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How good defensively could this team be?

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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#21 » by iamworthy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:44 am

ShowtimeFan wrote:I do not believe the new Coach and his staff will keep the Matador-defense Luke ran last year, so yeah, it should MUCH better...


Agree. I don't know much about Vogel but his team's seem to play well on defense.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#22 » by dAdo dA dEvil » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:35 pm

The barometer on D will be LeBron. We all know that AD, McGee and Green are good defenders. If we start Bradley / Caruso at point then we will also be good at that spot defensive wise. If LeBron plays D this season then we'll be very good. If LeBron will play D like last year we'll still be good.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#24 » by tamaraw08 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:12 pm



Thanks for the link. Nice breakdown but I must admit I bothered me with some of his statements.
The Los Angeles Lakers were average defensively last year, and average does not win NBA championships. It won't even get you in the playoffs in the West.

Four teams ranked lower in Defensive rating than the Lakers that have got in to the playoffs namely Rockets, Spurs(ranked 20th, Clips(19th), Blazers. Lakers ranked 13th, which meant they were better than 17 other teams.
Dakhil imbelished on what Vogel's team did at Indiana and NEVER MENTIONED what the freak happened to his team in Orlando where the team actually ranked BETTER before he got there under Skiles and MUCH BETTER after he left under Clifford with the relatively the same core. and oh btw, Indiana ranked 3rd best 2 years after Vogel left which is leading me to doubt slightly if he was the one who spearheaded that team's defense or was it Nate McMillan, a NOTED defensive stopper as a player.
As a Laker fan, I truly hope Vogel is up to the task, I just wish writers would do a little more research on what happened to him specifically the past 2-3 years instead of re living his Indiana days.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#25 » by thebigbird » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:18 pm

dAdo dA dEvil wrote:The barometer on D will be LeBron. We all know that AD, McGee and Green are good defenders. If we start Bradley / Caruso at point then we will also be good at that spot defensive wise. If LeBron plays D this season then we'll be very good. If LeBron will play D like last year we'll still be good.

LeBron was above average on defense last year, don't let the twitter videos fool you. Top 10% in DRPM and above average to elite in almost every individual defensive category. If he plays on defense like he did last year then the Lakers will be great on that end with the new additions.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#26 » by Ainosterhaspie » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:25 pm

A Bradley/Green/James/Davis core is going to be very good defensively. Not sure who the fifth would be for their best defensive unit, but that core can let you go big or small depending on the matchup.

James' recent defensive shortcomings are partially due to not having the right pieces around him. He's never played with a rim protector like Davis. That is going to help him. He should be able to play to his strength of being an off ball disruptor more.

This team could be scary good defensively if they want to, but given James' tendency to save himself for the post season, it may not really show until then.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#27 » by dAdo dA dEvil » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:05 am

thebigbird wrote:
dAdo dA dEvil wrote:The barometer on D will be LeBron. We all know that AD, McGee and Green are good defenders. If we start Bradley / Caruso at point then we will also be good at that spot defensive wise. If LeBron plays D this season then we'll be very good. If LeBron will play D like last year we'll still be good.

LeBron was above average on defense last year, don't let the twitter videos fool you. Top 10% in DRPM and above average to elite in almost every individual defensive category. If he plays on defense like he did last year then the Lakers will be great on that end with the new additions.


Definitely no twitter videos fool me. I don't have a twitter account either. I based on the games that I watched and he's definitely not an above average defender for me. But I think the addition of AD will motivate him to play D better than last year. As what I've said, we are already a good defensive team with AD, McGee, Green and Bradley / Caruso. If LeBron will step it up a notch than he did last year then we will be very good.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#28 » by thebigbird » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:57 am

dAdo dA dEvil wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
dAdo dA dEvil wrote:The barometer on D will be LeBron. We all know that AD, McGee and Green are good defenders. If we start Bradley / Caruso at point then we will also be good at that spot defensive wise. If LeBron plays D this season then we'll be very good. If LeBron will play D like last year we'll still be good.

LeBron was above average on defense last year, don't let the twitter videos fool you. Top 10% in DRPM and above average to elite in almost every individual defensive category. If he plays on defense like he did last year then the Lakers will be great on that end with the new additions.


Definitely no twitter videos fool me. I don't have a twitter account either. I based on the games that I watched and he's definitely not an above average defender for me. But I think the addition of AD will motivate him to play D better than last year. As what I've said, we are already a good defensive team with AD, McGee, Green and Bradley / Caruso. If LeBron will step it up a notch than he did last year then we will be very good.

He may not have been an above average defender to you, but that's what the numbers have him as..

The Lakers were 3.1 points per 100 possession BETTER defensively with James on court.
With James ON court, the Lakers’ defense was equivalent to the 10th ranked defense.
With James OFF court, the Lakers’ defense was equivalent to the 23rd ranked defense.

Through December when LeBron got hurt, the Lakers were the 10th best defense in the NBA and they were still better with LeBron on the court than LeBron off the court. Of course, team numbers are affected by who else is on the court. Lonzo Ball is considered to be a really good defensive player, so those numbers could be skewed. But, the team was much better defensively with LeBron on and Lonzo off than vice versa.

In 821 minutes together the LeBron/Lonzo combo posted a DRtg of 106.12 — around a top 5 defense when together.

LeBron with Lonzo OFF, Drtg of 108.68 (2.56 PP100 worse than when playing together)

Lonzo with LeBron OFF, Drtg of 123.48 (17.36 PP100 worse than when playing together)

LeBron's DRPM was in the top 10% of all players last year.

He was:
Top 6% in defending the pick and roll ball handler
Top 10% in defending hand offs
Top 14% in defending the roll man in pick and roll
Top 20% in defending off of screens
Top 27% in defending in ISO
Top 30% in post up defense
Top 43% in spot up defense (only defense he was average in)

Players shot 3.8% worse than their season averages when guarded by LeBron, a bigger drop than players had against Paul George, Jimmy Butler, and Kawhi Leonard.

No one statistic is definitive, but I think it would be very hard to make an argument that he was a bad defender last season given his individual numbers and the team numbers with him vs. without him. I expect people to be pleased with his defense this season.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#29 » by tamaraw08 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:38 pm

Ainosterhaspie wrote:A Bradley/Green/James/Davis core is going to be very good defensively. Not sure who the fifth would be for their best defensive unit, but that core can let you go big or small depending on the matchup.

James' recent defensive shortcomings are partially due to not having the right pieces around him. He's never played with a rim protector like Davis. That is going to help him. He should be able to play to his strength of being an off ball disruptor more.

This team could be scary good defensively if they want to, but given James' tendency to save himself for the post season, it may not really show until then.


I feel the best defensive combo is with AD playing Center bec of his ability to switch in the perimeter with a focused Lebron, Green, Bradley and Dudley or Caruso if the other team is playing small. I will be shocked if Kuzma will not get better defensively this coming season. This guy is very dedicated to get better and there was talk he was seeking help from guys like Artest etc.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#30 » by IAMRANDYMARSH » Thu Aug 1, 2019 2:51 pm

zimpy27 wrote:I added up the defensive RPM scores of last season for the starting lineup of teams this coming season.

Caruso, Green, LeBron, AD, Cousins actually has the highest score in the league.

Defensive stats love Cousins, both seasons on the Pelicans he had the best defensive RPM and defensive rating per 100 with AD coming second both years.

The starting unit could be the number 1 defensive lineup in the league but the bench defense is very bad. Caruso had the worst defensive RPM of the Lakers starters at 0.77. Only two bench players had an RPM above 0, Dudley with 0.74 and McGee with 0.16.

What ranking would you give the defense of this team?


I think this team can be top 10 defensively and i think certain guys, such as Avery Bradley and KCP are going to surprise a lot of people. Stat-heads are generally low on Bradley but lot is due to injuries and his job on this team is going to be to harass small guards such as Curry and Dame, which he still can do. People have been hating on KCP to a point where he's starting to be a bit underrated in my opinion.

The one area where i do have some concerns are at the wing position. Lebron can turn it on and off, which is great, but Dudley is old, Kuz isn't great and we're too dependent on Danny Green in my opinion.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#31 » by Max Headrom » Sat Aug 3, 2019 12:14 am

IAMRANDYMARSH wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:I added up the defensive RPM scores of last season for the starting lineup of teams this coming season.

Caruso, Green, LeBron, AD, Cousins actually has the highest score in the league.

Defensive stats love Cousins, both seasons on the Pelicans he had the best defensive RPM and defensive rating per 100 with AD coming second both years.

The starting unit could be the number 1 defensive lineup in the league but the bench defense is very bad. Caruso had the worst defensive RPM of the Lakers starters at 0.77. Only two bench players had an RPM above 0, Dudley with 0.74 and McGee with 0.16.

What ranking would you give the defense of this team?


I think this team can be top 10 defensively and i think certain guys, such as Avery Bradley and KCP are going to surprise a lot of people. Stat-heads are generally low on Bradley but lot is due to injuries and his job on this team is going to be to harass small guards such as Curry and Dame, which he still can do. People have been hating on KCP to a point where he's starting to be a bit underrated in my opinion.

The one area where i do have some concerns are at the wing position. Lebron can turn it on and off, which is great, but Dudley is old, Kuz isn't great and we're too dependent on Danny Green in my opinion.


As someone that had to watch Bradley up until the trade deadline last year I can honestly say he was so frustrating to watch. He definitely isn't as good defensively as he was in Boston and he doesn't realize or embrace his role. He actually had the nerve to question Doc because he thought the offense should've ran through him more after being treated to the Grizzlies and I was dumbfounded by that.

He fouls a lot, gambles a lot and takes a lot of long two's. Just trying to temper expectations because it's not that I had really high hopes for him, I just didn't expect him to be as bad as he was last season.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#32 » by stan francisco » Sat Aug 3, 2019 8:39 pm

I heard he picked it up toward end of season, but I haven’t watched him play since the Celtics days.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso24, Bradley4, Rondo3, Norvell1
SG: Green24, Pope12, Bradley8, Daniels3, Cook1
SF: Kuzma24, James16, THT6, Caroline2
PF: Davis32, Kuzma12, Dudley3, Cacok1
C: Cousins24, McGee20, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#33 » by what would jack bauer do? » Sat Aug 3, 2019 11:11 pm

Max Headrom wrote:
IAMRANDYMARSH wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:I added up the defensive RPM scores of last season for the starting lineup of teams this coming season.

Caruso, Green, LeBron, AD, Cousins actually has the highest score in the league.

Defensive stats love Cousins, both seasons on the Pelicans he had the best defensive RPM and defensive rating per 100 with AD coming second both years.

The starting unit could be the number 1 defensive lineup in the league but the bench defense is very bad. Caruso had the worst defensive RPM of the Lakers starters at 0.77. Only two bench players had an RPM above 0, Dudley with 0.74 and McGee with 0.16.

What ranking would you give the defense of this team?


I think this team can be top 10 defensively and i think certain guys, such as Avery Bradley and KCP are going to surprise a lot of people. Stat-heads are generally low on Bradley but lot is due to injuries and his job on this team is going to be to harass small guards such as Curry and Dame, which he still can do. People have been hating on KCP to a point where he's starting to be a bit underrated in my opinion.

The one area where i do have some concerns are at the wing position. Lebron can turn it on and off, which is great, but Dudley is old, Kuz isn't great and we're too dependent on Danny Green in my opinion.


As someone that had to watch Bradley up until the trade deadline last year I can honestly say he was so frustrating to watch. He definitely isn't as good defensively as he was in Boston and he doesn't realize or embrace his role. He actually had the nerve to question Doc because he thought the offense should've ran through him more after being treated to the Grizzlies and I was dumbfounded by that.

He fouls a lot, gambles a lot and takes a lot of long two's. Just trying to temper expectations because it's not that I had really high hopes for him, I just didn't expect him to be as bad as he was last season.


Well, Bradley had a strong post all star, but then again guys always play harder when they're trying to showcase for their next contract. Which actually bodes well for us since he's on a short deal again.

An nba video coordinator (mo dahkil) on espnla says he's dropped weight and looks ready to have a good year. I hope that helps him in defending point guards and also finally having an injury-free season.

I think the revenge factor will be brought up to a max and he'll give us outstanding performances on opening night and on Christmas even if he has another worst case subpar season overall. And shoot, anything is better than having Rondo on the floor.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#34 » by Max Headrom » Sun Aug 4, 2019 12:56 am

what would jack bauer do? wrote:
Max Headrom wrote:
IAMRANDYMARSH wrote:
I think this team can be top 10 defensively and i think certain guys, such as Avery Bradley and KCP are going to surprise a lot of people. Stat-heads are generally low on Bradley but lot is due to injuries and his job on this team is going to be to harass small guards such as Curry and Dame, which he still can do. People have been hating on KCP to a point where he's starting to be a bit underrated in my opinion.

The one area where i do have some concerns are at the wing position. Lebron can turn it on and off, which is great, but Dudley is old, Kuz isn't great and we're too dependent on Danny Green in my opinion.


As someone that had to watch Bradley up until the trade deadline last year I can honestly say he was so frustrating to watch. He definitely isn't as good defensively as he was in Boston and he doesn't realize or embrace his role. He actually had the nerve to question Doc because he thought the offense should've ran through him more after being treated to the Grizzlies and I was dumbfounded by that.

He fouls a lot, gambles a lot and takes a lot of long two's. Just trying to temper expectations because it's not that I had really high hopes for him, I just didn't expect him to be as bad as he was last season.


Well, Bradley had a strong post all star, but then again guys always play harder when they're trying to showcase for their next contract. Which actually bodes well for us since he's on a short deal again.

An nba video coordinator (mo dahkil) on espnla says he's dropped weight and looks ready to have a good year. I hope that helps him in defending point guards and also finally having an injury-free season.

I think the revenge factor will be brought up to a max and he'll give us outstanding performances on opening night and on Christmas even if he has another worst case subpar season overall. And shoot, anything is better than having Rondo on the floor.


Well, after the trade the Grizzlies tanked so, he had a green light to shoot as much as he wanted.

The thing with Bradley is he thinks he's a lot better than he actually is at this point in his career.

All I'm saying is, you just take the good games he has but don't expect much out of him consistently because the more expectation you have with him, the more disappointed you'd be.

And as bad as Rondo can be at times, at least he understands his role and won't try and play outside of his wheelhouse.

Welp, good luck this season though because the battle between the LA teams are gonna be pretty epic.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#35 » by stan francisco » Sun Aug 4, 2019 2:25 am

Prediction: Bradley will not be able to outplay Caruso for minutes, he’ll be our third string PG behind LeBron and Caruso, Rondo being at a 6MPG schedule until ASB.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso24, Bradley4, Rondo3, Norvell1
SG: Green24, Pope12, Bradley8, Daniels3, Cook1
SF: Kuzma24, James16, THT6, Caroline2
PF: Davis32, Kuzma12, Dudley3, Cacok1
C: Cousins24, McGee20, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#36 » by john248 » Sun Aug 4, 2019 4:02 am

Vogel wasn't the architect of the defense during his time with the Pacers which was why Bird considered him expendable.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#37 » by stan francisco » Sun Aug 4, 2019 2:18 pm

john248 wrote:Vogel wasn't the architect of the defense during his time with the Pacers which was why Bird considered him expendable.


I guess Kidd will be the McMillan equivalent on Vogel’s new coaching staff.

We all know how good he was defensively as a player, but how did his teams perform defensively in the past? I’m asking, not making a statement. It’s one thing being talented, another to teach D. We also have Hollins...
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso24, Bradley4, Rondo3, Norvell1
SG: Green24, Pope12, Bradley8, Daniels3, Cook1
SF: Kuzma24, James16, THT6, Caroline2
PF: Davis32, Kuzma12, Dudley3, Cacok1
C: Cousins24, McGee20, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#38 » by dockingsched » Mon Aug 5, 2019 12:05 am

Vogel himself stated during his rough time with the Magic that his defensive schemes and overall philosophy from his Indiana days was for the most part irrelevant to how teams need to play defense nowadays.

People put way too much effort in dissecting defense from his Indiana days.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#39 » by john248 » Tue Aug 6, 2019 3:18 am

And that's just it. We don't know what he will bring in terms of his defensive schemes. It really isn't so much dissecting his defense from Indiana but rather he wasn't really the guy behind it at all as Bird kept Dan Burke as an assistant coach in charge of the defense for years. Really what we're hoping here is that Lionel Hollins can build this defense from the ground up even if it was David Joerger was really doing most of the heavy lifting back when the Grizzlies were making their run. Same when Lawrence Frank was an assistant coach under Kidd for a few months before Kidd got insecure and banned Frank from the bench.

Maybe this is a glass half empty point of view. But this coaching staff is a huge question mark and are tasked to come up with a defensive identity.
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Re: How good defensively could this team be? 

Post#40 » by tamaraw08 » Wed Aug 7, 2019 2:49 am

john248 wrote:And that's just it. We don't know what he will bring in terms of his defensive schemes. It really isn't so much dissecting his defense from Indiana but rather he wasn't really the guy behind it at all as Bird kept Dan Burke as an assistant coach in charge of the defense for years. Really what we're hoping here is that Lionel Hollins can build this defense from the ground up even if it was David Joerger was really doing most of the heavy lifting back when the Grizzlies were making their run. Same when Lawrence Frank was an assistant coach under Kidd for a few months before Kidd got insecure and banned Frank from the bench.

Maybe this is a glass half empty point of view. But this coaching staff is a huge question mark and are tasked to come up with a defensive identity.

I would have loved to refute your claims about their assistants doing the heavy lifting bur I can’t. There’s a reason why all 3 of these guys are available, and all them were fired because their former teams did badly under them and its a concern for me that the times they appeared to do well was the fact that when they left, those teams didn’t exactly crumble. Orlando got so much better on defense right after Vogel got canned. Memphis were still ok after Hollins while under Joerger and Bucks significantly got better when Bud replaced Kidd.
I however I don’t think they are incompetent and Hopefully all three have learned a lot from their past mistakes.

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