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DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball

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DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#1 » by darealjuice » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:52 pm

Hey guys, here's round 6 of the draft series I've been doing, Lonzo Ball. I like Lonzo a lot, he's a great point guard and I, like most Suns fans, am a sucker for pass first point guards. Like Josh Jackson and his car problems, I didn't go into LaVar because I don't think it'll have a huge effect on his draft stock and I don't see him dropping much. It's a bit tough to talk about Lonzo's passing game without saying "he's a great passer" a hundred times, you really have to watch him to see the accuracy and the court vision because it's very impressive, so it might sound like I'm harping a lot on the unattractive parts of his game without giving love for how much of an impact he has on his teammates, but I do think highly of Lonzo. Hope you guys enjoy, it's easy to see why a lot of people are between bust and star with him.

Lonzo Ball – University of California, Los Angeles (Fr.)
Age on Draft Day: 19 years, 7 months
Height: 6’ 6” (according to recent DX article)
Wingspan: 6’ 9” (according to recent DX article)
Standing Reach: 8’ 4.75” (last measurement in 2014)

Other Recommended Content:
Lakers Film Room Lonzo Ball Scouting Report

Offense
:

Defense:

Draft Express Profile on Lonzo Ball
couldn't find kennydorglas' chart lol

Introduction

Lonzo Ball was undoubtedly one of the most exciting prospects to come into college basketball this year. With the point guard position trending toward a ball-dominant, scoring/passing combination role, Lonzo Ball’s unselfishness moving the ball and mesmerizing passing skills were a breath of fresh air. The arrival of Lonzo Ball and TJ Leaf at UCLA drove a team that struggled heavily the previous year into one of the best offenses in college basketball, due in large part to the tempo that Lonzo pushes the team at and the shooters that he has around him. Lonzo has a lot to offer at the next level: contagious unselfish ball movement, elite measurements for his position, excellent court vision and playmaking skills, efficient shot making and selection in college, and elite basketball IQ. He runs the fast break as well as any guard in college basketball, rarely turns the ball over, and rewards players for running the floor. In my opinion, his biggest impact on the floor is something that doesn’t necessarily show up on the stat sheet: the pace he pushes the team at. A lot of guards love to bring the ball up the court slowly and let their offense get set up, but at UCLA the players are constantly running the floor and stretching the defense. Regardless of if it’s a steal, a rebound, or a made basket, the second Lonzo gets the ball he’s rewarding them by pushing the ball up with the pass or speed dribbling into the paint, drawing defenders, and finding shooters on the perimeter. The pace that he plays at and the shots he takes are perfect for the modern, fast-paced, analytics-oriented style of basketball that is being played right now.

The issue with Ball wasn’t productivity in college; his effect on the game is undeniable. The question for Ball is whether he can do the same things at the next level. It’s very well documented that Ball has a very unorthodox shooting motion; he brings the ball from his hip to his left shoulder with his shooting hand on the side of the ball, before shifting his shooting hand under the ball and flicking it up from the center of his body with his hips rotated so that the right side is pointed at the basket. For basketball purists, it’s nothing short of an abomination. The shooting motion is long with a lot of moving parts, the release point is low, and if he wasn’t wide open on the perimeter he was shooting from 4 feet behind the arc where the defender wasn’t pressuring him. Forget about shooting off the dribble; the only way he’s going to have time to pull up is if he’s stepping back to the perimeter, and the only direction he’s comfortable hitting a step back from is going left because he contorts his body so much in his shooting motion that he’d need a 90+ degree forward rotation of his right hip to square up to the basket how he likes. Another question is if he’s going to be able to get into the paint and create offense in the half-court in the NBA. He’s fantastic in the open court, but his handles are not as refined as you would like from a lead guard, and he’s not very quick/explosive from a stand-still and he doesn’t have a lot of the “shake” to his crossovers that you saw from the guards he’s compared to, so it’s tough to say if he’ll be able to get into the paint in the NBA when he wasn’t extremely successful at it in college basketball. It’s whether all of that matters that’s up for debate. Will he need to be uncovered 4 feet behind the NBA 3-point line to get his shot off clean, and can he make that consistently if so? Does he even need to have a mid-range/pull-up jump shot when mid-range shots are the least efficient shot in basketball? Did being surrounded by knock down shooters and big men help bolster his assist numbers? Is he going to have trouble getting his shot off in catch-and-shoot scenarios once more athletic NBA defenders figure out his shooting motion? Can most point guards even block his shot when he’s 6’6” with long arms? Is a point guard that isn’t very good at creating his own shot worth a top pick in the draft even if he’s an elite passer? I think that’s a big part of what makes Lonzo Ball so tough to project: parts of his game are so unorthodox that it’s tough to draw conclusions on if he’ll be able to transfer his skills, because at first glance a 6’6” freshman point guard playing for a winning team averaging 15/6/8 on 67 eFG% in a solid basketball conference would look like a no brainer.

Offensive Ability

Lonzo Ball was extremely efficient in just about every aspect of the game. His TS% was a ridiculous 67% with a 65.2% eFG%, he had a 78.9 FG% at the rim and 41.2 3PT% on great volume, and even in non-transition attempts at the rim he was at 71% despite very low volume for his position. He was so efficient that he had the sixth highest effective field goal percentage and fifth highest offensive BPM in college basketball. A lot of Lonzo’s success comes out of transition, which accounted for approximately 30% of his possessions, where he showed the ability to get into the paint, accurately hit shooters on the perimeter, push the ball with the pass, and find cutters at the rim, and even be a lob target himself. He is perfect for the fast-paced style of basketball that is becoming more common in the NBA, as he is best operating in transition where he had a 4 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. With his rebounding ability, he controls the pace of the game and can push the ball hard off the dribble or pass to flip the court quickly to force the defense to have guys back and defend every single time. His shot selection is very analytically-favorable, as only 26 of his 343 attempted shots this season not at the rim or 3-point shots, with 194 3-point shots and 123 shots at the rim on the season.

The lack of mid-range game in college does make me worry he isn’t creating a lot of his own offense. The worry is only reinforced by the fact that over 50% of his made shots at the rim were assisted compared to Fultz at 17.4%, Smith Jr at 20%, and Fox at 19.6%, along with Lonzo averaging less than 2 non-transition attempts at the rim per game this season, compared to Fultz and 5.8 and Fox at 4.36. Some of the difference can be explained by Lonzo looking to find shooters over scoring for himself, but in the current NBA it’s important for the primary ball handler to be able to create offense for themselves and their team. It’s going to be difficult for Lonzo to do that when he can only shoot off the dribble by going left, and he only has the time and space to get his shot off when he’s taking a deep step back. If he’s not willing to work on his form, or reworking it doesn’t work out well, then he would seriously benefit from adding a floater to his game to make him a threat from mid-range so teams don’t just run him off the 3-point line.

Passing

Lonzo is the definition of a pass first point guard. He was excellent in transition, he sees the floor extremely well, he commands the floor and keeps the ball moving, and he makes the game easier for everyone around him. He had the second-best assist rate in all of college basketball and facilitated UCLAs transition to becoming a top tier offense. The ball never sticks with Lonzo, he’s constantly pushing the ball up into transition when his team runs the floor, and he always knows where the open shooter is. He has the ability to turn a made basket into a quick transition bucket if the defense doesn’t catch a run out. The thing that impresses me most with Lonzo’s passing is how he hits the target in the shooting pocket every time, regardless of if he’s attacking in transition, going to the basket, or swinging the ball on the perimeter. He needs to improve on his pick and roll game, it’s a major component of every NBA offense and he didn’t show much of a pocket pass game with the roll man. In addition, while his assist number are impressive regardless of setting, I do feel like his assist numbers benefited from having knock down shooters and scoring big men around him. Regardless, he is clearly a very gifted, contagious passer and the best at it in this draft.

Ball Handling

I feel that Ball needs to improve his ball handling before he can be a primary ball handler in the NBA. He’s fine pushing the ball in transition and bringing the ball up, but his dribble is a bit high for my liking right now, he struggled against defensive pressure, doesn’t have a lot of craftiness or shake to his 1-on-1 game, and he needs a lot of work as a pick and roll ball handler. In pick and roll scenarios he wouldn’t come off the screen tight enough to turn the corner and get into the paint before the help could get to him, leading to an ineffective pick and roll where the big man helps until Lonzo’s defender recovers through the screen and he can take away the roll man. For a guy that’s compared to Jason Kidd and Steve Nash, I don’t see a lot of craftiness or shake to his crossovers, and he doesn’t get the defender moving side to side to create angles to the paint very well. He’s very rigid when he’s going one-on-one, while guys like Nash use a lot of hesitation and body and head feints with their crossovers to sell it better. I think that he might be very predictable once an NBA scouting report is put together on him. He very visibly shies away from going right if he isn’t getting to the basket because he knows he can’t pull up going right, and if you can stay in front of him when he’s going left then he’ll inevitably go to his step back jump shot or pass the ball. The fact that he averaged just under 2 non-transition attempts at the rim, compared to his competition Markelle Fultz averaging 5.8 non-transition attempts at the rim a game makes me think that he's not able to beat the defense to the rim off the dribble in the half court.

Defense

Ball was a bit of a mixed bag when it came to defense against NBA prospects this year. He played a very good defensive game against Markelle Fultz and made it difficult for him to make plays and get shots off when he was on him, and he did a good job switching on to Dillon Brooks after he was torching them all game, but De’Aaron Fox made things very difficult for Ball in their first matchup at Rupp and torched him the second time they played in the NCAA Tournament. As long as he isn’t getting torched like Fox did every night I think he’ll be fine as far as on-ball defense, because a lot of NBA guards are just too good to guard one-on-one these days, and you pretty much have to hope they have an off day or they’re getting theirs. Off ball defense is where Ball really needs to make an impact, he has the basketball IQ and length to play the passing lanes, be a good help defender, and hit the boards to prevent second chance points, and him being active off the ball will only create turnovers and rebounds to help push the pace on offense more.

Fit with the Phoenix Suns

It’s tough to picture the Suns drafting Lonzo Ball without Eric Bledsoe being on his way out the door, especially with rumors going around that Rich Paul told the Suns to trade Bledsoe if they draft a point guard. Ball and Booker has the potential to be a very exciting offensive duo, where Booker would be the go-to scorer late in the shot clock and Ball can push the ball, facilitate the offense, and hit open 3-point shots. I think Ball would be a good fit with the young players in Phoenix with Ulis being a great backup that can also be on the floor with him, TJ and Booker being good off-ball scorers, Chriss and DJJ as lob targets, and Booker, Chriss, and (hopefully) Bender being good outside shooters. At the very least, that would be an exciting offensive team to watch develop, and hopefully they can develop into a good defensive team as well.

Conclusion

A lot of Ball’s success in the league depends on if his shot can translate to the NBA and if he can defend NBA guards. I have no doubt in his ability to run a successful fast paced offense, but he needs to be more than just a great passer to be worth a top pick. At this point he’s about an average defender at the college level, with some good showings against guys like Dillon Brooks and some struggles against athletic guards like De’Aaron Fox, and I think he’s going to struggle a bit at the start when a lot of NBA guards are as quick as Fox is and he’s going to be running through ball screens and getting attacked every possession. I like Ball’s game a lot and if you made me bet on if he’ll bust or not right now I’d say he’ll be fine. With that said, my fear with him is that if his shot doesn’t translate to the NBA as well as hoped, he can’t defend NBA guards at an average/above-average level, and/or he isn’t quick/crafty enough to get into the paint and create offense consistently, then what makes him different from guys that are great facilitators but struggle to score like (worst case) Kendall Marshall or (better scenario) Ricky Rubio? The team that picks him toward the top of the draft will have to have a strong feeling that his shot translates, because it’d be tough to justify a non-scoring playmaker as a top 3 pick in the draft.


Well, I had originally started this to cover what was considered the top 6 by most people around here, since we were looking to be the 3rd worst record with the 6th pick being our worst possible pick, but now we've moved up and can only drop to 5, so I did one extra lol. I'll do a couple between now and the draft on whoever gets requested the most in this post, but I'm not going to guarantee any time frames right now. They might take awhile depending on how much I can find on them and how much I watched them this season. Hope you guys enjoyed, like I said I really like Lonzo Ball, but he also scares the **** out of me for a top pick with that ugly shot, lack of shot creating, and questions on if he can defend point guards.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#2 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:30 pm

Another awesome write up DRJ!

Question for you: What do you think of the pass-first PG's we've seen come into the league in the past half decade or so? We have drafted our share of pass-first leader type PG's (Marshall, Ennis) which you've touched on, who haven't really panned out with us or with any other team. Hindsight is 20/20 but what do you see in Ball that gives him a heads up over pass-first PG's the NBA has drafted in the past?
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#3 » by darealjuice » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:30 am

lilfishi22 wrote:Another awesome write up DRJ!

Question for you: What do you think of the pass-first PG's we've seen come into the league in the past half decade or so? We have drafted our share of pass-first leader type PG's (Marshall, Ennis) which you've touched on, who haven't really panned out with us or with any other team. Hindsight is 20/20 but what do you see in Ball that gives him a heads up over pass-first PG's the NBA has drafted in the past?


That's a good question, not really easy to answer either. I didn't think Ennis was going to be anything coming out of college, I figured he was another Syracuse guard that was an average defender at the college level being hidden by Boeheim's zone and I wasn't very impressed with his game on offense. I wasn't very happy when we picked him, and I clung to the rumor that we were trading him to the Raptors for awhile. I didn't like Kendall Marshall either, I thought he was a slow guard that couldn't score with a talented team around him.

What makes Ball different from pass-first guards like Marshall, Rubio, Ulis, etc? I think the first thing is that he's a different type of pass-first point guard because he's not as ball-dominant as those guys; at UCLA he was more about pushing the ball in transition and quick ball movement on the perimeter than continually probing with the ball and running pick and rolls, although I think he'll need to learn to play the pick and roll better in the NBA. His outside shot, assuming it translates and he can get it off cleanly, is also worlds ahead of those guys coming out of college, although I do have worries about him only being comfortable shooting off the dribble when he's going left. I also think he's better playing off the ball and acting as a secondary playmaker than any of them because of that shooting ability. His size and length should make him a better, more versatile defender in the NBA even though he struggled against elite quickness/athleticism in college. That's part of what scares me: one of the main things that separates him from them is his shooting, and if his funky shooting motion and low release hold him back at the next level then the only difference is he's taller, has no mid-range game, and doesn't pound the air out of the ball.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#4 » by RaisingArizona » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:01 am

I think Ball is the pick and I'm good with it.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#5 » by itlnsunsfan » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:04 am

What I like:
Basketball IQ
Passing ability
Length
Shooting efficiency
Style of play (made for today's NBA)

What is the main weakness we've seen in many of the recent pass first point guards that have entered the league? Defenses can sag off guys like Kendall Marshall, Rondo, and Rubio because they can't hit an open shot. Leave Ball open from 3 and he'll murder you.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#6 » by itlnsunsfan » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:27 am

One thing I have not seen mentioned about Ball's shot. He may have a lower release point, but it's farther from the defender because it comes from his left hip, which is angled away and farther back. A shot that comes from the right hip is much closer to the defender and, thus, easier to block. (Of course, speaking in terms of a right handed shooter.)
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#7 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:36 am

darealjuice wrote:That's a good question, not really easy to answer either. I didn't think Ennis was going to be anything coming out of college, I figured he was another Syracuse guard that was an average defender at the college level being hidden by Boeheim's zone and I wasn't very impressed with his game on offense. I wasn't very happy when we picked him, and I clung to the rumor that we were trading him to the Raptors for awhile. I didn't like Kendall Marshall either, I thought he was a slow guard that couldn't score with a talented team around him.

What makes Ball different from pass-first guards like Marshall, Rubio, Ulis, etc? I think the first thing is that he's a different type of pass-first point guard because he's not as ball-dominant as those guys; at UCLA he was more about pushing the ball in transition and quick ball movement on the perimeter than continually probing with the ball and running pick and rolls, although I think he'll need to learn to play the pick and roll better in the NBA. His outside shot, assuming it translates and he can get it off cleanly, is also worlds ahead of those guys coming out of college, although I do have worries about him only being comfortable shooting off the dribble when he's going left. I also think he's better playing off the ball and acting as a secondary playmaker than any of them because of that shooting ability. His size and length should make him a better, more versatile defender in the NBA even though he struggled against elite quickness/athleticism in college. That's part of what scares me: one of the main things that separates him from them is his shooting, and if his funky shooting motion and low release hold him back at the next level then the only difference is he's taller, has no mid-range game, and doesn't pound the air out of the ball.

Good answer. I'm not sure if it's a controversial thing to say or not but is Ball's talent on display because of the team he had or despite the team he had? I've only watched highlights and scouting videos but not full games. I do often read about the talent Ball plays with vs Fultz so I just want to know whether you think he'd be nearly as celebrated or as successful if he played on a less talented team like Fultz. One of the knocks on Fultz is despite dominating, his team just wasn't very successful but on the flip side if he can dominate despite playing on a poor team then he could very well still dominate on a solid team which could equate to team success. So the question is whether you think Ball would be as productive with a lesser team or if he's sort of a systems guy that can't show off his full game without a solid team around him?

My opinion is that the knock on Fultz is less concerning because it's always easier to build around someone who can dominate in spite of his team's talent level. Ball on the other hand, has always played on stacked teams and it's possible the team that drafts him could be the first bad team he's every played on and I think he's got very good skills but I'm not convinced he necessarily dominated with those skills. Great passers honestly aren't hard to find (as evidence of all the great pass-first PG's who never stayed in the NBA) but what elevates a great passer to a great player is all the other things. Nash was a great passer who also had elite shooting and ball handling. CP3 is a great passer who also had elite ball handling and scoring abilities. Wall is a great passer with elite ball handling, scoring ability and elite athleticism. I'm not so sure other parts of Ball's game convinces me he's #2 talent.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#8 » by itlnsunsfan » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:46 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
My opinion is that the knock on Fultz is less concerning because it's always easier to build around someone who can dominate in spite of his team's talent level. Ball on the other hand, has always played on stacked teams and it's possible the team that drafts him could be the first bad team he's every played on and I think he's got very good skills but I'm not convinced he necessarily dominated with those skills. Great passers honestly aren't hard to find (as evidence of all the great pass-first PG's who never stayed in the NBA) but what elevates a great passer to a great player is all the other things. Nash was a great passer who also had elite shooting and ball handling. CP3 is a great passer who also had elite ball handling and scoring abilities. Wall is a great passer with elite ball handling, scoring ability and elite athleticism. I'm not so sure other parts of Ball's game convinces me he's #2 talent.


I consider Kentucky a stacked team. I don't know if I consider UCLA a stacked team. How many first rounders are they putting out this year?
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#9 » by bwgood77 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:01 am

Great write up once again. Do you feel that just with his fast break court vision to hit that guy for those easy points, and his IQ, that picking him 3rd, say we land there and JJ and Fultz are gone?

Do you think we could allow him to run transition but use some of our other players to run the pick n roll when/if needed and he doesn't always have to be the primary ball handler (Booker is fine with this) in half court sets? Lonzo could just be a floor spreader if we need to set up in half court if he hasn't progressed in that department?

He's a winner, and I waiver on him big time. But there are reasons to waiver on all prospects.

Where do you rank him in relation to Dennis Smith Jr? Or Fox?

If you do another write up, I'd like to see something on Ntilikina if you can find enough stuff to watch from him. Any more you do obviously don't need to have this depth.

Maybe a short write up on the Kentucky guys..just brief of how they could contribute and if we should consider either one if we drop to 5.

Also, maybe just a brief maybe mention or small paragraph on options at 32 you think would be intriguing.

Those are my asks.

I kind of think, if we drop to say, 5, and want a PG prospect, and want to keep Bled for now, Ntilikina might be a great guy to pick, but I just don't know enough about the guy. He would need time to develop, so we keep Bled for a half year or year and let Frank and Ulis battle out.

OR, we go with Smith Jr. I am starting to think maybe Smith Jr should be 4th (if Ball is ahead) or if I waiver more on Ball, maybe 3rd. I just go back and forth on Ball of thinking he is a winner, and is smart and will do what it takes and we could use his skills as our ball movement has sucked (just having a PG initiate ball movement immediately would be fantastic) and not wanting any part of him.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#10 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:10 am

itlnsunsfan wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
My opinion is that the knock on Fultz is less concerning because it's always easier to build around someone who can dominate in spite of his team's talent level. Ball on the other hand, has always played on stacked teams and it's possible the team that drafts him could be the first bad team he's every played on and I think he's got very good skills but I'm not convinced he necessarily dominated with those skills. Great passers honestly aren't hard to find (as evidence of all the great pass-first PG's who never stayed in the NBA) but what elevates a great passer to a great player is all the other things. Nash was a great passer who also had elite shooting and ball handling. CP3 is a great passer who also had elite ball handling and scoring abilities. Wall is a great passer with elite ball handling, scoring ability and elite athleticism. I'm not so sure other parts of Ball's game convinces me he's #2 talent.


I consider Kentucky a stacked team. I don't know if I consider UCLA a stacked team. How many first rounders are they putting out this year?

Perhaps not stacked. But certainly there's a significant gap in talent between UCLA and Fultz's Huskies?
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#11 » by bwgood77 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:52 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
itlnsunsfan wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
My opinion is that the knock on Fultz is less concerning because it's always easier to build around someone who can dominate in spite of his team's talent level. Ball on the other hand, has always played on stacked teams and it's possible the team that drafts him could be the first bad team he's every played on and I think he's got very good skills but I'm not convinced he necessarily dominated with those skills. Great passers honestly aren't hard to find (as evidence of all the great pass-first PG's who never stayed in the NBA) but what elevates a great passer to a great player is all the other things. Nash was a great passer who also had elite shooting and ball handling. CP3 is a great passer who also had elite ball handling and scoring abilities. Wall is a great passer with elite ball handling, scoring ability and elite athleticism. I'm not so sure other parts of Ball's game convinces me he's #2 talent.


I consider Kentucky a stacked team. I don't know if I consider UCLA a stacked team. How many first rounders are they putting out this year?

Perhaps not stacked. But certainly there's a significant gap in talent between UCLA and Fultz's Huskies?


Well they were not so good last year, and just added him and Leaf for good players. He simply transformed the team and got the most out of everyone.

Last season was one of the most disappointing the Bruins have ever had. They finished 15-17, missed the NCAA tournament, and the fanbase grew visibly upset. They even flew a banner over campus asking for head coach Steve Alford to be fired.

This year, everything is different. UCLA is 31-4 and one of the most exciting teams in the country. The Bruins play fast, score at will, and rarely lose.

What's changed? It all comes back to freshman point guard Lonzo Ball.

Ball has completely transformed the Bruins in just one year. Ball is big, he's athletic, and he can hit shots all over the court. Yes, even with that bizarre shooting motion.

For all of his talent, Ball's best weapon in his mind.

The freshman is a basketball savant. He's leading the NCAA in assists per game and he has one of the highest true shooting percentages in the country. Every play Ball makes is a smart basketball play.

Ball's presence has had a tangible impact. UCLA was No. 51 in the country in offensive efficiency last year. Now No. 3. Last season UCLA ranked No. 73 in tempo. This year they're No. 14. He has the team playing faster, smarter, and more efficient.


http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2017/3/22/15021728/lonzo-ball-ucla-basketball-offense-ncaa-tournament-2017
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#12 » by itlnsunsfan » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:03 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
itlnsunsfan wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
My opinion is that the knock on Fultz is less concerning because it's always easier to build around someone who can dominate in spite of his team's talent level. Ball on the other hand, has always played on stacked teams and it's possible the team that drafts him could be the first bad team he's every played on and I think he's got very good skills but I'm not convinced he necessarily dominated with those skills. Great passers honestly aren't hard to find (as evidence of all the great pass-first PG's who never stayed in the NBA) but what elevates a great passer to a great player is all the other things. Nash was a great passer who also had elite shooting and ball handling. CP3 is a great passer who also had elite ball handling and scoring abilities. Wall is a great passer with elite ball handling, scoring ability and elite athleticism. I'm not so sure other parts of Ball's game convinces me he's #2 talent.


I consider Kentucky a stacked team. I don't know if I consider UCLA a stacked team. How many first rounders are they putting out this year?

Perhaps not stacked. But certainly there's a significant gap in talent between UCLA and Fultz's Huskies?


Yes, but you said Ball has always played on "stacked" teams. UCLA wasn't stacked. He elevated them to one of the best teams in the country.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#13 » by darealjuice » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:44 pm

itlnsunsfan wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
itlnsunsfan wrote:
I consider Kentucky a stacked team. I don't know if I consider UCLA a stacked team. How many first rounders are they putting out this year?

Perhaps not stacked. But certainly there's a significant gap in talent between UCLA and Fultz's Huskies?


Yes, but you said Ball has always played on "stacked" teams. UCLA wasn't stacked. He elevated them to one of the best teams in the country.


I would say UCLA was one of the most stacked teams in the country, and definitely in a similar tier to Kentucky. Lonzo will be a top 3 pick, and Ike Anigbogu and TJ Leaf will both get taken in the first round anywhere after the top 10 or so. Bryce Alford was a senior, the coaches son, and one of the best 3-point shooters in the country, Aaron Holiday is brother to Jrue and Justin Holiday and a solid player that accepted a role off the bench for Lonzo to start, Isaac Hamilton has been a solid scorer his entire college career, and Thomas Welsh was one of the best mid-range shooter centers in college basketball. Kentucky had Fox and Monk that'll be top 10 picks, Adebayo looks to be a late 1st/early 2nd rounder, and that's about it as far as NBA talent. I guess you could count Hamidou Diallo, who'll probably be a late first round pick if he signs with an agent, but he didn't play a game this year because he joined the team midseason after graduating high school early to be draft eligible this year.

Bringing in Lonzo elevated that UCLA team a lot, but part of that elevation is that they added an actual point guard to the roster instead of trotting out a shooter pretending to be the point guard in Bryce Alford. Just look at the insane increases in Alford's offensive efficiency once they took him off the ball and made him a full-time shooter. People also like to act like TJ Leaf doesn't exist when they talk about Lonzo's impact and how much better UCLA got; he was a 5-star recruit himself, was projected as a lottery pick at points this season, and was one of the most efficient scorers in college basketball this year. That's not to say Lonzo didn't elevate that them with how he plays, but he had a team team built very well for the style he plays.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#14 » by darealjuice » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:22 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Great write up once again. Do you feel that just with his fast break court vision to hit that guy for those easy points, and his IQ, that picking him 3rd, say we land there and JJ and Fultz are gone?

Do you think we could allow him to run transition but use some of our other players to run the pick n roll when/if needed and he doesn't always have to be the primary ball handler (Booker is fine with this) in half court sets? Lonzo could just be a floor spreader if we need to set up in half court if he hasn't progressed in that department?

He's a winner, and I waiver on him big time. But there are reasons to waiver on all prospects.

Where do you rank him in relation to Dennis Smith Jr? Or Fox?


I don't know to be honest. If he's all playmaking and can't shoot at all in the NBA for some reason, then I'd say he's not going to be worth the top 3 pick. I think he'll be successful as a spot up shooter, but the idea of a spot up shooting, elite passing PG with no intermediate game, poor shot creation skills, and a lack of ability to beat his man off the dribble and get into the paint doesn't scream top pick to me either. I really don't think he's going to be doing a lot of shooting off the dribble in the NBA; teams are going to realize pretty quickly that he can't/doesn't comfortably shoot jump shots when he's going right and they'll just play his left hand hard.

As for him not being a primary ball handler in the half court, I could see that working because he's a good spot up shooter and is very good at making quick passes to shooters off the catch. I do think that he could function off the ball with Booker or Ulis handling it in the half court, but that begs the questions of if a guy that is a transition specialist and didn't look like a primary ball hander in the pick and roll dominant NBA is worth a top pick in the draft?

I posted my top 10 right now in the draft thread, but to answer your question I have him in the same tier and one spot of head of Smith Jr (Ball at 3 and Smith Jr at 4) and Fox a tier below that.

If you do another write up, I'd like to see something on Ntilikina if you can find enough stuff to watch from him. Any more you do obviously don't need to have this depth.

Maybe a short write up on the Kentucky guys..just brief of how they could contribute and if we should consider either one if we drop to 5.

Also, maybe just a brief maybe mention or small paragraph on options at 32 you think would be intriguing.

Those are my asks.


I do want to put one together for Ntilikina, I'm going to look hard for some tape over the next few days and see what I can do. Monk and Fox are a good idea too, I'll do at least one of them. I'll also definitely put together some options I like at 32, especially since I have a few in mind already.

I kind of think, if we drop to say, 5, and want a PG prospect, and want to keep Bled for now, Ntilikina might be a great guy to pick, but I just don't know enough about the guy. He would need time to develop, so we keep Bled for a half year or year and let Frank and Ulis battle out.

OR, we go with Smith Jr. I am starting to think maybe Smith Jr should be 4th (if Ball is ahead) or if I waiver more on Ball, maybe 3rd. I just go back and forth on Ball of thinking he is a winner, and is smart and will do what it takes and we could use his skills as our ball movement has sucked (just having a PG initiate ball movement immediately would be fantastic) and not wanting any part of him.


Ntilikina would definitely need time to develop and fill out. My only worry with drafting him is that team's will know we're grooming Ntilikina and Bledsoe might have less trade value because teams will assume he'll walk if we don't trade him. I know a bit about him, but not enough to be confident having him in my top 5.

I have trouble between Smith Jr and Ball sometimes too for similar reasons. I prefer Ball right now, but Smith Jr reminds me of current Bledsoe play style with pre-injury Bledsoe athleticism, which is both good and bad because I like Bledsoe but I also would like to see more ball movement and less ball pounding in our offense.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#15 » by rsavaj » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:35 pm

main things that worry me are his surprisingly mediocre PnR play and the fact that he really doesn't get to the rim as a ballhandler....dude is a great cutter and finishes well as an off-ball player, but I'm not sold on his ability to be a lead guard in the NBA

really hope all the "Suns like Ball > Fultz" stuff isn't true
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#16 » by darealjuice » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:46 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:Good answer. I'm not sure if it's a controversial thing to say or not but is Ball's talent on display because of the team he had or despite the team he had? I've only watched highlights and scouting videos but not full games. I do often read about the talent Ball plays with vs Fultz so I just want to know whether you think he'd be nearly as celebrated or as successful if he played on a less talented team like Fultz. One of the knocks on Fultz is despite dominating, his team just wasn't very successful but on the flip side if he can dominate despite playing on a poor team then he could very well still dominate on a solid team which could equate to team success. So the question is whether you think Ball would be as productive with a lesser team or if he's sort of a systems guy that can't show off his full game without a solid team around him?

My opinion is that the knock on Fultz is less concerning because it's always easier to build around someone who can dominate in spite of his team's talent level. Ball on the other hand, has always played on stacked teams and it's possible the team that drafts him could be the first bad team he's every played on and I think he's got very good skills but I'm not convinced he necessarily dominated with those skills. Great passers honestly aren't hard to find (as evidence of all the great pass-first PG's who never stayed in the NBA) but what elevates a great passer to a great player is all the other things. Nash was a great passer who also had elite shooting and ball handling. CP3 is a great passer who also had elite ball handling and scoring abilities. Wall is a great passer with elite ball handling, scoring ability and elite athleticism. I'm not so sure other parts of Ball's game convinces me he's #2 talent.


I think his strengths were definitely highlighted by the players around him. He's an excellent passer no doubt, but he had very good scorers/shooters around him in Bryce Alford, TJ Leaf, Aaron Holiday, and Isaac Hamilton, with Thomas Welsch also being a very good mid-range shooter and Ike Anigbogu being a big, long lob target at center. It's really though to say how he'd fair on a team without shooters, it's really all "what if" and speculation. UCLA was a very bad team down the stretch last year, but they were always solid at putting points on the board. I think a lot of last year's problems were fixed in part due to players moving to more natural positions and bringing in a couple of very good recruits, but obviously the way Lonzo plays helped bring their offense to a new level. I'd just be a bit surprised if he could do the same with Washington because of the disparity of talent outside of Ball and Fultz.

I agree with a lot of what you said though. I think he needs more than elite passing and height/length to be worth a top 3 pick, and right now he's not a great ball handler, not an elite defender at his position, about an average athlete, and it's tough to project how versatile he'll be as a scorer with his funky shooting motion.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#17 » by RaisingArizona » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:57 pm

I see Jkidd 2.0 all over him. Kidd had baggage too and that is okay. Not every player is going to be a saint.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#18 » by Walt_Uoob » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:37 pm

Ball is growing on me again. When I think of his lack of mid-range game and awkward shot I start to sour on him, but then when I look at the results I see it more as a guy who knows his strengths and weaknesses. I do think it could work to have him alongside Booker with Ball pushing in transition and then Booker running the P&R and ISOs when necessary, at which point Ball becomes a cutter and spot-up shooter, two things he's clearly good at.

Maybe the way to think about him is during the first part of the shot clock, the latter half, and then defense. Who is he in each of those? Jason Kidd for ten seconds, then almost more of a SF with good shooting and court vision for the next 14 seconds, and then a decent and lanky but not lock-down defender on the other side of the ball? With Booker on the 3-pt line for the first 10, probing and creating with the ball in his hands for the next 14 (I mean, I'm not actually hoping every possession goes 24 seconds, of course), and hopefully improving some as a defender, the two could work out okay together.

But I'd still definitely put him behind Fultz and Jackson and would listen closely to trade offers if we end up at #3 and he's on the board. In that situation if we could trade down and end up with Ntilikina and Isaac or some combo like that, I probably do it.
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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#19 » by rsavaj » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:21 pm

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Re: DarealJuice Draft Series Part 6: Lonzo Ball 

Post#20 » by Damkac » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:46 pm

Ball fits like a glove in the Suns roster. He would thrive surrounded by all the scorers. He don't need mid range shooting or pick'n'roll as we have other player that can do this.
But dealing with his dad for many years in the future.... :banghead:

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