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Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster

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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#21 » by stan francisco » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:11 pm

nzahir wrote:
stan francisco wrote:These are some damning reports. I am surely guilty of wearing them Laker colored glasses, and he is a Laker.

Hmm. Usually stats back up the eye test, not used to this inner conflict that arose, lol. Well, as I recall Rondo seemed to have good to very good impact on the team leading up to and including the Christmas game, pre injury debacle, but I could be wrong. I thought he looked like his old self there again, but man those are some brutal stats you bring...

Eye test only is GARBAGE


I’d say that’s highly individual.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso24, Bradley4, Rondo3, Norvell1
SG: Green24, Pope12, Bradley8, Daniels3, Cook1
SF: Kuzma24, James16, THT6, Caroline2
PF: Davis32, Kuzma12, Dudley3, Cacok1
C: Cousins24, McGee20, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#22 » by tamaraw08 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:29 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
It's based on the entire last 2 seasons. Not just small sections.

It's consistent for all players, he dragged them all down compared to every other one of their teammates.

These stats are pretty strong. You can't really undermine them.

I still think it's worth giving him a shot but it should be monitored.


Your research was not only on point it was overly generous to Rondo.

Going all the way back to 2014

The Mavericks top 20 2-man rotations for min played, Rondo holds the only 3 net negative ratings on that list:
With Chandler -3.2
With Ellis -2.8
With Parsons -1.7

The next year with the Kings:

Rondo occupies the worst spot, then 6th and 7th worst spots on their top 20 2-man for mins, and they’re all negative:
With Belinelli -9.5
With Cayley-Stein -4.0
With Collison -3.6

The next year with the Bulls:
On their top 20, Rondo has second and fourth worst spots:
With Wade -5.6
With Gibson -2.4

Next year with Pelicans, Rondo holds down the worst spot:
With Cousins: -7.3
? ?
??
??
Last year with Lakers:
Worst and 5th worst slots:
With KCP -10.0
With Kuzma -6.3

Rondo’s overall on-off those years?
Mavs -6.7
Kings -2.1
Bulls -4.5
Pelicans -2.6
Lakers -9.4

There’s ample evidence that Rondo hasn’t been a positive contributor to winning since the Celtics big 3 broke up. I don’t know that there’s any other player in the league living more off reputation than him right now. He’s a bad basketball player.


Nice research, yeah it's been a long time since he was himself, I would say since he did that ACL injury in 2012-13. He never got his impact back. He's still a smart guy and worthwhile having on the bench.

Yes, I appreciate the research too and yes Rondo indeed wasn't good in most advanced stats too esp defense but I just have to wonder why he just mentioned ONE player with the Pelicans, Demarcus Cousins, what about AD, Jrue, Mirotic? He mentioned Bellinelli who played 24 mins, what about other players like Gay, Casspi?
It would make sense too that he won't work well with other ball dominant players like Wade and Collison and I also read from Haberstroh that he has the worst combo stats +/- with Lebron.
Still, I can't ignore what he did with the Pelicans,esp when he helped them sweep the favored Blazers with his 13 assiss, 7.5 rebs/game. He leaves, they get Randle and the team struggles and just win 33 games actually got worst in ORTG and DRTG FROM 14th to 23rd.
2 years ago, Rondo ranked 38th in DRPM ahead of Kemba, Lillard, Hill, Augustin, Dunn etc, his ORPM, ranked 47 ahead of Beverley, Lavine, Rose, Parker etc.
Again I don't like Rondo to play heavy minutes esp next to Lebron but I just want to keep an eye on what he can do with the bench.
There was a female reporter at the ESPY's who questioned Rondo's motivation to play, stating that his shoe endorsement is forcing him to play so he can paid a lot of money.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#23 » by SweetTouch » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:38 pm

He will get injured
Stop being so disrespectful.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#24 » by IlCapitano » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:04 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:There was a female reporter at the ESPY's who questioned Rondo's motivation to play, stating that his shoe endorsement is forcing him to play so he can paid a lot of money.

Umm what? When was this? Do you have a link or anything?
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#25 » by Pythagoras » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:04 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:
Your research was not only on point it was overly generous to Rondo.

Going all the way back to 2014

The Mavericks top 20 2-man rotations for min played, Rondo holds the only 3 net negative ratings on that list:
With Chandler -3.2
With Ellis -2.8
With Parsons -1.7

The next year with the Kings:

Rondo occupies the worst spot, then 6th and 7th worst spots on their top 20 2-man for mins, and they’re all negative:
With Belinelli -9.5
With Cayley-Stein -4.0
With Collison -3.6

The next year with the Bulls:
On their top 20, Rondo has second and fourth worst spots:
With Wade -5.6
With Gibson -2.4

Next year with Pelicans, Rondo holds down the worst spot:
With Cousins: -7.3
? ?
??
??
Last year with Lakers:
Worst and 5th worst slots:
With KCP -10.0
With Kuzma -6.3

Rondo’s overall on-off those years?
Mavs -6.7
Kings -2.1
Bulls -4.5
Pelicans -2.6
Lakers -9.4

There’s ample evidence that Rondo hasn’t been a positive contributor to winning since the Celtics big 3 broke up. I don’t know that there’s any other player in the league living more off reputation than him right now. He’s a bad basketball player.


Nice research, yeah it's been a long time since he was himself, I would say since he did that ACL injury in 2012-13. He never got his impact back. He's still a smart guy and worthwhile having on the bench.

Yes, I appreciate the research too and yes Rondo indeed wasn't good in most advanced stats too esp defense but I just have to wonder why he just mentioned ONE player with the Pelicans, Demarcus Cousins, what about AD, Jrue, Mirotic? He mentioned Bellinelli who played 24 mins, what about other players like Gay, Casspi?
It would make sense too that he won't work well with other ball dominant players like Wade and Collison and I also read from Haberstroh that he has the worst combo stats +/- with Lebron.
Still, I can't ignore what he did with the Pelicans,esp when he helped them sweep the favored Blazers with his 13 assiss, 7.5 rebs/game. He leaves, they get Randle and the team struggles and just win 33 games actually got worst in ORTG and DRTG FROM 14th to 23rd.
2 years ago, Rondo ranked 38th in DRPM ahead of Kemba, Lillard, Hill, Augustin, Dunn etc, his ORPM, ranked 47 ahead of Beverley, Lavine, Rose, Parker etc.
Again I don't like Rondo to play heavy minutes esp next to Lebron but I just want to keep an eye on what he can do with the bench.
There was a female reporter at the ESPY's who questioned Rondo's motivation to play, stating that his shoe endorsement is forcing him to play so he can paid a lot of money.


I limited my research to only the top 20 minutes played 2 man duos on each team. Belinelli’s name appeared with Rondo on one such of those lists. Overall Rondo’s name appears on those kinds of lists, going back to the Mavs, 22 times, and only in 9 instances does he have a positive rating. So there are indeed specific instances where Rondo has some “not god awful” two-man ratings. The problem is, you could likely but almost ANY guard in those situations and they’d post a positive rating. I also included his overall on-off numbers each year, and they were all negative. Rondo also has posted a negative RPM every year but one over the last 5 years.

2014: -3.21
2015: 0.30
2016: -1.84
2017: -0.97
2018: -3.56

This is why I say, Rondo should be at the bottom of the pecking order of our guard rotation, unless he proves himself. If that’s how the coaches use him, I’m good.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#26 » by machine18 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:31 pm

The first two minutes of this LFR video is my favorite 'eye test' for Rondo. And it doesn't even have to break down the atrocious fit on offense.

And for the false narratives out there, this wasn't a 'garbage game' when everyone was hurt and the season was over. The Lakers record was 29-29 before the game in the video, playing a Pelicans team on the second night of a back-to-back and sitting Anthony Davis.

And he wasn't still coming back from injury, this was his 11th game back from injury and 2nd game after the All-Star break for added rest. So more than a month of playing games.



Sadly, as the rest of the video shows, there are a lot of glaring weaknesses defensively for a lot of the guys still on the roster as well.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#27 » by TKainZero » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:59 pm

IlCapitano wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:There was a female reporter at the ESPY's who questioned Rondo's motivation to play, stating that his shoe endorsement is forcing him to play so he can paid a lot of money.

Umm what? When was this? Do you have a link or anything?


I know that is the case with Derek Rose. He is getting 20 mil a year from some show company. Didn’t know about rondo
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#28 » by stan francisco » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:54 am

Why some of us still see value in him:

2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso24, Bradley4, Rondo3, Norvell1
SG: Green24, Pope12, Bradley8, Daniels3, Cook1
SF: Kuzma24, James16, THT6, Caroline2
PF: Davis32, Kuzma12, Dudley3, Cacok1
C: Cousins24, McGee20, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#29 » by iamworthy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:35 pm

Is playoff rondo bad as well? I'll have to look up his numbers when I have time.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#30 » by tamaraw08 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:47 pm

machine18 wrote:The first two minutes of this LFR video is my favorite 'eye test' for Rondo. And it doesn't even have to break down the atrocious fit on offense.

And for the false narratives out there, this wasn't a 'garbage game' when everyone was hurt and the season was over. The Lakers record was 29-29 before the game in the video, playing a Pelicans team on the second night of a back-to-back and sitting Anthony Davis.

And he wasn't still coming back from injury, this was his 11th game back from injury and 2nd game after the All-Star break for added rest. So more than a month of playing games.



Sadly, as the rest of the video shows, there are a lot of glaring weaknesses defensively for a lot of the guys still on the roster as well.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#31 » by tamaraw08 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:52 pm

stan francisco wrote:Why some of us still see value in him:



This is what impressed me too 2 years ago
[url][/url]
It doesn't show of course the weaknesses of Rondo esp on the defensive end.
[url][/url]
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#32 » by stan francisco » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:02 pm

His +/- stats in Nov-Dec confirm eye test still works, at +4.5 and +2.9.

That’s the only normal stretch he had last season.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso24, Bradley4, Rondo3, Norvell1
SG: Green24, Pope12, Bradley8, Daniels3, Cook1
SF: Kuzma24, James16, THT6, Caroline2
PF: Davis32, Kuzma12, Dudley3, Cacok1
C: Cousins24, McGee20, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#33 » by zimpy27 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:36 pm

stan francisco wrote:His +/- stats in Nov-Dec confirm eye test still works, at +4.5 and +2.9.

That’s the only normal stretch he had last season.

He played 6 games in November and 3 games in December.

But interestingly all of them were off the bench. Whereas most of the rest of the year he started. Maybe that's the link to his success.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#34 » by tamaraw08 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:23 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:His +/- stats in Nov-Dec confirm eye test still works, at +4.5 and +2.9.

That’s the only normal stretch he had last season.

He played 6 games in November and 3 games in December.

But interestingly all of them were off the bench. Whereas most of the rest of the year he started. Maybe that's the link to his success.


Stats and no stats I think he shouldn't play Next to Lebron, bec he can't shoot and he loves to dominate the ball. Haberstroh had an advanced stat that they had a combined -54.
Per basketball ref, 602 mins, -3.7 pts the ONLY combo with Lebron with the ONLY negative stat aside from Bullock who played 360 mins with a -1.7.
Btw Caruso has a pretty high +11.2 next to Lebron but just for 146 minutes https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/carusal01/lineups/2019
however Rondo had a + 3.5 pts regular and +3.3 playoffs next to AD,
His highest was playing for a good shooter like Mirotic, so if Dudley or Kuz hit those 3's from the bench, then I think he would be effective with the 2nd unit.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#35 » by Karmaloop » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:11 am

Slava wrote:This is exactly why I considered Rondo a litmus test for this regime. If they go by advanced stats and impact, he has no business being on an NBA roster, yet they brought him back, albeit on the minimum. Every minute he's on the court is less than optimal.


Just playing devil's advocate, who runs the offense when LeBron is off the court? I think we'd be all foolish to think that anyone but LeBron is running the offense. But when he's resting for that ~12 MPG, who is running the offense? It's either Alex Caruso, Quinn Cook, or Rajon Rondo. Not ideal.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#36 » by zimpy27 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:44 am

[vine][/vine]
Karmaloop wrote:
Slava wrote:This is exactly why I considered Rondo a litmus test for this regime. If they go by advanced stats and impact, he has no business being on an NBA roster, yet they brought him back, albeit on the minimum. Every minute he's on the court is less than optimal.


Just playing devil's advocate, who runs the offense when LeBron is off the court? I think we'd be all foolish to think that anyone but LeBron is running the offense. But when he's resting for that ~12 MPG, who is running the offense? It's either Alex Caruso, Quinn Cook, or Rajon Rondo. Not ideal.


The Lakers have 2 combo guards in Caruso and Bradley.
I think them playing together off the bench could be cool. Plus Cousins off the bench can also have a playmaking role.

Instead of 1 PG running the show you have 3 players that could run it from different spots and actions. Kuzma would likely cut to get most of the scoring done.

Team without LeBron/AD:
Caruso, Bradley, KCP, Kuzma, Cousins

If that lineup gets some nice cohesion going tlit would be excellent. 20 minutes per game in RS, 10 minutes per game in playoffs.

If it doesn't work then you probably have to stagger AD and Bron.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#37 » by tamaraw08 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:21 am

zimpy27 wrote:[vine][/vine]
Karmaloop wrote:
Slava wrote:This is exactly why I considered Rondo a litmus test for this regime. If they go by advanced stats and impact, he has no business being on an NBA roster, yet they brought him back, albeit on the minimum. Every minute he's on the court is less than optimal.


Just playing devil's advocate, who runs the offense when LeBron is off the court? I think we'd be all foolish to think that anyone but LeBron is running the offense. But when he's resting for that ~12 MPG, who is running the offense? It's either Alex Caruso, Quinn Cook, or Rajon Rondo. Not ideal.


The Lakers have 2 combo guards in Caruso and Bradley.
I think them playing together off the bench could be cool. Plus Cousins off the bench can also have a playmaking role.

Instead of 1 PG running the show you have 3 players that could run it from different spots and actions. Kuzma would likely cut to get most of the scoring done.

Team without LeBron/AD:
Caruso, Bradley, KCP, Kuzma, Cousins

If that lineup gets some nice cohesion going tlit would be excellent. 20 minutes per game in RS, 10 minutes per game in playoffs.

If it doesn't work then you probably have to stagger AD and Bron.

It’s a pretty good concept, I am hoping Vogel would assign a specific coach to handle the bench, come up with the best sets with multiple options and have them practice them extensively for most of the training camp.
Another option is to sit AD at the 7th minute mark and let him team up with DMC and other vets like KCP and Kuzma. DMC showed a lot of promise passing from the high post too. Phil Jax would rarely sit both of his stars at the same time to prevent a drop off.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#38 » by lazybatman » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:08 am

Bron's probably gonna need like 2 of Green, Bradley, KCP or Caruso whenever he's playing, mostly for primary coverage on the opposition PG / SGs.. also, he likes to take plays off every now and then, where he wants someone else to create offense. Caruso is the only primary ball handler amongst those guys. The rest of them have never been in that role, and let's not try to reinvent the wheel.

Boogie and AD can create for themselves, and a few kick outs / slasher assists, but that's about it.

Rondo is only the 3rd primary ball handler on the team, and since he can't play with Lebron, guess whose gonna get all of Lebron's bench minutes. Having seen the numbers and some of his defense on video, I'm not too high on him. Can only hope a more motivated, injury free version of him shows up this season.

Tyus Jones sounds pretty sweet right now. He's gone for 9 mil an year deal now.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#39 » by Pythagoras » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:45 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:His +/- stats in Nov-Dec confirm eye test still works, at +4.5 and +2.9.

That’s the only normal stretch he had last season.

He played 6 games in November and 3 games in December.

But interestingly all of them were off the bench. Whereas most of the rest of the year he started. Maybe that's the link to his success.


Stats and no stats I think he shouldn't play Next to Lebron, bec he can't shoot and he loves to dominate the ball. Haberstroh had an advanced stat that they had a combined -54.
Per basketball ref, 602 mins, -3.7 pts the ONLY combo with Lebron with the ONLY negative stat aside from Bullock who played 360 mins with a -1.7.
Btw Caruso has a pretty high +11.2 next to Lebron but just for 146 minutes https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/carusal01/lineups/2019
however Rondo had a + 3.5 pts regular and +3.3 playoffs next to AD,
His highest was playing for a good shooter like Mirotic, so if Dudley or Kuz hit those 3's from the bench, then I think he would be effective with the 2nd unit.


I mean, part of my problem with Rondo, is how many minutes he’s going to play. He had a net negative rating with 3 of our 5 best players the last season he was on the floor with them: Lebron, Kuzma, and Cousins. His overall numbers have been negative in each season for five consecutive seasons. In those seasons, he’s had a multitude of opportunities with a multitude of different casts and hasn’t been able to have a positive impact. He most certainly doesn’t deserve 20 min/night but how many can he realistically get? In order to get him even 15 minutes a night, he’s going to have to push a more deserving player out of the rotation: KCP, Bradley, Cook, Daniels, or Caruso. People are enamored with his name and ignoring his consistently negative impact to justify him getting minutes.
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Re: Rondo's 2-man +/- with current roster 

Post#40 » by stan francisco » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:59 pm

Pythagoras wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:He played 6 games in November and 3 games in December.

But interestingly all of them were off the bench. Whereas most of the rest of the year he started. Maybe that's the link to his success.


Stats and no stats I think he shouldn't play Next to Lebron, bec he can't shoot and he loves to dominate the ball. Haberstroh had an advanced stat that they had a combined -54.
Per basketball ref, 602 mins, -3.7 pts the ONLY combo with Lebron with the ONLY negative stat aside from Bullock who played 360 mins with a -1.7.
Btw Caruso has a pretty high +11.2 next to Lebron but just for 146 minutes https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/carusal01/lineups/2019
however Rondo had a + 3.5 pts regular and +3.3 playoffs next to AD,
His highest was playing for a good shooter like Mirotic, so if Dudley or Kuz hit those 3's from the bench, then I think he would be effective with the 2nd unit.


I mean, part of my problem with Rondo, is how many minutes he’s going to play. He had a net negative rating with 3 of our 5 best players the last season he was on the floor with them: Lebron, Kuzma, and Cousins. His overall numbers have been negative in each season for five consecutive seasons. In those seasons, he’s had a multitude of opportunities with a multitude of different casts and hasn’t been able to have a positive impact. He most certainly doesn’t deserve 20 min/night but how many can he realistically get? In order to get him even 15 minutes a night, he’s going to have to push a more deserving player out of the rotation: KCP, Bradley, Cook, Daniels, or Caruso. People are enamored with his name and ignoring his consistently negative impact to justify him getting minutes.


Caruso 24 minutes
Bradley 12 minutes
Cook 6 minutes
Rondo 6 minutes

Rondo’s strategic veteran know-how is worth his paycheck even if he doesn’t play a minute.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso24, Bradley4, Rondo3, Norvell1
SG: Green24, Pope12, Bradley8, Daniels3, Cook1
SF: Kuzma24, James16, THT6, Caroline2
PF: Davis32, Kuzma12, Dudley3, Cacok1
C: Cousins24, McGee20, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2

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