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Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach

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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#101 » by TKainZero » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:54 pm

iamworthy wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

That’s not great where the thing the lakers need the most from him, perimeter shooting, seems to be his worse aspect
USA Celtics in full effect. Amazing chemistry building experience right there for the main core of the team


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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#102 » by what would jack bauer do? » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:30 am

TKainZero wrote:
iamworthy wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

That’s not great where the thing the lakers need the most from him, perimeter shooting, seems to be his worse aspect


It's actually not uncommon for guys to flip their scores around from year to year. For example most rookies will get an F on interior defense on there and then rate much higher the next year.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#103 » by stan francisco » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:37 am

iamworthy wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


Interesting. I have a problem not to question the grades listed entirely, as well as the general judgment of the author of them. Remove reality and I could accept those stats but that’s pointless. Blind stats like this have absolutely no merit in my world.

The reality: His shooting last year was off given his injury and concurrent injuries to all other starters. So his stats, like all Lakers stats of 2018-19, are misleading due to sustained injuries to several of our core players: James, Ingram, Lonzo, Rondo etc. Tatum’s stats without 3-4 starters for a big part of the season would take similar hits.

Counter to the stats listed, I’d like to argue he’s a terrific knock down shooter who moves extremely well off the ball. Especially playing next to James, as we’ve all seen. His interior defense isn’t very good. I think we can all agree on that.

In general, Kuzma’s best attribute — besides scoring and cutting off the ball — is his mindset. He’s a killer and a hard working blue collar junk yard dog. His weaknesses will be improved year to year. His Mamba mindset and elite level effort will prove all of those stats wrong, long before Christmas this year.

Kuz will be our third star. Eye test and his prevailing mindset of determined hard work to improve says so. In Kuz I trust.
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PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#104 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:58 am

stan francisco wrote:Interesting. I have a problem not to question the grades listed entirely, as well as the general judgment of the author of them. Remove reality and I could accept those stats but that’s pointless. Blind stats like this have absolutely no merit in my world.


The thing is, they're not blind. The NBA has had cameras up in the rafters of their arenas for a while now, which allows for pretty much everything that happens on the court to be digitally tracked and categorized down to the inch.

Zach Lowe wrote a fascinating story on it six years ago, since which NBA teams have undoubtedly only gotten better at figuring out how to take advantage of all that information.

https://grantland.com/features/the-toronto-raptors-sportvu-cameras-nba-analytical-revolution/

NBA.com has an entire section on their stats site tracking how players fare in 10 or 11 different play types -- spot-ups, post-ups, isolation plays, cutting, off screens, etc etc. None of this is subjective. It all goes into the database from their cameras, and everything is basically math at that point: How many possessions you get per game in each category, how many points are produced per those individual possessions, and what percentile that puts you in compared to the rest of the NBA.

There's also a section to track how well players shoot depending on how close their defenders are: 2 feet or less (covered), out to six feet or more (wide open). Kuzma on the latter shots last season was 35.9 pct, so he's not even remotely close to being a knock-down shooter. (In comparison, Stephen Curry, as you'd expect, was something like 52 or 53 percent.)

So, in short, it's not some sportswriter coming up with arbitrary grades. It's all data based.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#105 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:08 am

The perimeter shooting category doesn't even need digital tracking: He took 39 percent of his shots last season from 3-point and shot 30 percent on those shots, roughly six points below league average. In other words, complete dog sh*t. So hopefully all those Instagram workouts pay off...
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#106 » by hoosierdaddy34 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:02 am

stan francisco wrote:
iamworthy wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


Interesting. I have a problem not to question the grades listed entirely, as well as the general judgment of the author of them. Remove reality and I could accept those stats but that’s pointless. Blind stats like this have absolutely no merit in my world.

The reality: His shooting last year was off given his injury and concurrent injuries to all other starters. So his stats, like all Lakers stats of 2018-19, are misleading due to sustained injuries to several of our core players: James, Ingram, Lonzo, Rondo etc. Tatum’s stats without 3-4 starters for a big part of the season would take similar hits.

Counter to the stats listed, I’d like to argue he’s a terrific knock down shooter who moves extremely well off the ball. Especially playing next to James, as we’ve all seen. His interior defense isn’t very good. I think we can all agree on that.

In general, Kuzma’s best attribute — besides scoring and cutting off the ball — is his mindset. He’s a killer and a hard working blue collar junk yard dog. His weaknesses will be improved year to year. His Mamba mindset and elite level effort will prove all of those stats wrong, long before Christmas this year.

Kuz will be our third star. Eye test and his prevailing mindset of determined hard work to improve says so. In Kuz I trust.


Aside from the previous post that talked about the stats not being arbitrary. I’m going to push back on the Kuz being a terrific knock down shooter.

He wasn’t a very good outside shooter in college.

He came out and knocked down shots for the first two and a half months of his rookie year.

Then regressed the 2nd half of his rookie year back to his college levels.

Followed up last year with shooting averages consistent with his career numbers outside of that two and a half month stretch.

He has one stretch of games where he shot well but outside of that his career numbers have been consistently not good. I think he has a ton to prove and a long ways to go to improve.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#107 » by Ball so hard » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:34 pm

hoosierdaddy34 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:
iamworthy wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


Interesting. I have a problem not to question the grades listed entirely, as well as the general judgment of the author of them. Remove reality and I could accept those stats but that’s pointless. Blind stats like this have absolutely no merit in my world.

The reality: His shooting last year was off given his injury and concurrent injuries to all other starters. So his stats, like all Lakers stats of 2018-19, are misleading due to sustained injuries to several of our core players: James, Ingram, Lonzo, Rondo etc. Tatum’s stats without 3-4 starters for a big part of the season would take similar hits.

Counter to the stats listed, I’d like to argue he’s a terrific knock down shooter who moves extremely well off the ball. Especially playing next to James, as we’ve all seen. His interior defense isn’t very good. I think we can all agree on that.

In general, Kuzma’s best attribute — besides scoring and cutting off the ball — is his mindset. He’s a killer and a hard working blue collar junk yard dog. His weaknesses will be improved year to year. His Mamba mindset and elite level effort will prove all of those stats wrong, long before Christmas this year.

Kuz will be our third star. Eye test and his prevailing mindset of determined hard work to improve says so. In Kuz I trust.


Aside from the previous post that talked about the stats not being arbitrary. I’m going to push back on the Kuz being a terrific knock down shooter.

He wasn’t a very good outside shooter in college.

He came out and knocked down shots for the first two and a half months of his rookie year.

Then regressed the 2nd half of his rookie year back to his college levels.

Followed up last year with shooting averages consistent with his career numbers outside of that two and a half month stretch.

He has one stretch of games where he shot well but outside of that his career numbers have been consistently not good. I think he has a ton to prove and a long ways to go to improve.


I wouldn't place too much weight on his college stats. In his first year in the NBA, he made almost as many 3 point shots as he attempted his entire college career. I think stats are very useful when used correctly. Cherry-picking a few months (or a stretch of games) to support your preconceived opinion is a bit misguided.

I don't agree he's a terrific knock down shooter. I do agree he needs to show significant improvement this year.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#108 » by stan francisco » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:21 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
stan francisco wrote:Interesting. I have a problem not to question the grades listed entirely, as well as the general judgment of the author of them. Remove reality and I could accept those stats but that’s pointless. Blind stats like this have absolutely no merit in my world.


The thing is, they're not blind. The NBA has had cameras up in the rafters of their arenas for a while now, which allows for pretty much everything that happens on the court to be digitally tracked and categorized down to the inch.

Zach Lowe wrote a fascinating story on it six years ago, since which NBA teams have undoubtedly only gotten better at figuring out how to take advantage of all that information.

https://grantland.com/features/the-toronto-raptors-sportvu-cameras-nba-analytical-revolution/

NBA.com has an entire section on their stats site tracking how players fare in 10 or 11 different play types -- spot-ups, post-ups, isolation plays, cutting, off screens, etc etc. None of this is subjective. It all goes into the database from their cameras, and everything is basically math at that point: How many possessions you get per game in each category, how many points are produced per those individual possessions, and what percentile that puts you in compared to the rest of the NBA.

There's also a section to track how well players shoot depending on how close their defenders are: 2 feet or less (covered), out to six feet or more (wide open). Kuzma on the latter shots last season was 35.9 pct, so he's not even remotely close to being a knock-down shooter. (In comparison, Stephen Curry, as you'd expect, was something like 52 or 53 percent.)

So, in short, it's not some sportswriter coming up with arbitrary grades. It's all data based.



Great link. Thank you. And all great points. I just don’t see the value in stats when you remove the stats from their reality and circumstances. When we disregard how relevant that makes the stats or not, this makes us ignore the reality the stats live in. Blind stats.

The reality being that since Christmas we had four/five(?) starters injured for long stretches, and some of those stretches featured two or more starters being injured simultaneously. One of the more long term ones being LeBron, the world’s second best player. Ingram, Lonzo, Hart, Rondo. Our season was over by the deadline. That’s a long stretch to have your stats affected by.

It was garbage time until April. And, with a broken roster around him, Kuzma playing injured didn’t get his normal lift or shot up, had to adjust, fell out of rhythm. It was his second year. It happens to the youth.

What I’m saying is not that all stats are useless, but that there is one thing stats can’t do, judge its own value with human judgment and anticipation.

In my world of human evaluations, Kuz limped to the home stretch last season with a broken crew around him, while racking up subpar stats (even if irrelevant) which are suggestive of talent levels way below his ability, thus misrepresentative of what his value is,

Based on the eye test and based on my best guess at what type of mentality he seems to have (I don’t know him), I’m confident that he’ll be our third best player next season. I’d predict 36MPG, 26PPG, 5RPG, 4APG, 47%, 38%, 86%. Defense? I really hope he improves his lateral quickness and general defensive intensity.

I just think last year’s stats are schmats due to the multiple starters’ sustained injuries.

Assuming Kuzma’s reasonable health, I feel confident revisiting this post around February to prove the stats incomplete and the human eye test still more valuable.
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PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#109 » by hoosierdaddy34 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:37 pm

Ball so hard wrote:
hoosierdaddy34 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:
Interesting. I have a problem not to question the grades listed entirely, as well as the general judgment of the author of them. Remove reality and I could accept those stats but that’s pointless. Blind stats like this have absolutely no merit in my world.

The reality: His shooting last year was off given his injury and concurrent injuries to all other starters. So his stats, like all Lakers stats of 2018-19, are misleading due to sustained injuries to several of our core players: James, Ingram, Lonzo, Rondo etc. Tatum’s stats without 3-4 starters for a big part of the season would take similar hits.

Counter to the stats listed, I’d like to argue he’s a terrific knock down shooter who moves extremely well off the ball. Especially playing next to James, as we’ve all seen. His interior defense isn’t very good. I think we can all agree on that.

In general, Kuzma’s best attribute — besides scoring and cutting off the ball — is his mindset. He’s a killer and a hard working blue collar junk yard dog. His weaknesses will be improved year to year. His Mamba mindset and elite level effort will prove all of those stats wrong, long before Christmas this year.

Kuz will be our third star. Eye test and his prevailing mindset of determined hard work to improve says so. In Kuz I trust.


Aside from the previous post that talked about the stats not being arbitrary. I’m going to push back on the Kuz being a terrific knock down shooter.

He wasn’t a very good outside shooter in college.

He came out and knocked down shots for the first two and a half months of his rookie year.

Then regressed the 2nd half of his rookie year back to his college levels.

Followed up last year with shooting averages consistent with his career numbers outside of that two and a half month stretch.

He has one stretch of games where he shot well but outside of that his career numbers have been consistently not good. I think he has a ton to prove and a long ways to go to improve.


I wouldn't place too much weight on his college stats. In his first year in the NBA, he made almost as many 3 point shots as he attempted his entire college career. I think stats are very useful when used correctly. Cherry-picking a few months (or a stretch of games) to support your preconceived opinion is a bit misguided.

I don't agree he's a terrific knock down shooter. I do agree he needs to show significant improvement this year.


College stats shouldn’t always be trusted and stats should be used correctly.

If a guy shoots 38% in college, with the shorter distance and slow, short guy close outs, that probably doesn’t translate to the nba. But if you can’t shoot in college? That probably shouldn’t be ignored. The list of players who couldn’t shoot in college but came into the NBA, with the longer distance against taller and quicker player closeouts, and could hit shots right away? That’s a pretty short list that may have no one on it. So bad college shooting stats probably shouldn’t be ignored. Do they mean he won’t always be able to shoot? No absolutely not, but when most of nba performance mirrors those numbers? That’s again starting to paint a picture that he does have a lot of work to do.

Maybe he did it, and really improved a ton? I don’t know... but people are talking like he’s a guaranteed 37 or 38% three ball shooter this year. That’s a 7 or 8% jump in one year...it happens but it doesn’t happen very often. So I need to see it before I say Kuz is anything but a bad shooter at this point.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#110 » by dockingsched » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:46 pm

To me one of the most useless stats when evaluating a player’s game is overall 3pt%, so I don’t think it’s even worth talking about. It’s worthless in that there’s so many better ways to evaluate a player’s shot.

There’s a huge variety of 3pt shots that people can take, whether it’s from the top of the key, shoulder, corner. Whether it’s contested or open. Whether it’s off a catch and shoot, off the dribble. Whether it’s against the shot clock, the volume of shots they take, etc.

Looking at someone’s 3pt shot percentage, without looking at the type of 3pt shots they take, is not a very productive task.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#111 » by dockingsched » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:59 pm

For Kuzma, even when you look at shots from the corner, or that are catch n shoot, or that are considered open....he’s still a mediocre shooter. Not encouraging.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#112 » by Ball so hard » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:17 pm

hoosierdaddy34 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
hoosierdaddy34 wrote:
Aside from the previous post that talked about the stats not being arbitrary. I’m going to push back on the Kuz being a terrific knock down shooter.

He wasn’t a very good outside shooter in college.

He came out and knocked down shots for the first two and a half months of his rookie year.

Then regressed the 2nd half of his rookie year back to his college levels.

Followed up last year with shooting averages consistent with his career numbers outside of that two and a half month stretch.

He has one stretch of games where he shot well but outside of that his career numbers have been consistently not good. I think he has a ton to prove and a long ways to go to improve.


I wouldn't place too much weight on his college stats. In his first year in the NBA, he made almost as many 3 point shots as he attempted his entire college career. I think stats are very useful when used correctly. Cherry-picking a few months (or a stretch of games) to support your preconceived opinion is a bit misguided.

I don't agree he's a terrific knock down shooter. I do agree he needs to show significant improvement this year.


College stats shouldn’t always be trusted and stats should be used correctly.

If a guy shoots 38% in college, with the shorter distance and slow, short guy close outs, that probably doesn’t translate to the nba. But if you can’t shoot in college? That probably shouldn’t be ignored. The list of players who couldn’t shoot in college but came into the NBA, with the longer distance against taller and quicker player closeouts, and could hit shots right away? That’s a pretty short list that may have no one on it. So bad college shooting stats probably shouldn’t be ignored. Do they mean he won’t always be able to shoot? No absolutely not, but when most of nba performance mirrors those numbers? That’s again starting to paint a picture that he does have a lot of work to do.

Maybe he did it, and really improved a ton? I don’t know... but people are talking like he’s a guaranteed 37 or 38% three ball shooter this year. That’s a 7 or 8% jump in one year...it happens but it doesn’t happen very often. So I need to see it before I say Kuz is anything but a bad shooter at this point.


Whoever makes this claim shouldn't be taking seriously.

You can't definitively say he's a bad shooter since he's had one good year and one piss poor year. The jury is still out. I think he set a team record for most 3 pointers made in a single season during his rookie year... given there are only 2 years in the books, it's bogus to say his good year was due to luck while also saying is bad year is more indicative of his shooting. Like I said, he has to show me something this year.

I never said you should ignore college stats completely.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#113 » by Ball so hard » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:23 pm

dockingsched wrote:For Kuzma, even when you look at shots from the corner, or that are catch n shoot, or that are considered open....he’s still a mediocre shooter. Not encouraging.


First, second year or in aggregate?

I'm glad he's at least attempting to rework his shot.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#114 » by Kilroy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:46 pm

I don't care so much about his production rate from 3, no matter where he's taking the shot... What concerned me last year, is actually related to that "Mamba-mentality" credit he's receiving...
After his rookie year, in which, regardless of consistency over the entire season, he established himself as at least, a guy you had to stay honest on, on the perimeter, he started talking "Be like Kobe" and decided he didn't want to just be a spot up shooter anymore. He came in in season 2, with the seeming goal of competing with Ingram at his own game, and trying to win the starting 3 from him. He started passing up wide open 3s for awkward drives... Not only that, but his 'mamba-mentality' turned him into one of the worst black-holes on the team last season. He was focused on scoring every time he touched the ball, and wasn't super efficient at it... And worked his way out of minutes...
Not to mention outside of a handful of passable match-ups, he was comically bad on Defense.

Given the points about his college 3pt shooting not being that great, it's easy to read the change in offensive focus, as a lack of confidence in his ability to maintain that 3pt volume and consistency. And IF he doesn't trust it, why should we?

So I'm all for Kuz 'becoming our 3rd star' if he can do it in a way that benefits the team. We don't need another creator with LeBron, and AD and possibly Cousins in the starting lineup... We need him to lock down a perimeter guy on Defense, and we need him to hit spot up 3s along with the occasional drive...
If he can do that, and do it better than guys like Green, and maybe even KCP, then sure... Start his ass...

But that said, Ginobili was a star too... He came off the bench, and played a lot of minutes... He also was free to play the game how he wanted, without having to figure out how to work next to Parker and Duncan.

Point being, "3rd Star" and "Starter" don't have to be the same thing... And I just don't think Kuz is a good fit with the Starters on this team.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#115 » by iamworthy » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:53 pm

I blame the media and that damn mural for all of this third star stuff :lol: anyway I'd love to see it, but I currently has boogie as the third star. I think he takes another step in his road to recovery.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#116 » by LAKESHOW » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:18 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:The perimeter shooting category doesn't even need digital tracking: He took 39 percent of his shots last season from 3-point and shot 30 percent on those shots, roughly six points below league average. In other words, complete dog sh*t. So hopefully all those Instagram workouts pay off...
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#117 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:39 pm

iamworthy wrote:I blame the media and that damn mural for all of this third star stuff :lol: anyway I'd love to see it, but I currently has boogie as the third star. I think he takes another step in his road to recovery.


The good thing is, I don't think we really need him to be a star. If he can tick his 3-point shooting up to the high 30s, on 6 or 7 attempts a game, that's going to be an absolutely enormous contribution. If Green can do the same, and LeBron/Davis/Cousins can stay relatively healthy, that's an incredibly dangerous lineup in which all five players complement each other. (At least offensively; we'd probably struggle against quick guards.) A lot of ifs, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#118 » by stan francisco » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:52 pm

iamworthy wrote:I blame the media and that damn mural for all of this third star stuff :lol: anyway I'd love to see it, but I currently has boogie as the third star. I think he takes another step in his road to recovery.


I think we have a big four.

Btw, feel free to check the dates of some posters’ posts in this thread and others on predicting Kuz being the third star. :D They predate Kuz and then the media making the claim, by a couple of weeks at least.
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PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#119 » by snaquille oatmeal » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:30 pm

Some long a** posts on this page, good thing I’m taking a dos
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Re: Kuz has been working with a private shooting coach 

Post#120 » by Ball so hard » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:33 am

Kilroy wrote:I don't care so much about his production rate from 3, no matter where he's taking the shot... What concerned me last year, is actually related to that "Mamba-mentality" credit he's receiving...
After his rookie year, in which, regardless of consistency over the entire season, he established himself as at least, a guy you had to stay honest on, on the perimeter, he started talking "Be like Kobe" and decided he didn't want to just be a spot up shooter anymore. He came in in season 2, with the seeming goal of competing with Ingram at his own game, and trying to win the starting 3 from him. He started passing up wide open 3s for awkward drives... Not only that, but his 'mamba-mentality' turned him into one of the worst black-holes on the team last season. He was focused on scoring every time he touched the ball, and wasn't super efficient at it... And worked his way out of minutes...
Not to mention outside of a handful of passable match-ups, he was comically bad on Defense.



The bolded part is grossly exaggerated. There isn't a single stat that supports Kuz being a blackhole. He certainly didn't appear to be a ball-stopper in the games I watched. Hard to call someone a blackhole who average around 2 seconds per touch and around 2 dribbles per possession. This is not even close to being one of the worse on the team, given similar minutes.

Ingram's averaged around 4 seconds per touch and around 3 dribbles per possession.

His defense also wasn't nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.

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