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Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster

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Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#1 » by zimpy27 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:05 am

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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#2 » by TylersLakers » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:30 am

Yeah, Rondo's a concern. The coaching staff just has to have the stones to not play him in certain matchups or put him with line-ups he can have success with. For example:

Rondo
Bradley
Green
Kuz
Davis

Put a couple defensive minded bulldogs along side him (Green, Bradley), a pick & roll player (Davis/Cousins), and guys who can cut and shoot.

Best thing: He's on a minimum deal, and shouldn't play more than 18-22 MPG.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#3 » by zimpy27 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:33 am

TylersLakers wrote:Yeah, Rondo's a concern. The coaching staff just has to have the stones to not play him in certain matchups or put him with line-ups he can have success with. For example:

Rondo
Bradley
Green
Kuz
Davis

Put a couple defensive minded bulldogs along side him (Green, Bradley), a pick & roll player (Davis/Cousins), and guys who can cut and shoot.

Best thing: He's on a minimum deal, and shouldn't play more than 18-22 MPG.


I don't think Rondo needs to play at all tbh, which means he has to play hard for his minutes. Hopefully, he isn't just given minutes because he's a veteran. He needs work on making others better.


Green-LeBron-AD need a post-defender and the best 3-shooter with them. McGee and Cook/Daniels.

KCP-Kuzma-Cousins need a playmaker sure, but that could easily be Caruso and Bradley together sharing the role, which actually suits Cousins.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#4 » by Slava » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:00 am

This is exactly why I considered Rondo a litmus test for this regime. If they go by advanced stats and impact, he has no business being on an NBA roster, yet they brought him back, albeit on the minimum. Every minute he's on the court is less than optimal.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#5 » by lazybatman » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:59 pm

zimpy27 wrote:Cousins, Kuzma, McGee, KCP, LeBron, Caruso, AD all had either just about their worst +/- with Rondo for the season they played with him:

Cousins: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/couside01/lineups/2018#lineups-2-man::14
Kuzma: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmaky01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
McGee: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgeeja01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
KCP: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caldwke01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
LeBron: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
Caruso: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/carusal01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
AD: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/davisan02/lineups/2018#lineups-2-man::14


This is reasonably concerning, I am sure he gets a chance to grow some chemistry but I hope the coaches are ok with not playing him if he ends up putting these numbers again.


Boy, does this look bad.. Nice job compiling it.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#6 » by evilpimp972 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:03 am

That's why we should not have signed him back. Now his reputation will command that he should start, or be on the bench, while his real level is the G league.
I'm betting that Caruso doesn't see any play at least until January.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#7 » by LAKESHOW » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:57 am

Im ok with cook at the point. Champiomship experience. Faster. Can shoot. Can dish. Can sit and camp while Bron does his thing, and sink a 3 from any camping spot. Also seems to have a midrange. Not mention hes younger.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#8 » by SlimShady83 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:19 am

Caruso should start the season at least... Have Rondo/Bradley run the 2nd team
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#9 » by Pythagoras » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:37 am

zimpy27 wrote:Cousins, Kuzma, McGee, KCP, LeBron, Caruso, AD all had just about their worst +/- with Rondo for the season they played with him:

Cousins: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/couside01/lineups/2018#lineups-2-man::14
Kuzma: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmaky01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
McGee: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgeeja01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
KCP: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caldwke01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
LeBron: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
Caruso: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/carusal01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
AD: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/davisan02/lineups/2018#lineups-2-man::14


This is reasonably concerning, I am sure he gets a chance to grow some chemistry but I hope the coaches are ok with not playing him if he ends up putting these numbers again.


There was no move I hated more this offseason than the team bringing back Rondo. There's no path to where I want to see him playing heavy minutes barring injury:

Starters, assuming LBJ isn't playing the point:
Caruso, Green, Lebron, AD, Cousins

Second team:
Cook, Bradley/KCP, Daniels/Dudley, Kuzma, McGee

There are 96 minutes to split up for the back court rotation players of Caruso, Green, Cook, Bradley, and KCP. I don't care to see Rondo eat into any of those guy's minutes.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#10 » by tamaraw08 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:25 pm

lazybatman wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:Cousins, Kuzma, McGee, KCP, LeBron, Caruso, AD all had either just about their worst +/- with Rondo for the season they played with him:

Cousins: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/couside01/lineups/2018#lineups-2-man::14
Kuzma: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmaky01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
McGee: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgeeja01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
KCP: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caldwke01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
LeBron: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
Caruso: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/carusal01/lineups/2019#lineups-2-man::14
AD: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/davisan02/lineups/2018#lineups-2-man::14


This is reasonably concerning, I am sure he gets a chance to grow some chemistry but I hope the coaches are ok with not playing him if he ends up putting these numbers again.


Boy, does this look bad.. Nice job compiling it.

Yes, I appreciate the great research too. I didn't like Rondo coming back but after getting DMC and AD, I think Rondo would contribute like at least 6 assists, 5 easy shots per game in 20 minutes. His defense would be a concern and of course his lack of perimeter shooting. Having said that, it's hard to ignore what he did with NO vs Portland, Averaging 11pts, 13.3 assists and 7.5 rebs.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#11 » by stan francisco » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:42 pm

Again, are these stats from up until the injury(ies), or from the entire season?

I keep bringing it up but Rondo pre injury last season looked decent for his age.

When 4/5 of the entire starting lineup are injured, no stats matter unless circumstances are pointed out. Not until last 10-15 games when some had come back and where healthy again and our rotations were at least competitive.

Rondo’s value is in his know-how, not his knees. Give him 4-6 minutes per game until a month ahead of the playoffs. He’ll be worth his weight in gold in a seven game series for his defensive strategies alone. Harden says hello.

And based on my eye test leading up to that Christmas game, Rondo was playing well. I’d be surprised if he was a negative impact player for that stretch.
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PG: James16, Caruso24, Bradley4, Rondo3, Norvell1
SG: Green24, Pope12, Bradley8, Daniels3, Cook1
SF: Kuzma24, James16, THT6, Caroline2
PF: Davis32, Kuzma12, Dudley3, Cacok1
C: Cousins24, McGee20, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#12 » by zimpy27 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:14 pm

stan francisco wrote:Again, are these stats from up until the injury(ies), or from the entire season?

I keep bringing it up but Rondo pre injury last season looked decent for his age.

When 4/5 of the entire starting lineup are injured, no stats matter unless circumstances are pointed out. Not until last 10-15 games when some had come back and where healthy again and our rotations were at least competitive.

Rondo’s value is in his know-how, not his knees. Give him 4-6 minutes per game until a month ahead of the playoffs. He’ll be worth his weight in gold in a seven game series for his defensive strategies alone. Harden says hello.

And based on my eye test leading up to that Christmas game, Rondo was playing well. I’d be surprised if he was a negative impact player for that stretch.


It's based on the entire last 2 seasons. Not just small sections.

It's consistent for all players, he dragged them all down compared to every other one of their teammates.

These stats are pretty strong. You can't really undermine them.

I still think it's worth giving him a shot but it should be monitored.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#13 » by Pythagoras » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:56 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:Again, are these stats from up until the injury(ies), or from the entire season?

I keep bringing it up but Rondo pre injury last season looked decent for his age.

When 4/5 of the entire starting lineup are injured, no stats matter unless circumstances are pointed out. Not until last 10-15 games when some had come back and where healthy again and our rotations were at least competitive.

Rondo’s value is in his know-how, not his knees. Give him 4-6 minutes per game until a month ahead of the playoffs. He’ll be worth his weight in gold in a seven game series for his defensive strategies alone. Harden says hello.

And based on my eye test leading up to that Christmas game, Rondo was playing well. I’d be surprised if he was a negative impact player for that stretch.


It's based on the entire last 2 seasons. Not just small sections.

It's consistent for all players, he dragged them all down compared to every other one of their teammates.

These stats are pretty strong. You can't really undermine them.

I still think it's worth giving him a shot but it should be monitored.


Your research was not only on point it was overly generous to Rondo.

Going all the way back to 2014

The Mavericks top 20 2-man rotations for min played, Rondo holds the only 3 net negative ratings on that list:
With Chandler -3.2
With Ellis -2.8
With Parsons -1.7

The next year with the Kings:

Rondo occupies the worst spot, then 6th and 7th worst spots on their top 20 2-man for mins, and they’re all negative:
With Belinelli -9.5
With Cayley-Stein -4.0
With Collison -3.6

The next year with the Bulls:
On their top 20, Rondo has second and fourth worst spots:
With Wade -5.6
With Gibson -2.4

Next year with Pelicans, Rondo holds down the worst spot:
With Cousins: -7.3

Last year with Lakers:
Worst and 5th worst slots:
With KCP -10.0
With Kuzma -6.3

Rondo’s overall on-off those years?
Mavs -6.7
Kings -2.1
Bulls -4.5
Pelicans -2.6
Lakers -9.4

There’s ample evidence that Rondo hasn’t been a positive contributor to winning since the Celtics big 3 broke up. I don’t know that there’s any other player in the league living more off reputation than him right now. He’s a bad basketball player.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#14 » by zimpy27 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:05 am

Pythagoras wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:Again, are these stats from up until the injury(ies), or from the entire season?

I keep bringing it up but Rondo pre injury last season looked decent for his age.

When 4/5 of the entire starting lineup are injured, no stats matter unless circumstances are pointed out. Not until last 10-15 games when some had come back and where healthy again and our rotations were at least competitive.

Rondo’s value is in his know-how, not his knees. Give him 4-6 minutes per game until a month ahead of the playoffs. He’ll be worth his weight in gold in a seven game series for his defensive strategies alone. Harden says hello.

And based on my eye test leading up to that Christmas game, Rondo was playing well. I’d be surprised if he was a negative impact player for that stretch.


It's based on the entire last 2 seasons. Not just small sections.

It's consistent for all players, he dragged them all down compared to every other one of their teammates.

These stats are pretty strong. You can't really undermine them.

I still think it's worth giving him a shot but it should be monitored.


Your research was not only on point it was overly generous to Rondo.

Going all the way back to 2014

The Mavericks top 20 2-man rotations for min played, Rondo holds the only 3 net negative ratings on that list:
With Chandler -3.2
With Ellis -2.8
With Parsons -1.7

The next year with the Kings:

Rondo occupies the worst spot, then 6th and 7th worst spots on their top 20 2-man for mins, and they’re all negative:
With Belinelli -9.5
With Cayley-Stein -4.0
With Collison -3.6

The next year with the Bulls:
On their top 20, Rondo has second and fourth worst spots:
With Wade -5.6
With Gibson -2.4

Next year with Pelicans, Rondo holds down the worst spot:
With Cousins: -7.3

Last year with Lakers:
Worst and 5th worst slots:
With KCP -10.0
With Kuzma -6.3

Rondo’s overall on-off those years?
Mavs -6.7
Kings -2.1
Bulls -4.5
Pelicans -2.6
Lakers -9.4

There’s ample evidence that Rondo hasn’t been a positive contributor to winning since the Celtics big 3 broke up. I don’t know that there’s any other player in the league living more off reputation than him right now. He’s a bad basketball player.


Nice research, yeah it's been a long time since he was himself, I would say since he did that ACL injury in 2012-13. He never got his impact back. He's still a smart guy and worthwhile having on the bench.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#15 » by Kilroy » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:20 am

This is a good discussion point and something to keep an eye on... But it's a little bit over-analysis at this point, maybe...

I don't know if Rondo's ever played with a team like this... Would love to know his stats on the Celtics.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#16 » by Pythagoras » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:37 am

Kilroy wrote:This is a good discussion point and something to keep an eye on... But it's a little bit over-analysis at this point, maybe...

I don't know if Rondo's ever played with a team like this... Would love to know his stats on the Celtics.


To be clear, this is definitely one of the best teams Rondo has been on and I fully expect to win 50+ games even if he plays significant minutes. Additionally, Rondo was definitely a positive impact player during the Celtics big 3 era, but a big part of that was his defense...

People often associate Rondo with his assists and breaking down the opposing d in his heyday, but his true calling card was his defense. Rondo USED to be an elite defensive guard, but he coasts a bunch on that end now, and it really hurts his impact. This is where my fear lies. In the later rounds of the playoffs he can’t be letting people blow by him and leave our bigs out to dry. I get that he’s older and the ACL injury robbed him of some of his explosiveness, but he’s a high enough IQ player that he could give more on that end.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#17 » by LAKESHOW » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:04 am

My Rondo worry? When we last played Rondo in the finals, Kobe over a 7 game series was just about playing illegal defense. All is needed is for a guard like beverley to take him, or murray, or lillard, or westbrook, or mitchell and they will double down all day on our offensive weapons. He is a serious liability with his shooting.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#18 » by stan francisco » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:04 am

These are some damning reports. I am surely guilty of wearing them Laker colored glasses, and he is a Laker.

Hmm. Usually stats back up the eye test, not used to this inner conflict that arose, lol. Well, as I recall Rondo seemed to have good to very good impact on the team leading up to and including the Christmas game, pre injury debacle, but I could be wrong. I thought he looked like his old self there again, but man those are some brutal stats you bring...
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso24, Bradley4, Rondo3, Norvell1
SG: Green24, Pope12, Bradley8, Daniels3, Cook1
SF: Kuzma24, James16, THT6, Caroline2
PF: Davis32, Kuzma12, Dudley3, Cacok1
C: Cousins24, McGee20, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#19 » by Kilroy » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:05 am

Rondo's at best, our backup PG... Bradley, Caruso, Cook can all beat him for the starting job... KCP probably too.. Maybe even Daniels?
So I'm not too worried about what Rondo does or doesn't do. He may not even play a whole lot in the regular season. We may just hold him back as a glue guy and a playoff impact player.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#20 » by nzahir » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:14 am

stan francisco wrote:These are some damning reports. I am surely guilty of wearing them Laker colored glasses, and he is a Laker.

Hmm. Usually stats back up the eye test, not used to this inner conflict that arose, lol. Well, as I recall Rondo seemed to have good to very good impact on the team leading up to and including the Christmas game, pre injury debacle, but I could be wrong. I thought he looked like his old self there again, but man those are some brutal stats you bring...

Eye test only is GARBAGE

Impossible to watch every play and then specially watch for every play and how he moves on both ends

He was beyond pathetic on defense, wide open all the time, passed up a lot of good looks, and so many lazy lazy passes

I would rather go Caruso/Avery>Cook>Rondo in terms of point guard chart

None are perfect (maybe Caruso can be as he has least amount of flaws if he can shoot it consistently), but they all do something decent.
Caruso can pass the ball and good defensive effort. Spark plug last year.
Avery (if back to semi old self) is a very good defender who can shoot it at avg rate.
Cook is a very good 3 point shooter.

What does rondo do well now?

I do wish we had 1 clear cut pg, but if Avery is back then its him closing games. Or if Caruso takes a step, then it may be him

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