Summer of 05'...

[Hook_Em]

Sorry to rehash these dark times but I was randomly looking back on that off-season and had a few questions.

Why did the Lakers break up the core of Kobe (26), Odom (25) and Butler (24) who just came off a career year after coming over from Miami?

They would've had a superstar in his prime along with two young studs in Odom/Butler also with just having drafted a high ceiling HS kid in Bynum.

After the draft they turn around and flip Butler for Kwame. What was the point of that? Did they view him as the stopgap center until Bynum was ready? Did they not want to pay all three guys? (iirc Lakers had their Bird rights)...

They had just brought back Phil as well but that was before the draft and traded. Did he know Fisher would opt out? Did he know they were going with a rebuild? Did management think guys like Smush, Kwame, Mihm, Luke and Sasha were solid enough to compliment Kobe and Lamar?

Obviously it worked out in the long run but it nearly drove Kobe to demand a trade and Phil to resign. So I was just curious about the feanchise's direction that summer... thx!

[Slava]

The Butler for Kwame trade was motivated by needing a post defender as we were still in the dark days where Kwame was considered the starting PF and Odom was the starting SF with Butler coming off the bench. Odom was never as SF, except people in those days did not understand his versatility properly until D'Antoni made smaller line ups more mainstream. Even Phil went smaller with Kwame at Center after Mihm went down an injury.

[LakersLegacy]

Phil wanted it. He asked for it. And it wasn't a dark time. 05-06 was really fun. Kobe out scored the Mavs 62-61 and had 81. It was similar to Westbrooks triple double season in terms of intensity. I think that's when Kobe developed found out he could do so much more on the court. Also the great series w the Suns in the play-offs.

We were a Kwame rebound away from wrapping up the series in 6.

Glad we lost because it lead to Gasol and 3 trips to the Finals and 2 championships from 07-08 to 09-10. Those are the glory days.

Caron was Kobes fav teammate because of his positive attitude. He would go on Leno and other shows and share his jouvy to NBA story. Good guy. Tough juice

[TheHartBreakKid]

Sorry to rehash these dark times but I was randomly looking back on that off-season and had a few questions.

Why did the Lakers break up the core of Kobe (26), Odom (25) and Butler (24) who just came off a career year after coming over from Miami?

They would've had a superstar in his prime along with two young studs in Odom/Butler also with just having drafted a high ceiling HS kid in Bynum.

After the draft they turn around and flip Butler for Kwame. What was the point of that? Did they view him as the stopgap center until Bynum was ready? Did they not want to pay all three guys? (iirc Lakers had their Bird rights)...

They had just brought back Phil as well but that was before the draft and traded. Did he know Fisher would opt out? Did he know they were going with a rebuild? Did management think guys like Smush, Kwame, Mihm, Luke and Sasha were solid enough to compliment Kobe and Lamar?

Obviously it worked out in the long run but it nearly drove Kobe to demand a trade and Phil to resign. So I was just curious about the feanchise's direction that summer... thx!

I was pretty young back then, but if I remember correctly, there was still a lot of potential for Kwame at the time (unreasonably, of course).. Bynum was more of long term project, while Kwame was looked at as a young guy who just needs a change of scenery type of thing. Of course, I think Butler was expiring, and the preivously mentioned thing about Lamar for some reason being considered a 3 made Butler unnecessary. IIRC at the time Lamar also was known for having untapped potential.....I think the FO thought with Kwame, Lamar, and Bynum, atleast one of them would hit it big to be Kobe's number two, and if we were lucky, two of them. Of course, they were wrong on all accounts, some due to unreasonable and unfair expectations (Lamar was never going to be a reliable number two), some due to stupidity (Kwame was never going to be an offensive force in this league.....the damage was done at that point), and some due to bad luck (Bynum's injuries), but everything worked out well, due to the simple miracle that was Pau Gasol.

[TheHartBreakKid]

Kind of an off topic rant at this point, but It's funny how we got so lucky and unlucky at the same time. Bynum without injuries was, imho, headed for a HOF path. His impact at both sides of the court/dominance at 20 years old was incredible....without his injuries we might have jsut had a Duncan----Kawai type transition in terms of superstars. Of course, without a very lucky Pau trade, we also could have seen bolt and we wouldn't have two more championships and many years of amazing basketball/great memories.....so I guess it's hard to complain.

My weird relation to the OP is that I think the Caron trade was the definition of a terrible decision working out well in the long run. With Butler & Phil back, and a healthy improved Kobe, and the eventual move of Lamar to the PF, we would have been 3-6 seed level teams in 06 and 07, and Caron would have probably been resigned for a long term deal. Those teams would still be second round exists at best, except that Kobe may have not put as much pressure on the FO in that case, and we definitely wouldn't have had Kwame's huge expiring to trade.

[ALL HAIL]

Sorry to rehash these dark times but I was randomly looking back on that off-season and had a few questions.

Why did the Lakers break up the core of Kobe (26), Odom (25) and Butler (24) who just came off a career year after coming over from Miami?

They would've had a superstar in his prime along with two young studs in Odom/Butler also with just having drafted a high ceiling HS kid in Bynum.

After the draft they turn around and flip Butler for Kwame. What was the point of that? Did they view him as the stopgap center until Bynum was ready? Did they not want to pay all three guys? (iirc Lakers had their Bird rights)...

They had just brought back Phil as well but that was before the draft and traded. Did he know Fisher would opt out? Did he know they were going with a rebuild? Did management think guys like Smush, Kwame, Mihm, Luke and Sasha were solid enough to compliment Kobe and Lamar?

Obviously it worked out in the long run but it nearly drove Kobe to demand a trade and Phil to resign. So I was just curious about the feanchise's direction that summer... thx!

The objective was two-fold. They (I think mostly Phil, but who knows) wanted size/beef in the lineup, and they wanted to exalt Odom, see more clearly what they had in him. Yes, Phil Jackson probably envisioned him as a PG on offense like Pippen. The feeling was that Butler was a luxury, the chip they would use to solve their size problem.

Kwame Brown was the most intriguing guy available, I'm sure.

I defended that trade for years. They needed a big man and took a flyer on Brown. I would have done it too. Swing and knock it out of the park or swing and miss, I'm cool. Butler was clearly the better basketball player, but sometimes when building a team you need the right type of team. And that means more than anything else. They needed size, badly. Just like when Kupchak & Co. overpaid for Nash, they needed a PG, badly.

All told though, I'm sure Kwame's presence on the team, guarding young Bynum in practice, made Bynum work hard, eventually becoming a top NBA center.

In my opinion, Phil indeed did work his Magic on Brown because he became, at least in the playoffs, a dynamic defender. Worst hands ever though. Him and Olden Polynice.

[Hook_Em]

Kind of an off topic rant at this point, but It's funny how we got so lucky and unlucky at the same time. Bynum without injuries was, imho, headed for a HOF path. His impact at both sides of the court/dominance at 20 years old was incredible....without his injuries we might have jsut had a Duncan----Kawai type transition in terms of superstars. Of course, without a very lucky Pau trade, we also could have seen bolt and we wouldn't have two more championships and many years of amazing basketball/great memories.....so I guess it's hard to complain.

My weird relation to the OP is that I think the Caron trade was the definition of a terrible decision working out well in the long run. With Butler & Phil back, and a healthy improved Kobe, and the eventual move of Lamar to the PF, we would have been 3-6 seed level teams in 06 and 07, and Caron would have probably been resigned for a long term deal. Those teams would still be second round exists at best, except that Kobe may have not put as much pressure on the FO in that case, and we definitely wouldn't have had Kwame's huge expiring to trade.

Bynum showed flashes before his breakout season but even if he was healthy I'm not sure he had the maturity to be an all time great. I think he was mentally tough but not a leader. It was a great draft pick regardless... Although he was so raw in HS it was rare to see a guy that big being so coordinated. Good job scouting that year.

[SashaTheMachine]

I was a wee prepubescent teen during these days. I was so mad Caron was traded because he was starting to become my fave player. Kwame had horrible and small hands for a man of his size. So many passes slipping through...so many missed easy dunks. He was physically really strong and solid defender down low. I don't think bball IQ was there either. As noted, we were able to get a steal in the long run, so I'm happy with two titles.

[TylersLakers]

Oh man, the days of Kwame dropping passes. I used to feel so bad for him. I had a soft spot for him for some strange reason.

[Pointgod]

That was a horrible trade then and it's still a horrible trade now. The reason is that Kwame Brown's stock was so low we could have traded a second round pick or Luke Walton for him. Instead we traded a future all star for Kwame Brown let that sink in. Mitch and Jim had Kobe to cover up the stench or their horrible management those days but holy hell were they clueless. Love Caron, the guy loved being a Laker and would have been a great third option on our championship teams.

[Kilroy]

We all felt bad for Kwame because he was a top NBA prospect who had his soul crushed by MJ... But that all ended for me when it was reported he asked the team in a huddle not to pass him the ball... He just didn't have it.

Bynum was a beast his first couple seasons, then he started to become a prima donna too... Maybe because he played with Pau during when he was pouting about something Kobe or his wife did.

But I put the failure of the Pau/Bynum teams on Phil... He clearly checked out his last season, maybe 2 and didn't have any idea how to engage his players anymore.

[Vae Victus]

Honestly PJax just thought having 8 rings meant everyone has to bow down to him. I mean he just won his 8th ring, WHY WOULDNT PEOPLE bow down to him.

Sadly egos are a thing and players likely felt THEY were the ones who won the chips and not PJax. Thus we saw an epic implosion against DAL when things started to turn against them and all hell broke loose in the clubhouse.

Then we get Dwight Coward and Old Man Nash and our fate was sealed.

[larry14r]

That was a horrible trade then and it's still a horrible trade now. The reason is that Kwame Brown's stock was so low we could have traded a second round pick or Luke Walton for him. Instead we traded a future all star for Kwame Brown let that sink in. Mitch and Jim had Kobe to cover up the stench or their horrible management those days but holy hell were they clueless. Love Caron, the guy loved being a Laker and would have been a great third option on our championship teams.

I did if we didn't get Kwame then no Pau and no rings. Well also knew the Wizards didn't want our future coach either. Also I don't think Butler has the defense to stop Pierce from killing us in 08.

[Pointgod]

That was a horrible trade then and it's still a horrible trade now. The reason is that Kwame Brown's stock was so low we could have traded a second round pick or Luke Walton for him. Instead we traded a future all star for Kwame Brown let that sink in. Mitch and Jim had Kobe to cover up the stench or their horrible management those days but holy hell were they clueless. Love Caron, the guy loved being a Laker and would have been a great third option on our championship teams.

I did if we didn't get Kwame then no Pau and no rings. Well also knew the Wizards didn't want our future coach either. Also I don't think Butler has the defense to stop Pierce from killing us in 08.

You don't trade third year Caron Butler for Kwame Brown. That's worse than trading Julius Randle for Javale Magee. We could have signed him for free or traded another player. Wizards were done with Kwame. We still could have made Gasoline trade without giving up Caron.

[chefy]

it was an ok trade back then, i think the FO was hoping for a jermaine oneal 2.0 in kwame but unfortunately it didnt work out.


also i actually liked the big lineup, defense was pretty solid with mihm/brown/LO at the frontcourt.

[larry14r]

That was a horrible trade then and it's still a horrible trade now. The reason is that Kwame Brown's stock was so low we could have traded a second round pick or Luke Walton for him. Instead we traded a future all star for Kwame Brown let that sink in. Mitch and Jim had Kobe to cover up the stench or their horrible management those days but holy hell were they clueless. Love Caron, the guy loved being a Laker and would have been a great third option on our championship teams.

I did if we didn't get Kwame then no Pau and no rings. Well also knew the Wizards didn't want our future coach either. Also I don't think Butler has the defense to stop Pierce from killing us in 08.

You don't trade third year Caron Butler for Kwame Brown. That's worse than trading Julius Randle for Javale Magee. We could have signed him for free or traded another player. Wizards were done with Kwame. We still could have made Gasoline trade without giving up Caron.

Well we still needed Kwame's big expring contract to get Pau. Plus we were going to lose Butler to free agency just like we did Ariza thanks luxury tax.