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Start Hart

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Re: Start Hart 

Post#21 » by One Love » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:09 pm

It sounds like most posters agree that Hart is a better rebounder, driver and shooter than KCP but seem concerned with his defense... KCP May have more lateral speed but Hart is a solid team defender who helps off the ball...

Honestly, I don’t even think the conversations is close fellas... Hart > KCP plus is a young gun who can grow with us while KCP is a $12 million expiring deal (Hart makes less than $2 million) we could use by the deadline...

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Re: Start Hart 

Post#22 » by stan francisco » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:57 pm

Ball so hard wrote:
stan francisco wrote:I wonder if some posters here might under rate his low post defense on switches. If he slows his attack down by a hair, plays more in control, he’ll be a lock for 20PPG. A double double threat every night.

As for KCP’s value in a future trade, it’s of course better if he’s playing well at that point but that’s not a wise justification for not starting your best five.

I think KCP will have an easier time off the bench here in the insanely star studded West, have a bigger impact from there. It will be seen by other GMs for what it is, that he got outplayed by Hart but is still starter material. He could be one of the better 6th men in the league together with Rondo.

When AD demands a trade here by January, KCP’s expiring becomes the priority value to NOP, not his contribution.

He might be more motivated to waive his NTC coming off the bench.


Hart's not good enough to score 20ppg. He's a monster in the open court and becoming a very reliable shooter from outside, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.


Not ahead at all. He ended last season by scoring 20 plus in the last four or five games. He had 20 in game one, Harden in game two. In SL, and I know it’s SL, he looked like a bull mastiff amongst chihuahuas. As a starter, I’d bet he could average 18 on the year.
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#23 » by milesfides » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:09 pm

Hart is absolutely a 20+ ppg scorer.

He converts at 70% around the basket and 40% threes. If he had 15 fga attempts a game he’d be at 20 ppg.

If he added a midrange and was able to draw more fouls he’d be a 25+ complete elite scorer.
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#24 » by milesfides » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:15 pm

Not a great on-ball defender against quick guards, but his + value is being able to hang on switches against bigs.

He does have a good wingspan and is showing better recognition in playing the passing lanes. He’s been a conservative and intelligent defender, and hopefully with more experience he’ll learn how to use his length to deflect, poke, and take good risks as a more aggressive defender.
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#25 » by Kilroy » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:38 pm

KCP takes a while to get going in the season it seems, but when he did last season, I think he was a better starter than Hart...

In any case, the choice is marginal at best... It's not like starting Hart gives us a whole new look or anything... He's never going to be a focus of the offense, so any improvement might be marginal/subjective at worst...

I like Hart a lot, and I had big hopes of a nice jump in production this season, but so far, I'm not seeing it... And KCP is the player he was at the beginning of the season last year, which is to say, not as good as he was later in the season... So right now, I really don't care who starts... Stick with KCP, until Hart starts showing he can take the spot from KCP... He's clearly mentally up to the challenge... But has yet to show that what he's doing on the court clearly puts the question of who's better to rest...
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#26 » by Edrees » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:31 pm

I think his only issue right now is the "Randle" effect. Once he makes up his mind to go to the basket, he will charge in. He needs to learn to kick it out when there are open players around him. Other than can't ask for any more of him right now he's a beast.
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#27 » by kblo247 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:00 am

Ball so hard wrote:
Landsberger wrote:
kblo247 wrote:1) KCP can’t be traded without his permission so give that up.

2) Hart is the worst guard of the bunch defensively because he’s the slowest laterally and likes to body people who face him up. He gets blown by and lost all the time. The Blazers had that run because he couldn’t keep the same defensive tone KCP started. The Rockets were having a layup line on him to Lance took Harden. He’s just too bad a defender to start.

3) Team would be best off starting Ball at Sgt before Hart to be honest or just starting Kuzma and Ingram on the wing while letting Beasley play backup 5 since he has a post game and Hart backup 4 like a mini PJ Tucker since his best attribute is post

4) Hart and Ingram suck at completing free throws


I agree with #2. He is a sieve at point defense and engages waaaay too far away from the hoop for a guy without the quicks to stay in front of anyone. I like the guy but the defensive rep is undeserved..... at least in space. I think he's best suited for the speed bench bunch myself.


Spot on here. I've said essentially the same thing a few times now. IMO Hart's best position is probably at the 3 spot.

Either sf or small ball 4 like PJ Tucker. He’s good at post D like David West pointed out because he’s strong and can stand people up down there. He’s not a good one on one defender. He tries to square people up like he’s Rick Fox without the foot speed to cut off angles or hand speed to strip them if they get a step past like Metta.

I stick by what I said when I said that I would not mind Kuzma starting at SF and Ingram at SG for added length and spacing. Then just give me an unconventional speed bench with Ball as the sixth man getting all the minutes and closing, plus KCP, Lance, Hart, and Beas running with him
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#28 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:57 am

Kilroy wrote:KCP takes a while to get going in the season it seems, but when he did last season, I think he was a better starter than Hart...

In any case, the choice is marginal at best... It's not like starting Hart gives us a whole new look or anything... He's never going to be a focus of the offense, so any improvement might be marginal/subjective at worst...

I like Hart a lot, and I had big hopes of a nice jump in production this season, but so far, I'm not seeing it... And KCP is the player he was at the beginning of the season last year, which is to say, not as good as he was later in the season... So right now, I really don't care who starts... Stick with KCP, until Hart starts showing he can take the spot from KCP... He's clearly mentally up to the challenge... But has yet to show that what he's doing on the court clearly puts the question of who's better to rest...


It puzzles me why you keep saying this. It's only two games, so grains of salt and all that. But through those two games he's essentially doubled his scoring average, improved his overall shooting percentage and has maintained his 3-point efficiency on more attempts per game, with some nice peripheral contributions with steals and blocks. Again, only two games, and I don't particularly care who starts, at least compared to who finishes. But he's absolutely enjoyed a nice jump in production so far.
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#29 » by Kilroy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:56 am

Sedale Threatt wrote:
Kilroy wrote:KCP takes a while to get going in the season it seems, but when he did last season, I think he was a better starter than Hart...

In any case, the choice is marginal at best... It's not like starting Hart gives us a whole new look or anything... He's never going to be a focus of the offense, so any improvement might be marginal/subjective at worst...

I like Hart a lot, and I had big hopes of a nice jump in production this season, but so far, I'm not seeing it... And KCP is the player he was at the beginning of the season last year, which is to say, not as good as he was later in the season... So right now, I really don't care who starts... Stick with KCP, until Hart starts showing he can take the spot from KCP... He's clearly mentally up to the challenge... But has yet to show that what he's doing on the court clearly puts the question of who's better to rest...


It puzzles me why you keep saying this. It's only two games, so grains of salt and all that. But through those two games he's essentially doubled his scoring average, improved his overall shooting percentage and has maintained his 3-point efficiency on more attempts per game, with some nice peripheral contributions with steals and blocks. Again, only two games, and I don't particularly care who starts, at least compared to who finishes. But he's absolutely enjoyed a nice jump in production so far.


Like you said... 2 games... It's not enough to have a meaningful discussion about his stats... Not enough numbers and all that... If you watch him, he's not impacting the game any more than KCP or at least not significantly so, and while he may subjectively, be more efficient (subjectively because the stats are almost meaningless at this point), he doesn't look like he's slashing, elevating and attacking as freely as he was last season... And his defense is about the same.
I still say he doesn't look like the player we saw in Summer League, and I hope it's just an adjustment period...
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#30 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:02 am

Kilroy wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:
Kilroy wrote:KCP takes a while to get going in the season it seems, but when he did last season, I think he was a better starter than Hart...

In any case, the choice is marginal at best... It's not like starting Hart gives us a whole new look or anything... He's never going to be a focus of the offense, so any improvement might be marginal/subjective at worst...

I like Hart a lot, and I had big hopes of a nice jump in production this season, but so far, I'm not seeing it... And KCP is the player he was at the beginning of the season last year, which is to say, not as good as he was later in the season... So right now, I really don't care who starts... Stick with KCP, until Hart starts showing he can take the spot from KCP... He's clearly mentally up to the challenge... But has yet to show that what he's doing on the court clearly puts the question of who's better to rest...


It puzzles me why you keep saying this. It's only two games, so grains of salt and all that. But through those two games he's essentially doubled his scoring average, improved his overall shooting percentage and has maintained his 3-point efficiency on more attempts per game, with some nice peripheral contributions with steals and blocks. Again, only two games, and I don't particularly care who starts, at least compared to who finishes. But he's absolutely enjoyed a nice jump in production so far.


Like you said... 2 games... It's not enough to have a meaningful discussion about his stats... Not enough numbers and all that... If you watch him, he's not impacting the game any more than KCP or at least not significantly so, and while he may subjectively, be more efficient (subjectively because the stats are almost meaningless at this point), he doesn't look like he's slashing, elevating and attacking as freely as he was last season... And his defense is about the same.
I still say he doesn't look like the player we saw in Summer League, and I hope it's just an adjustment period...


Yeah, like I said, all of this just puzzles me. I'm seeing a different player. Like your observation that he's not slashing or attacking as freely as he was; he's taking almost twice as many shots at the basket. :dontknow:
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#31 » by dockingsched » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:30 am

Said it before, he’s going to be considered the centerpiece of the young core by season’s end.
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#32 » by TKainZero » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:33 am

Obviously hart should start

He is near the best rebounding guard in the nba
He can shoot the 3
Good ok defense
And doesn’t make mistakes
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#33 » by Kilroy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:37 am

He played great tonight, and KCP did nothing worth mentioning, so sure, start him...
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#34 » by stan francisco » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:56 am

After game three tonight against SAS it’s pretty obvious that with a switch all defense you need a big guard like Hart at the two.

Every time Pop saw KCP out there he switched us up until KCP was pinned down under the basket with LMA or another big in isolation.

And the more the refs get to see Hart attack, the sooner the and-one calls will come.

Unfortunately LBJ and KCP helped make the case tonight.
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#35 » by Spanish_Laker » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:05 am

Start him and Svi/Stephenson as a backup. Move KCP to the South Bay squad.
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#36 » by milesfides » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:31 pm

Josh Hart is already a better shooter, finisher, and rebounder (elite as 2-guard) than KCP - and two years younger.

Also, he’s locked up for the next three years for absolutely nothing - 1.7m, 1.9m, 3.5m.

The fact that you have an above-average starter, with upside as a 23-year-old, for basically free, makes Josh Hart’s value immense.
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#37 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:30 pm

dockingsched wrote:Said it before, he’s going to be considered the centerpiece of the young core by season’s end.


I f'ing love this kid.
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Re: Start Hart 

Post#38 » by stan francisco » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:52 am

Sedale Threatt wrote:
dockingsched wrote:Said it before, he’s going to be considered the centerpiece of the young core by season’s end.


I f'ing love this kid.


Same here. Likeable, unassuming, hard working, good person all around it seems. Love his game, both ends. And the potential still untapped... He’s a fearless and relentless fighter. And he’s a beast in the post. Can’t wait until he develops a back to the basket game and starts pushing smaller SGs like McCollum underneath the hoop.
PG: D Lo / Reaves / Vincent(IL) / JHS
SG: Christie / Dinwiddie / Lewis / Mays
SF: LBJ / Prince / Reddish / Windler
PF: Rui / Vando(IL) / LBJ
CTR: AD / Hayes / Wood

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Re: Start Hart 

Post#39 » by stan francisco » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:12 am

Tonight’s starting lineup might be our best defensive lineup.

The question is if BI and Ball and Kuz can all be at peak contribution offensively in the same lineup.
PG: D Lo / Reaves / Vincent(IL) / JHS
SG: Christie / Dinwiddie / Lewis / Mays
SF: LBJ / Prince / Reddish / Windler
PF: Rui / Vando(IL) / LBJ
CTR: AD / Hayes / Wood

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Re: Start Hart 

Post#40 » by stan francisco » Tue Nov 6, 2018 3:00 am

It seems Ball defers to BI too much when they both start. BI is a better defender than Hart. While Hart being a 3pt threat opens up space on offense for LB and LBJ, the same space that Ingram seemingly clogs.

Ball’s running of the team looks better without BI to defer to. BI is undoubtedly one of our best five players, but I’d consider breaking the best five start rule for a better team as a whole.

BI could easily dominate opposing benches offensively next to Rondo, in iso, and with Chandler setting screens. Same impact defensively.

So I still say start Hart.
PG: D Lo / Reaves / Vincent(IL) / JHS
SG: Christie / Dinwiddie / Lewis / Mays
SF: LBJ / Prince / Reddish / Windler
PF: Rui / Vando(IL) / LBJ
CTR: AD / Hayes / Wood

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LAL 11, CHI 6, SAS 5, BOS 5, GSW 4

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