "transaction" threads is that we should and I believe will look at reworking this team from a compatibility standpoint. Just because the luck of the draw gave us Randle, Nance, Clarkson, Russell, Ingram and Zubac it doesn't mean that they make a compatible team inside an effective scheme. At some point you have to build a true team. To me Clarkson isn't the one that stands out as not meshing that well if his role is a support player off the bench. It's Randle to me who seems to be out of sync now that Zubac has emerged. We need shooters and a stretch 4 who could play defense would be a great addition. Randle and Zubac will have contract decisions coming up very soon as well.

If we want to talk contracts lets talk Nick Young. Do we re-sign him? How much and for how long? A 3 year deal with him could cost 6 million in this new spiraling up CBA world. To me that would be necessary if we "dumped" Clarkson's contract to get rid of Deng or Moz. It seems to keep perpetuating.

[danfantastk32]

If we want to talk contracts lets talk Nick Young. Do we re-sign him? How much and for how long? A 3 year deal with him could cost 6 million in this new spiraling up CBA world. To me that would be necessary if we "dumped" Clarkson's contract to get rid of Deng or Moz. It seems to keep perpetuating.

I don't know about Young. Some good value there. But he's gonna have to come cheap.

I think the overall point Slava was bringing up...is that for the next 3 seasons we have $46mil tied up in Mozgov/Deng/Clarkson. The new cap is supposed to be $102mil, with a $122 luxury cap. So I mean...your looking at damn near half your salary tied up on what?

You can't have $46 mil in salary spoken for without a single solid starter to show for it. Not if you wanna be any good.

So this really throws a wrench in plans. How much can you really spend on more "bench"?? We gotta start looking for starter-level players. If we do get our lottery pick, and sign Ball....that (should) slide DLo to the 2. So that takes some pressure off. But thats alot of "ifs". It also comes with the complete assumption he's this great player.

[MrWaffles]

I'd say his contract is a steal compared to what Deng and Mozgov provide for us each night.

That being said, he hasn't shown that much sign of growth. At said, I don't take too much into this season since we have been taking since the first week of December. The boys know it and I wouldn't expect them to try (sad I know).

Lets see Jordan on a real team. I'm all for trading him in a package with Mozgov or Deng

[Landsberger]

If we want to talk contracts lets talk Nick Young. Do we re-sign him? How much and for how long? A 3 year deal with him could cost 6 million in this new spiraling up CBA world. To me that would be necessary if we "dumped" Clarkson's contract to get rid of Deng or Moz. It seems to keep perpetuating.

I don't know about Young. Some good value there. But he's gonna have to come cheap.

I think the overall point Slava was bringing up...is that for the next 3 seasons we have $46mil tied up in Mozgov/Deng/Clarkson. The new cap is supposed to be $102mil, with a $122 luxury cap. So I mean...your looking at damn near half your salary tied up on what?

You can't have $46 mil in salary spoken for without a single solid starter to show for it. Not if you wanna be any good.

So this really throws a wrench in plans. How much can you really spend on more "bench"?? We gotta start looking for starter-level players. If we do get our lottery pick, and sign Ball....that (should) slide DLo to the 2. So that takes some pressure off. But thats alot of "ifs". It also comes with the complete assumption he's this great player.

With this rising salary cap it will also afford very good teams to get top FA's. It seems a moot point to me in a lot of ways. It's not like Clarkson's contract will keep us from getting a top FA if a top 8 team has a slot open as well. Raising the cap is not as good as some think. Magic will have to live up to his name if we can actually get someone to turn down a better situation to come to a 20 win team of youngsters. I think to get the FA stars we will have to also trade to get other stars. If that's the case then Clarkson's contract may be well worth it's price.

This "bad" contract idea... will Randle join this group when we have to re-sign him after next season? It seemed like he just took the top 3 contracts and lumped them together while 2 are vets with deteriorating games and one is a young guy who still has 10+ years in front of him as a contributor. In 2 years we will have other guys who've been re-signed and if we are still a 30 to 35 win team will those be bad contracts? They are all bad contracts on a 20 win team aren't they from a certain perspective.

[SlimShady83]

Each year since his first he has been used the wrong way. Keeps benched in favour of the likes, Meeks, Russell and next next year will be Ball no doubt.

He is improving, sure the inconsistency is there, but a lot of players have that. Keeping in mind as well he was a 2nd round draft pic ...

Keep JC please