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Lakers Starting Line up

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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#141 » by lakerRD » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:08 am

AD
LBJ
kCP
Green
JaVale

Kuz
DMC
Cook
Daniels
Dudley

Caruso
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#142 » by dAdo dA dEvil » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:48 pm

With rumors of LBJ playing the point then i suspect we'll go with:

LBJ - Green - Kuzma - AD - Cousins/McGee

but I also think the best fit would be:

Rondo/Caruso - Green ' Bron - AD - Cousins/McGee

But I'd prefer the latter line up as I think it could mach up better defensively.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#143 » by LAKESHOW » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:10 pm

lakerRD wrote:AD
LBJ
kCP
Green
JaVale

Kuz
DMC
Cook
Daniels
Dudley

Caruso

I like this lineup, not because i believe it will be the starting line up, but because i can see within it, a sparsing, a semblance of a division of 2 types of speeds. Which i have been trying to figure out, but couldnt. See we cant just have 1 type of speed. But having a speed lineup, lets face it, weve still got portland and houston amonst others to deal with, but have a speed lineup gives us a diversified attack. And i like this diversification.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#144 » by zimpy27 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:07 pm

If Caruso, KCP and Bradley can both shoot 3s above 37% and defend their position well then the Lakers have a 50/50 shot at the championship.

That PG/SG spot is crucial to this teams success IMO. KCP also needs to be able to take the SF role on the backup when LeBron and Green aren't on the floor.

LeBron - Rondo
Caruso - Bradley
Green - KCP
AD - Kuzma
Cousins - McGee
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#145 » by I_Love_This_Game!! » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:33 pm

With Boogie out for the year and Howard having just been signed, I think the breakdown will look like this now...

PG...Bradley (28)...Cook (12)...Rondo (6)
SG...Green (28)...Caruso (18)
SF...Lebron (36)...KCP (12)
PF...Davis (34)...Kuzma (30)
C...Howard (22)...McGee (14)

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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#146 » by jkokkotos » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:26 pm

Point Guard (48 mins): Rondo(22), Bradley (14), Caruso(8), KCP (4)
Shooting Guard (48 mins): Green (28), KCP (20)
Small Forward (48 mins): LeBron (27), Kuzma (21)
Power Forward (48 mins): Davis (32), LeBron (8), Kuzma (8)
Center (48 mins): McGee (23), Howard (21), Davis (4)

Based on the aforementioned rotation, here's how everyone's total playing time is split across multiple positions:
Davis (36 mins): 32' at PF, 4' at C
LeBron (35 mins): 27' at SF, 8' at PF
Kuzma (29 mins): 21' at SF, 8' at PF
Green (28 mins): 28' at SG
KCP (24 mins): 20' at SG, 4' at PG
McGee (23 mins): 23' at C
Rondo(22 mins): 22' at PG
Howard (21 mins): 21' at C
Bradley (14 mins): 14' at PG
Caruso(8 mins): 8' at PG

Dudley & Cook will be our 11th & 12th guys on the depth chart, they will find playing for sure whenever we rest our players or whenever an injury happens. I'm not predicting any minutes for them because they probably won't be in the regular rotation if the team is 100% healthy. Cook is too small (6'2'') to get SG minutes and he's not a better overall player than Caruso/Bradley/Rondo until he proves he is imo. His defense is by far the worst among all of them and he's not a better playmaker than Rondo/Caruso. Unless they all are shooting bricks & not playing D and we need Cook's shooting desparately, in which case that need would help him leapfrog everyone else since they weren't playing much D anyway & he does offer you better spacing.

How I fit lineups/roles/minutes together:
Davis: 4' at C in Closing Lineup, Overall 23' with LBJ & 13' w/o him
LeBron: 4' at PF in Closing Lineup, 4' at PF in non-AD mins, 27' at SF, Overall 23' with AD (4' in Closing) & 12' w/o him
Kuzma: 4' at SF in Closing Lineup, 8' at PF in non-AD mins with LBJ, 17' at SF in non-LBJ mins with AD
Green: won't play outside of position b/c he's the best SG on the team & we're full of Forwards, SG of the Closing Lineup
KCP: Green's premier back-up at the SG position, will fight AB for PG mins in Closing Lineup
McGee: his obvious role & expected playing time
Rondo: 13' with AD & no LBJ, will play his remaining 9' in some Green-Kuzma-LeBron-Center lineup variations because of 1) they'll need to have Green out there with him to fix the offensive spacing & play some D against opposing guards and 2) LeBron & AD are probably our best playmakers outside of Rondo, so we need to avoid playing all 3 together and stagger their minutes so that 1 of AD/LeBron is with Rondo for every minute of Rondo's playing time
Howard: his obvious role & expected playing time
Bradley: maybe the best Point-Of-Attack defender on the roster, has the upside to be in Closing Lineup if his 3&D ability turns out to be legit
Caruso: deserves a bigger role but the only way to get there is if Rondo is shooting 25% from 3 or if Bradley can't play a 3&D role as a PG


I would clearly prefer to give Rondo a 13 mpg role (since LBJ plays 35 mpg, we only play Rondo in the non-LBJ time) & give the extra minutes to Caruso or Bradley, but I think it'll be too difficult for Vogel to risk going against LeBron's & AD's beliefs about Rondo's game.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#147 » by tamaraw08 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:00 pm

jkokkotos wrote:Point Guard (48 mins): Rondo(22), Bradley (14), Caruso(8), KCP (4)
Shooting Guard (48 mins): Green (28), KCP (20)
Small Forward (48 mins): LeBron (27), Kuzma (21)
Power Forward (48 mins): Davis (32), LeBron (8), Kuzma (8)
Center (48 mins): McGee (23), Howard (21), Davis (4)



Caruso: deserves a bigger role but the only way to get there is if Rondo is shooting 25% from 3 or if Bradley can't play a 3&D role as a PG


I would clearly prefer to give Rondo a 13 mpg role (since LBJ plays 35 mpg, we only play Rondo in the non-LBJ time) & give the extra minutes to Caruso or Bradley, but I think it'll be too difficult for Vogel to risk going against LeBron's & AD's beliefs about Rondo's game.


Rondo shot 36% from the 3pt area last season and he was still horrible because he was a bad fit for certain players esp Lebron and his defense is very bad. With Lebron, they were a -3.7 pts per 100 possessions. He was the only player with a negative impact with Lebron aside from Bullock.
Caruso/James combo has a net rating of +11.2 pts/100 possessions but the sample size was only 146 minutes together. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/carusal01/lineups/2019
On the court with Caruso, they are a +4.6pts, off the court they are a -2.8. Rondo on the other hand was a -8.1 pts on the court, and a + 1.5 when he's not playing.
I want to believe the ultimate goal is winning and not playing with buddies bec if that's a case, Lebron would have forced the Lakers to get Carmelo but then again, KCP had a nice contract.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#148 » by jkokkotos » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:27 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:Rondo shot 36% from the 3pt area last season and he was still horrible because he was a bad fit for certain players esp Lebron and his defense is very bad. With Lebron, they were a -3.7 pts per 100 possessions. He was the only player with a negative impact with Lebron aside from Bullock.
Caruso/James combo has a net rating of +11.2 pts/100 possessions but the sample size was only 146 minutes together. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/carusal01/lineups/2019
On the court with Caruso, they are a +4.6pts, off the court they are a -2.8. Rondo on the other hand was a -8.1 pts on the court, and a + 1.5 when he's not playing.
I want to believe the ultimate goal is winning and not playing with buddies bec if that's a case, Lebron would have forced the Lakers to get Carmelo but then again, KCP had a nice contract.


If it was up to me, I would want Caruso/Bradley/KCP sharing all the PG minutes between themselves, but realistically that's not going to happen. I'm the opposite of a Rondo fan, I'd have loved us signing Tyus Jones (1st player ever to post 6:1 assist-to-turnover ratio in a full season last year) or even Trey Burke & they're both far from perfect but that's just how much I don't like Rondo's impact. Having said that, it's obvious Anthony Davis thinks highly of Rondo and LeBron doesn't seem to feel much different either, so I won't pretend that a coach with as much uncertainty surrounding his position as Vogel will have the courage to go directly against AD (on a year where the team wants to resign him) and LeBron together.

I'm a believer in synergy/fit too, we don't have the player personnel needed to maximize Rondo's strengths while covering for his weaknesses, but I'm also quite aware of how low the probability is of Caruso getting more minutes than him at the beginning.

As for Rondo's 35.9 3p%, it's all smoke. Zero substance there. The guy is refusing to take even remotely contested 3s on a regular basis (much less tightly contested ones). He only shoots open (defender being 4-6 ft away) or wide-open (defender being 6+ ft away) 3s, which are high-percentage shots and he still makes them at a far lower clip than the standard NBA Point Guard. You don't need to convince me he's bad, I'm sure he's terrible lol


Edit: I'm adding this as proof of everything I said about his 3pt shooting https://stats.nba.com/player/200765/shots-dash/ . If you check the "Closest Defender" table, he takes 3.0 of his total 3.1 3pt attempts in wide open (2.2) and open (0.8) situations.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#149 » by tamaraw08 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:54 pm

jkokkotos wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:Rondo shot 36% from the 3pt area last season and he was still horrible because he was a bad fit for certain players esp Lebron and his defense is very bad. With Lebron, they were a -3.7 pts per 100 possessions. He was the only player with a negative impact with Lebron aside from Bullock.
Caruso/James combo has a net rating of +11.2 pts/100 possessions but the sample size was only 146 minutes together. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/carusal01/lineups/2019
On the court with Caruso, they are a +4.6pts, off the court they are a -2.8. Rondo on the other hand was a -8.1 pts on the court, and a + 1.5 when he's not playing.
I want to believe the ultimate goal is winning and not playing with buddies bec if that's a case, Lebron would have forced the Lakers to get Carmelo but then again, KCP had a nice contract.


If it was up to me, I would want Caruso/Bradley/KCP sharing all the PG minutes between themselves, but realistically that's not going to happen. I'm the opposite of a Rondo fan, I'd have loved us signing Tyus Jones (1st player ever to post 6:1 assist-to-turnover ratio in a full season last year) or even Trey Burke & they're both far from perfect but that's just how much I don't like Rondo's impact. Having said that, it's obvious Anthony Davis thinks highly of Rondo and LeBron doesn't seem to feel much different either, so I won't pretend that a coach with as much uncertainty surrounding his position as Vogel will have the courage to go directly against AD (on a year where the team wants to resign him) and LeBron together.

I'm a believer in synergy/fit too, we don't have the player personnel needed to maximize Rondo's strengths while covering for his weaknesses, but I'm also quite aware of how low the probability is of Caruso getting more minutes than him at the beginning.

As for Rondo's 35.9 3p%, it's all smoke. Zero substance there. The guy is refusing to take even remotely contested 3s on a regular basis (much less tightly contested ones). He only shoots open (defender being 4-6 ft away) or wide-open (defender being 6+ ft away) 3s, which are high-percentage shots and he still makes them at a far lower clip than the standard NBA Point Guard. You don't need to convince me he's bad, I'm sure he's terrible lol


Edit: I'm adding this as proof of everything I said about his 3pt shooting https://stats.nba.com/player/200765/shots-dash/ . If you check the "Closest Defender" table, he takes 3.0 of his total 3.1 3pt attempts in wide open (2.2) and open (0.8) situations.

It's ironic that I actually didn't mind the Rondo signing bec I felt he can play PG as a backup and NOT next to Lebron bec I saw some positive things he did in New Orleans esp in the playoffs when they swept the favored Blazers led by Lillard and CJ. I envisioned him playing next to Cousins, Caruso and Kuzma who was reportedly improved his shooting form as their bench mob with AD resting at the 7 minute mark of the first quarter so he can join them.
The Rondo/AD combo had a +3.5 net while Rondo/AD/Mirotic trio had a +16 pts differential, I was hoping Kuzma with his supposedly improved stroke can somewhat replicate Mirotic's style. The 4-man combo of AD, Rondo, Moore,Mirotic had a + 23 rating. I think you and I agree that Rondo should play zero minutes next to Lebron and I felt James would be resting bet 14-16 minutes that's the time Rajon should play. Brian Windhorst said Lue would stand up to Lebron armed with advanced stats to justify his rotations and James is not that dumb and hardheaded to understand when presented the accurate facts.
But KCP sharing PG minutes? :o Both ESPN AND basketballreference pegged the guy as shooting guard and not a PG esp since his career assist/game is 1.6 to 1 turnover. And btw, I wouldn't actually say he is a "shooting" guard bec the guy actually disappears when they needed him most, bet Jan and Feb, his 3pt% is under 32% and then jacks it up to 37% as soon as the Lakers gets eliminated=GARBAGE TIME. :banghead: btw, his advanced defensive stats are also pretty bad RANKED 95TH out of 107 SGs. :noway:
If there's 1 player that I wouldn't want to see play, it's this guy. But hey,I will be ecstatic if he proves me wrong this coming season.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#150 » by jkokkotos » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:50 am

tamaraw08 wrote:It's ironic that I actually didn't mind the Rondo signing bec I felt he can play PG as a backup and NOT next to Lebron bec I saw some positive things he did in New Orleans esp in the playoffs when they swept the favored Blazers led by Lillard and CJ. I envisioned him playing next to Cousins, Caruso and Kuzma who was reportedly improved his shooting form as their bench mob with AD resting at the 7 minute mark of the first quarter so he can join them.
The Rondo/AD combo had a +3.5 net while Rondo/AD/Mirotic trio had a +16 pts differential, I was hoping Kuzma with his supposedly improved stroke can somewhat replicate Mirotic's style. The 4-man combo of AD, Rondo, Moore,Mirotic had a + 23 rating. I think you and I agree that Rondo should play zero minutes next to Lebron and I felt James would be resting bet 14-16 minutes that's the time Rajon should play. Brian Windhorst said Lue would stand up to Lebron armed with advanced stats to justify his rotations and James is not that dumb and hardheaded to understand when presented the accurate facts.

Yeap, I don't want Rondo playing in LBJ-lineups at all. The value Rondo brings at this exact point of his career isn't defense, shooting or versatility, it's only his half-court playmaking ability which can elevate certain lineups that have other capable scorers/shooters. It's not his contract that bothers me at all, I mean it's a veteran minimum deal I know we wouldn't be able to find any far better options with the same money anyway (I preferred Tuys Jones, b/c he was still available, he got more money afterwards from MEM). It's that he appears to have the reputation with media/fans & the connections/recognition by other players, that grants him a big role. In my original roles/minutes projection, I did not have him playing 22 mpg because I think that's the best route to take. I did because I think he'll see those minutes anyway because of his stature and of course it won't lead to an ideal rotation or an optimal use of player personnel. You said Windy said Lue would stand up to LeBron to justify his rotations, but it's worth noting that Lue was LeBron's guy for the job he almost lobbied for him in 2015-16 before Blatt was fired. He wanted Lue in LA too, but Rob low-balled Lue to avoid feeding into the perception that Klutch/LeBron run the team. Now, Lue was just hired to join Doc's coaching stuff. Does Frank Vogel have the courage to deny Rondo a role that maybe LBJ & AD believe Rondo should have? With Kidd right next behind him, ready to jump in & take the job the minute Jeanie/Rob fire Vogel for mediocre results or poor relationships with the two superstars? It's a delicate situation, because AD's happiness is a huge priority too given that he is a free agent in 10 months. Make no mistake, we both think Rondo shouldn't play much more than 15 mpg or so (which'll be LBJ's time off the court, give or take 1-2 mins), but I'm afraid our opinion might be different from what ends up happening.
But KCP sharing PG minutes? :o Both ESPN AND basketballreference pegged the guy as shooting guard and not a PG esp since his career assist/game is 1.6 to 1 turnover. And btw, I wouldn't actually say he is a "shooting" guard bec the guy actually disappears when they needed him most, bet Jan and Feb, his 3pt% is under 32% and then jacks it up to 37% as soon as the Lakers gets eliminated=GARBAGE TIME. :banghead: btw, his advanced defensive stats are also pretty bad RANKED 95TH out of 107 SGs. :noway:
If there's 1 player that I wouldn't want to see play, it's this guy. But hey,I will be ecstatic if he proves me wrong this coming season.

I projected KCP to play 4 minutes at PG out of his total 24 mpg (that's 4/24= 16.7% of his playing time), assuming he will be the 5th guy on our closing lineup as I thought made clear by saying "he will fight AB for the PG mins in the Closing Lineup".

I see that you are familiar with BballRef & ESPN, we're both on the same page that KCP is clearly a SG, no argue there from me since the guy is a poor ball-handler & an even worse initiator of sets. But you might need to take a look at BballRef's "Play-by-Play" table on KCP's profile page and check out the "Position Estimate" columns a bit. According to BballRef, he played 11% of his playing time at PG in 2017-18. And he played 27% of his playing time at PG in 2018-19. In my projection, giving him 4 minutes at PG equates 16.7% of his total PT, so it fits pretty well with what he has done with the Lakers for the last 2 seasons. Whether you agree with my projection or not, that's your right but it doesn't change the fact that KCP has played a 2-year average of 19% of his playing time at PG already (meaning that my 16.7% projection is actually a bit below what has already been established as precedent).
Now with regards to his defense, I know you already know this too, but we don't exactly have any elite defensive stoppers at the PG spot anyway (unless AB becomes vintage AB). We already both agreed that Rondo shouldn't see minutes with LBJ on, Cook's DRPM is even worse than KCP's is, so that only leaves Caruso & AB outside of KCP. I expect the finalists for the remaining spot on the floor for our Closing Lineup ( x - Green - Kuzma - LBJ - AD) to be AB & KCP, because as much as I want to count on Caruso, he still needs to prove himself first before he can close out games. All we have is his solid 2-way play from a 25-game sample size from this past season, i wholeheartedly wish he is the level of player that most of us believe he is but until he proves that while taking on a big role during a bigger part of the RS where wins actually matters & we're not in 'Tanking Games' mode (or as you phrased it "Garbage Time"), I can't include him in the Closing Lineup just yet. It's only my opinion & nothing more, but I speculate that it'll indeed come down to KCP & AB for that remaining spot on our game-closing lineup.
I hope I explained somewhat better my original Minutes Projection now.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#151 » by stan francisco » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:51 pm

My rotations:

PG: James16, Caruso24, Bradley4, Rondo3, Norvell1
SG: Green24, Pope12, Bradley8, Daniels3, Cook1
SF: Kuzma24, James16, THT6, Caroline2
PF: Davis32, Kuzma12, Dudley3, Cacok1
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#152 » by tamaraw08 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:03 pm

jkokkotos wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
Now with regards to his defense, I know you already know this too, but we don't exactly have any elite defensive stoppers at the PG spot anyway (unless AB becomes vintage AB). We already both agreed that Rondo shouldn't see minutes with LBJ on, Cook's DRPM is even worse than KCP's is, so that only leaves Caruso & AB outside of KCP. I expect the finalists for the remaining spot on the floor for our Closing Lineup ( x - Green - Kuzma - LBJ - AD) to be AB & KCP, because as much as I want to count on Caruso, he still needs to prove himself first before he can close out games. All we have is his solid 2-way play from a 25-game sample size from this past season, i wholeheartedly wish he is the level of player that most of us believe he is but until he proves that while taking on a big role during a bigger part of the RS where wins actually matters & we're not in 'Tanking Games' mode (or as you phrased it "Garbage Time"), I can't include him in the Closing Lineup just yet. It's only my opinion & nothing more, but I speculate that it'll indeed come down to KCP & AB for that remaining spot on our game-closing lineup.
I hope I explained somewhat better my original Minutes Projection now.

Actually Caruso played 37 games 2 seasons ago too where he had a +.10 in DRPM good enough to rank him 25th best.
Last season he was ranked 11th best with a +.77 but ESPN pegged him as SG just like KCP whom btw had a consistent negative score in DRPM the last 3 years. Last season he had a -2.17 ranked 95th out of 107 SGs. 2 years ago, -0.32 and 16-17 with a -1.31.
From bbreference, last year, just for the Lakers roster he ranked 18th in DBPM and 19th in DRTG (YES including scrubs).
As I explained before, KCP's shooting % is pretty deceptive, does badly by Jan/Feb and always going up by March, during garbage time. At least Daniels,Caruso Cook have a high career % from the 3pt area...but I just don't see a specific role for this guy except that he's 6-5, tall enough to put a hand on real SG's and I truly hope he proves me wrong.
Going back to Caruso, he is 6-5, he is 25 yrs old not 20, he has played 62 games. Yes maybe not enough sample size still, but the whole training camp and the first 15 games or so, I think we would know what he is actually made of.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#153 » by jkokkotos » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:33 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
jkokkotos wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
Now with regards to his defense, I know you already know this too, but we don't exactly have any elite defensive stoppers at the PG spot anyway (unless AB becomes vintage AB). We already both agreed that Rondo shouldn't see minutes with LBJ on, Cook's DRPM is even worse than KCP's is, so that only leaves Caruso & AB outside of KCP. I expect the finalists for the remaining spot on the floor for our Closing Lineup ( x - Green - Kuzma - LBJ - AD) to be AB & KCP, because as much as I want to count on Caruso, he still needs to prove himself first before he can close out games. All we have is his solid 2-way play from a 25-game sample size from this past season, i wholeheartedly wish he is the level of player that most of us believe he is but until he proves that while taking on a big role during a bigger part of the RS where wins actually matters & we're not in 'Tanking Games' mode (or as you phrased it "Garbage Time"), I can't include him in the Closing Lineup just yet. It's only my opinion & nothing more, but I speculate that it'll indeed come down to KCP & AB for that remaining spot on our game-closing lineup.
I hope I explained somewhat better my original Minutes Projection now.

Actually Caruso played 37 games 2 seasons ago too where he had a +.10 in DRPM good enough to rank him 25th best.
Last season he was ranked 11th best with a +.77 but ESPN pegged him as SG just like KCP whom btw had a consistent negative score in DRPM the last 3 years. Last season he had a -2.17 ranked 95th out of 107 SGs. 2 years ago, -0.32 and 16-17 with a -1.31.
From bbreference, last year, just for the Lakers roster he ranked 18th in DBPM and 19th in DRTG (YES including scrubs).

Not really sure what are we doing here, it feels like we're talking past each other. (I knew Caruso played with the team before LeBron, thanks for the heads-up anyway).
We seem to agree on the whole Caruso-Rondo dynamic, we both want Caruso to get more minutes than Rondo, so at least this matter is settled.
W/r/t KCP, I will address the issue below.
As I explained before, KCP's shooting % is pretty deceptive, does badly by Jan/Feb and always going up by March, during garbage time. At least Daniels,Caruso Cook have a high career % from the 3pt area...but I just don't see a specific role for this guy except that he's 6-5, tall enough to put a hand on real SG's and I truly hope he proves me wrong.
Going back to Caruso, he is 6-5, he is 25 yrs old not 20, he has played 62 games. Yes maybe not enough sample size still, but the whole training camp and the first 15 games or so, I think we would know what he is actually made of.

Regarding KCP's game, you started questioning my logic about giving him 4 mins at PG, I merely pointed it out the obvious...that the guy has already been getting 11% & 27% of his minutes for us playing that position since 2017-18, so now we move the goalposts to his shooting & his defense. If you notice the part of my response that you have quoted above, I never ever said KCP can play D (or be a playmaker for that matter), all I've been saying the entire time is what I expect (not want) to happen with our rotation & minute distribution. And since I never call him a defender to begin with, I'm going to look at his shooting. He's a great Catch&Shoot shooter, which is valuable to a team with LeBron & Davis, for the last 3 seasons (from 2016-17 to 2018-19) he has shot 36.7% 40.3% and 36.7% in C&S. His 3P% on Pull-Ups gets worse, but we won't use him at all if what we need is a guy to handle the rock & run the offense, so his steadily good C&S numbers are something we can work with.

Something about Advanced Stats, the smaller the sample size in games/minutes, the less reliable the result is. I trust ESPN's RPM (DRPM/ORPM), but you shouldn't use BPM the way you did, because it doesn't factor in teammates/opponents (among other things, which I don't know them myself but the Adjusted Plus Minus formula looks at). It's kinda silly to use DBPM to say KCP was 18th for our team this season, because you are essentially ranking above him some guys who played 100-500 minutes (which is less than 25% of his 2035 minutes lol) and also you are using a metric that doesn't take into account the quality of your teammates or of your opponents. In other words, you used a ranking list with DBPM that ranked Jemmerio Jones & Isaac Bonga as the top-2 and the metric itself is "biased" in their favor because in its own definition it clearly tells you that it doesn't look at who you're playing with or against, so of course Bonga/Jones would rate pretty good since he played all the garbage minutes against other 3rd stringers. As I said, I trust ESPN's RPM more (since it's based on the Adjusted PM), but you must use them combined with context or else you're basically telling me that Jemmerio Jones' 3.7 DBPM (which you ranked higher than KCP earlier) is reliable information and he is the 16th best defender in the league haha ( http://bkref.com/tiny/VPXq4 ). We don't disagree anyway, KCP doesn't play D & all the evidence we have in the form of Advanced Stats/Metrics agrees with that. https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#154 » by tamaraw08 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:42 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
jkokkotos wrote:


Regarding KCP's game, you started questioning my logic about giving him 4 mins at PG, I merely pointed it out the obvious...that the guy has already been getting 11% & 27% of his minutes for us playing that position since 2017-18, so now we move the goalposts to his shooting & his defense. If you notice the part of my response that you have quoted above, I never ever said KCP can play D (or be a playmaker for that matter), all I've been saying the entire time is what I expect [u](not want)[/u] to happen with our rotation & minute distribution.

but this is what you said in message # 148
If it was up to me, I would want Caruso/Bradley/KCP sharing all the PG minutes between themselves, but realistically that's not going to happen.


jkokkotos wrote:And since I never call him a defender to begin with, I'm going to look at his shooting. He's a great Catch&Shoot shooter, which is valuable to a team with LeBron & Davis, for the last 3 seasons (from 2016-17 to 2018-19) he has shot 36.7% 40.3% and 36.7% in C&S. His 3P% on Pull-Ups gets worse, but we won't use him at all if what we need is a guy to handle the rock & run the offense, so his steadily good C&S numbers are something we can work with.

We don't disagree anyway, KCP doesn't play D & all the evidence we have in the form of Advanced Stats/Metrics agrees with that. https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

It's great that we agree on most of our opinions and the basis/stats are there too.
I think it's pretty clear now that how much I dislike KCP and I actuallyh based most of it on how much he disappeared when his team needed him most esp when Lebron and Ball got hurt and the time about the trade rumors started. His catch and shoot % seems good enough but then again I ask, how well did he do in Dec to Feb the past 2 years from that stat?
Let me be clear again that I am hoping and praying that he proves me wrong this coming season bec if he fails esp in the early part, might as well give those minutes to Caruso. Rivers would find mins to Lou Williams even if he's a bad defender bet timeouts the last 1-2 mins of his shooting, Might as well use those instances on Cook who shot 46.6% last season and 49% 2 years ago on catch and shoot from the 3pt area, then use Bradley or Caruso on defense.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#155 » by jkokkotos » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:50 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
jkokkotos wrote:


Regarding KCP's game, you started questioning my logic about giving him 4 mins at PG, I merely pointed it out the obvious...that the guy has already been getting 11% & 27% of his minutes for us playing that position since 2017-18, so now we move the goalposts to his shooting & his defense. If you notice the part of my response that you have quoted above, I never ever said KCP can play D (or be a playmaker for that matter), all I've been saying the entire time is what I expect [u](not want)[/u] to happen with our rotation & minute distribution.

but this is what you said in message # 148
If it was up to me, I would want Caruso/Bradley/KCP sharing all the PG minutes between themselves, but realistically that's not going to happen.

So, because I said KCP's name among a pool of candidates, we single out specifically that 1 name out of the 3 acting as if I said I want him to have the minutes all to himself? Maybe it's only me not seeing the logic here, but ok. (All this back&forth for a 4 mpg role based on the premise of him proving he deserved those 4 minutes over AB, as stated in post #146)
jkokkotos wrote:And since I never call him a defender to begin with, I'm going to look at his shooting. He's a great Catch&Shoot shooter, which is valuable to a team with LeBron & Davis, for the last 3 seasons (from 2016-17 to 2018-19) he has shot 36.7% 40.3% and 36.7% in C&S. His 3P% on Pull-Ups gets worse, but we won't use him at all if what we need is a guy to handle the rock & run the offense, so his steadily good C&S numbers are something we can work with.

We don't disagree anyway, KCP doesn't play D & all the evidence we have in the form of Advanced Stats/Metrics agrees with that. https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

tamaraw08 wrote:It's great that we agree on most of our opinions and the basis/stats are there too.
I think it's pretty clear now that how much I dislike KCP and I actuallyh based most of it on how much he disappeared when his team needed him most esp when Lebron and Ball got hurt and the time about the trade rumors started. His catch and shoot % seems good enough but then again I ask, how well did he do in Dec to Feb the past 2 years from that stat?
Let me be clear again that I am hoping and praying that he proves me wrong this coming season bec if he fails esp in the early part, might as well give those minutes to Caruso. Rivers would find mins to Lou Williams even if he's a bad defender bet timeouts the last 1-2 mins of his shooting, Might as well use those instances on Cook who shot 46.6% last season and 49% 2 years ago on catch and shoot from the 3pt area, then use Bradley or Caruso on defense.

I'm not sure Lou is actually as valuable to that team as I used to believe like a month ago, I have changed my mind a bit on that matter after looking at a few advanced metrics other than just RPM (which already suggested that though). Lou's value won't show on a team that has two dominant iso-heavy wings like Kawhi and PG. And they aren't just big scorers who play a lot of iso-ball just like Lou, but also they're more efficient scorers than him. Lou needs to have a high Usage Rate to be a 'net positive' on the court, if he can't monopolize possessions offensively to the extent he's used to, then his defense is so awful (dead-last in DRPM for SGs with -3.54) that I'd rather play an off-ball threat like Shamet who's less of a liability on D.

An LAC fan could say "we will hide Lou on your weakest offensive player and he will get some points back for us on offense too", but if I am an opposing team I would welcome Lou taking possessions away from Kawhi/PG for sure. I have to assume that Doc will only play Lou when he's sitting one of Kawhi/PG on the bench, but even then I can live with Lou taking possessions away from at least one of them while allowing me to go after him on the other end.

About your suggestion of Cook, I am not a fan of the guy at all. Putting Cook in the game just because Lou is in too, means we're planning to have Cook take advantage of Lou's D, while they'll do the same with Lou on Cook offensively. Why would we walk into a match-up trap like that, what proof exists that suggests that Quinn Cook will win a scoring head-to-head against Lou Williams if each of them has to guard & score on the other?
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#156 » by Ball so hard » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:22 pm

jkokkotos wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:Rondo shot 36% from the 3pt area last season and he was still horrible because he was a bad fit for certain players esp Lebron and his defense is very bad. With Lebron, they were a -3.7 pts per 100 possessions. He was the only player with a negative impact with Lebron aside from Bullock.
Caruso/James combo has a net rating of +11.2 pts/100 possessions but the sample size was only 146 minutes together. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/carusal01/lineups/2019
On the court with Caruso, they are a +4.6pts, off the court they are a -2.8. Rondo on the other hand was a -8.1 pts on the court, and a + 1.5 when he's not playing.
I want to believe the ultimate goal is winning and not playing with buddies bec if that's a case, Lebron would have forced the Lakers to get Carmelo but then again, KCP had a nice contract.


If it was up to me, I would want Caruso/Bradley/KCP sharing all the PG minutes between themselves, but realistically that's not going to happen. I'm the opposite of a Rondo fan, I'd have loved us signing Tyus Jones (1st player ever to post 6:1 assist-to-turnover ratio in a full season last year) or even Trey Burke & they're both far from perfect but that's just how much I don't like Rondo's impact. Having said that, it's obvious Anthony Davis thinks highly of Rondo and LeBron doesn't seem to feel much different either, so I won't pretend that a coach with as much uncertainty surrounding his position as Vogel will have the courage to go directly against AD (on a year where the team wants to resign him) and LeBron together.

I'm a believer in synergy/fit too, we don't have the player personnel needed to maximize Rondo's strengths while covering for his weaknesses, but I'm also quite aware of how low the probability is of Caruso getting more minutes than him at the beginning.

As for Rondo's 35.9 3p%, it's all smoke. Zero substance there. The guy is refusing to take even remotely contested 3s on a regular basis (much less tightly contested ones). He only shoots open (defender being 4-6 ft away) or wide-open (defender being 6+ ft away) 3s, which are high-percentage shots and he still makes them at a far lower clip than the standard NBA Point Guard. You don't need to convince me he's bad, I'm sure he's terrible lol


Edit: I'm adding this as proof of everything I said about his 3pt shooting https://stats.nba.com/player/200765/shots-dash/ . If you check the "Closest Defender" table, he takes 3.0 of his total 3.1 3pt attempts in wide open (2.2) and open (0.8) situations.


Ironically, the guy (Caruso) many here are in favor of giving a majority of the PG minutes, happens to also a very reluctant shooter; approximately 90 percent of his 3pt attempts are considered open to wide open. Caruso is still very much an unknown to me. He's a hardworking player, but he is quite limited offensively. However, he does appear to have solid fundamentals on the defensive end.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#157 » by Ball so hard » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:55 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
jkokkotos wrote:


Regarding KCP's game, you started questioning my logic about giving him 4 mins at PG, I merely pointed it out the obvious...that the guy has already been getting 11% & 27% of his minutes for us playing that position since 2017-18, so now we move the goalposts to his shooting & his defense. If you notice the part of my response that you have quoted above, I never ever said KCP can play D (or be a playmaker for that matter), all I've been saying the entire time is what I expect [u](not want)[/u] to happen with our rotation & minute distribution.

but this is what you said in message # 148
If it was up to me, I would want Caruso/Bradley/KCP sharing all the PG minutes between themselves, but realistically that's not going to happen.


jkokkotos wrote:And since I never call him a defender to begin with, I'm going to look at his shooting. He's a great Catch&Shoot shooter, which is valuable to a team with LeBron & Davis, for the last 3 seasons (from 2016-17 to 2018-19) he has shot 36.7% 40.3% and 36.7% in C&S. His 3P% on Pull-Ups gets worse, but we won't use him at all if what we need is a guy to handle the rock & run the offense, so his steadily good C&S numbers are something we can work with.

We don't disagree anyway, KCP doesn't play D & all the evidence we have in the form of Advanced Stats/Metrics agrees with that. https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

It's great that we agree on most of our opinions and the basis/stats are there too.
I think it's pretty clear now that how much I dislike KCP and I actuallyh based most of it on how much he disappeared when his team needed him most esp when Lebron and Ball got hurt and the time about the trade rumors started. His catch and shoot % seems good enough but then again I ask, how well did he do in Dec to Feb the past 2 years from that stat?
Let me be clear again that I am hoping and praying that he proves me wrong this coming season bec if he fails esp in the early part, might as well give those minutes to Caruso. Rivers would find mins to Lou Williams even if he's a bad defender bet timeouts the last 1-2 mins of his shooting, Might as well use those instances on Cook who shot 46.6% last season and 49% 2 years ago on catch and shoot from the 3pt area, then use Bradley or Caruso on defense.


You're allowing your bias toward KCP affect your ability to be objective. I give you credit for acknowledging your bias. You conveniently picked a few months in which KCP was awful to state how useless he his. On the other hand, you used a month or so in which Caruso was solid to state how much better he was. I'm honestly not sure why people continue to use Caruso's small sample size to project his future. Some are even saying he's an excellent shooter... a guy who had 24 3PM last season. Let that sink in for a second. I pretty much have to assume much of Caruso's praise are hyperbolic.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#158 » by tamaraw08 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:18 pm

jkokkotos wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:

And since I never call him a defender to begin with, I'm going to look at his shooting. He's a great Catch&Shoot shooter, which is valuable to a team with LeBron & Davis, for the last 3 seasons (from 2016-17 to 2018-19) he has shot 36.7% 40.3% and 36.7% in C&S. His 3P% on Pull-Ups gets worse, but we won't use him at all if what we need is a guy to handle the rock & run the offense, so his steadily good C&S numbers are something we can work with.

We don't disagree anyway, KCP doesn't play D & all the evidence we have in the form of Advanced Stats/Metrics agrees with that. https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

tamaraw08 wrote:It's great that we agree on most of our opinions and the basis/stats are there too.
I think it's pretty clear now that how much I dislike KCP and I actuallyh based most of it on how much he disappeared when his team needed him most esp when Lebron and Ball got hurt and the time about the trade rumors started. His catch and shoot % seems good enough but then again I ask, how well did he do in Dec to Feb the past 2 years from that stat?
Let me be clear again that I am hoping and praying that he proves me wrong this coming season bec if he fails esp in the early part, might as well give those minutes to Caruso. Rivers would find mins to Lou Williams even if he's a bad defender bet timeouts the last 1-2 mins of his shooting, Might as well use those instances on Cook who shot 46.6% last season and 49% 2 years ago on catch and shoot from the 3pt area, then use Bradley or Caruso on defense.

I'm not sure Lou is actually as valuable to that team as I used to believe like a month ago, I have changed my mind a bit on that matter after looking at a few advanced metrics other than just RPM (which already suggested that though). Lou's value won't show on a team that has two dominant iso-heavy wings like Kawhi and PG. And they aren't just big scorers who play a lot of iso-ball just like Lou, but also they're more efficient scorers than him. Lou needs to have a high Usage Rate to be a 'net positive' on the court, if he can't monopolize possessions offensively to the extent he's used to, then his defense is so awful (dead-last in DRPM for SGs with -3.54) that I'd rather play an off-ball threat like Shamet who's less of a liability on D.

An LAC fan could say "we will hide Lou on your weakest offensive player and he will get some points back for us on offense too", but if I am an opposing team I would welcome Lou taking possessions away from Kawhi/PG for sure. I have to assume that Doc will only play Lou when he's sitting one of Kawhi/PG on the bench, but even then I can live with Lou taking possessions away from at least one of them while allowing me to go after him on the other end.

About your suggestion of Cook, I am not a fan of the guy at all. Putting Cook in the game just because Lou is in too, means we're planning to have Cook take advantage of Lou's D, while they'll do the same with Lou on Cook offensively. Why would we walk into a match-up trap like that, what proof exists that suggests that Quinn Cook will win a scoring head-to-head against Lou Williams if each of them has to guard & score on the other?

I mentioned how Doc use a bad defender like LouWill in crucial offense/Defense situations as an example of how Vogel might use Cook more bec he too is a bad defender. You mentioned KCP being a great catch and shoot guy at 36%. My reply was in certain situations when you really need a basket final 2 offensive possessions with 2 timeouts and end of quarters etc, Lakers has the ball, I would feel much better putting Cook (SHOT 46 AND 49% from 3pt area to catch and shoot instead of KCP but that is just my preference. The guy has been pretty solid from the 3pt area across the board (never shot lower than 37%) from splits like wins and losses, home and road, post and pre all star unlike other players. KCP btw for his career, never shot above 37% in most splits, home and road, pre and post allstar except for wins situations. He shot 30.9% in 268 losses which is 57% of the time. But I am aware Cook is a historically a bad defender so I am not implying he should be used extensively unless Vogel finds a way to get him help.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#159 » by lalalaker » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:41 am

As much as ppl like rondo since he does have experience and a ring he does not fit with lebron and the first unit he is a much better fit with the 2nd unit. caruso or cook is my choice to start as they arent ball dominant and are a better shooter than rondo. i would rather go with caruso at the one bc of his defense and vision and frame.

caruso
green
lebron
davis
mcgee to start

rondo
cook
avery
kuzma
dwight for 2nd unit

what this team lack right now is depth at wing defending 3/4. kuzma to me can be 3 to 5 but against teams that go big we really lack size. would help alot if we can get igoudala. i do like antetakoumpo's size but he still needs work. we have unknown rookies who can only play 1-2 and we are too loaded at the spot. still dont see why we needed to bring back kcp. we needed to sign some 3s and 4s more.
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Re: Lakers Starting Line up 

Post#160 » by lalalaker » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:41 am

As much as ppl like rondo since he does have experience and a ring he does not fit with lebron and the first unit he is a much better fit with the 2nd unit. caruso or cook is my choice to start as they arent ball dominant and are a better shooter than rondo. i would rather go with caruso at the one bc of his defense and vision and frame.

caruso
green
lebron
davis
mcgee to start

rondo
cook
avery
kuzma
dwight for 2nd unit

what this team lack right now is depth at wing defending 3/4. kuzma to me can be 3 to 5 but against teams that go big we really lack size. would help alot if we can get igoudala. i do like antetakoumpo's size but he still needs work. we have unknown rookies who can only play 1-2 and we are too loaded at the spot. still dont see why we needed to bring back kcp. we needed to sign some 3s and 4s more.

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