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who should our starting PG be?

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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#21 » by tamaraw08 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:59 pm

stan francisco wrote:How much is Kuz making this season? Is he arguably our third best player? I say he will be.

If we’re trading him while on his rookie deal it’d better be for a third star caliber promising young player of Kuzma’s level or better. Tatum? Good luck.

Patty Mills? Hell no.

Kuzma will make a whopping 1.9 mil this coming season. He averaged just under 19 pts 5.5 rebs for 1.7 last year.

He's the 323rd best-paid NBA player this year.
He was the 364th best-paid NBA player last year.
He's the 139th best-paid forward this year.
He was the 148th best-paid forward last year.
And there's a fair chance he will be even better this year. To a point I understand that there's a clamor to trade him away bec of some question marks about the PG situation. I like Caruso and he showed promise but he only has a career 62 games mostly garbage time. Rondo can pass and set up the offense but is a horrible combo with Lebron with his bad defense and awful touch. Cook and Daniels can definitely shoot but are also bad defenders and passers. Bradley played good defense under a well structured Boston team but struggled big time with the Clips. Most attribute it to injury, we'll see.
This team only need ONE, hopefully 2 of these players to play good defense and hit their 3pt shots this coming season. If I have to bet, I'm thinking Caruso. Bradley has a fair chance. Vogel and his staff must find ways to help these guys succeed with great nurturing, scouting etc.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#22 » by Ball so hard » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:56 pm

One Love wrote:I think the starter will be Avery... Rondo will play with the 2nd unit, Cook is young & Caruso seems set on coming off the bench... Avery got the biggest contract & played over 65% of his minutes at PG in his career (moved to SG when Irving came to Boston)...

Avery plays defense, shoots the 3 well and is a veteran... He is a little short (6’2”) but with Green at 6’5” & LBJ at 6’8”, we match up well on the perimeter, plus McGee & AD will protect the rim...

In terms of ending games, LBJ runs the show with AD in the middle, Kuzz at the 4, Green at the 2 & the hottest hand (Avery, Caruso, Cook, etc...) on the floor...

Lakeshow Baby...


I think you're placing way too much value on the Bradley from Boston days. Bradley's position estimate at the PG position last season was about 1 percent; it was also around 7 percent while playing for the Pistons. Not sure where you're getting your 65% from. He simply hasn't played a lot of PG since his early days in Boston. He was also terrible at defending PGs last season... I posted an analysis in the Cousins thread.

KCP should be our starting PG, at least I hope.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#23 » by tamaraw08 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:46 pm

Ball so hard wrote:
One Love wrote:I think the starter will be Avery... Rondo will play with the 2nd unit, Cook is young & Caruso seems set on coming off the bench... Avery got the biggest contract & played over 65% of his minutes at PG in his career (moved to SG when Irving came to Boston)...

Avery plays defense, shoots the 3 well and is a veteran... He is a little short (6’2”) but with Green at 6’5” & LBJ at 6’8”, we match up well on the perimeter, plus McGee & AD will protect the rim...

In terms of ending games, LBJ runs the show with AD in the middle, Kuzz at the 4, Green at the 2 & the hottest hand (Avery, Caruso, Cook, etc...) on the floor...

Lakeshow Baby...


I think you're placing way too much value on the Bradley from Boston days. Bradley's position estimate at the PG position last season was about 1 percent; it was also around 7 percent while playing for the Pistons. Not sure where you're getting your 65% from. He simply hasn't played a lot of PG since his early days in Boston. He was also terrible at defending PGs last season... I posted an analysis in the Cousins thread.

KCP should be our starting PG, at least I hope.


Do you mind telling me what is your rationale in thinking why KCP should be the Lakers starting PG?
I think it's safe to assume Lebron would dominate the ball and he's also stating the AD should be the main focal point of offense.
https://www.slamonline.com/nba/lebron-james-told-lakers-to-make-anthony-davis-focal-point-of-the-offense/
A year ago, Anthony Davis looked in the mirror and saw a 6-foot-3 guard in search of a college scholarship. At the time, Davis owned a common name and a common basketball frame. He was watching guards to pick up tricks to use on the floor and hoped he could play in college. It would be months until Cleveland State would come see him play and make him a first scholarship offer.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/news/story?id=5894839
So for me, this team doesn't need a traditional ball dominant PG who is trying to collect as many assists as possible. KCP is also not that type of player but he is also 6-5 who had trouble defending slower SGs, ranked very low with basketball ref DRTG AND DBPM etc. also ranked 96th among 108 SGs in DRPM and a negative score in that ESPN advanced stat the past 3 years. I just have a very hard time imagining him able to keep in step with much quicker PG's like Steph, Lillard, Murray, Fox Conley etc etc.
Lakers also need that guy to shoot from the 3pt area to punish defense in clogging the lanes. KCP hit his average of 34.7%, which was 10th worst among SGs, https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/shooting-guard/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#24 » by Ball so hard » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:24 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
One Love wrote:I think the starter will be Avery... Rondo will play with the 2nd unit, Cook is young & Caruso seems set on coming off the bench... Avery got the biggest contract & played over 65% of his minutes at PG in his career (moved to SG when Irving came to Boston)...

Avery plays defense, shoots the 3 well and is a veteran... He is a little short (6’2”) but with Green at 6’5” & LBJ at 6’8”, we match up well on the perimeter, plus McGee & AD will protect the rim...

In terms of ending games, LBJ runs the show with AD in the middle, Kuzz at the 4, Green at the 2 & the hottest hand (Avery, Caruso, Cook, etc...) on the floor...

Lakeshow Baby...


I think you're placing way too much value on the Bradley from Boston days. Bradley's position estimate at the PG position last season was about 1 percent; it was also around 7 percent while playing for the Pistons. Not sure where you're getting your 65% from. He simply hasn't played a lot of PG since his early days in Boston. He was also terrible at defending PGs last season... I posted an analysis in the Cousins thread.

KCP should be our starting PG, at least I hope.


Do you mind telling me what is your rationale in thinking why KCP should be the Lakers starting PG?
I think it's safe to assume Lebron would dominate the ball and he's also stating the AD should be the main focal point of offense.
https://www.slamonline.com/nba/lebron-james-told-lakers-to-make-anthony-davis-focal-point-of-the-offense/
A year ago, Anthony Davis looked in the mirror and saw a 6-foot-3 guard in search of a college scholarship. At the time, Davis owned a common name and a common basketball frame. He was watching guards to pick up tricks to use on the floor and hoped he could play in college. It would be months until Cleveland State would come see him play and make him a first scholarship offer.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/news/story?id=5894839
So for me, this team doesn't need a traditional ball dominant PG who is trying to collect as many assists as possible. KCP is also not that type of player but he is also 6-5 who had trouble defending slower SGs, ranked very low with basketball ref DRTG AND DBPM etc. also ranked 96th among 108 SGs in DRPM and a negative score in that ESPN advanced stat the past 3 years. I just have a very hard time imagining him able to keep in step with much quicker PG's like Steph, Lillard, Murray, Fox Conley etc etc.
Lakers also need that guy to shoot from the 3pt area to punish defense in clogging the lanes. KCP hit his average of 34.7%, which was 10th worst among SGs, https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/shooting-guard/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc.


Based on the Player Points Difference metric, KCP is by far our best defender against PGs. Caruso is also pretty solid against PGs. Bradley is a huge negative against PGs. I haven't analyzed ever single player on our roster, but I doubt i'll find another + PG defender on our roster. I posted an analysis in the Cousins thread. I'm not looking for much from KCP on offense; i'm simply hoping he can play solid defense against PGs and knock down a 3 pointer on occasion. I don't even want him to dribble as he's actually quite inept at doing so. I agree we do not necessarily need a traditional ball dominant PG, but given our roster i'm not sure there's a better alternative. The metrics you mentioned are very good, but they're somewhat broad in nature, i.e they don't necessarily drill down by position. Defense in general is pretty difficult to rate in a stat. However, If you've watched KCP you can tell he's most effective when guarding PGs.

Who would you like to start at the PG instead? If your answer is Caruso, I can live with that.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#25 » by zimpy27 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:52 pm

Ball so hard wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
I think you're placing way too much value on the Bradley from Boston days. Bradley's position estimate at the PG position last season was about 1 percent; it was also around 7 percent while playing for the Pistons. Not sure where you're getting your 65% from. He simply hasn't played a lot of PG since his early days in Boston. He was also terrible at defending PGs last season... I posted an analysis in the Cousins thread.

KCP should be our starting PG, at least I hope.


Do you mind telling me what is your rationale in thinking why KCP should be the Lakers starting PG?
I think it's safe to assume Lebron would dominate the ball and he's also stating the AD should be the main focal point of offense.
https://www.slamonline.com/nba/lebron-james-told-lakers-to-make-anthony-davis-focal-point-of-the-offense/
A year ago, Anthony Davis looked in the mirror and saw a 6-foot-3 guard in search of a college scholarship. At the time, Davis owned a common name and a common basketball frame. He was watching guards to pick up tricks to use on the floor and hoped he could play in college. It would be months until Cleveland State would come see him play and make him a first scholarship offer.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/news/story?id=5894839
So for me, this team doesn't need a traditional ball dominant PG who is trying to collect as many assists as possible. KCP is also not that type of player but he is also 6-5 who had trouble defending slower SGs, ranked very low with basketball ref DRTG AND DBPM etc. also ranked 96th among 108 SGs in DRPM and a negative score in that ESPN advanced stat the past 3 years. I just have a very hard time imagining him able to keep in step with much quicker PG's like Steph, Lillard, Murray, Fox Conley etc etc.
Lakers also need that guy to shoot from the 3pt area to punish defense in clogging the lanes. KCP hit his average of 34.7%, which was 10th worst among SGs, https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/shooting-guard/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc.


Based on the Player Points Difference metric, KCP is by far our best defender against PGs. Caruso is also pretty solid against PGs. Bradley is a huge negative against PGs. I haven't analyzed ever single player on our roster, but I doubt i'll find another + PG defender on our roster. I posted an analysis in the Cousins thread. I'm not looking for much from KCP on offense; i'm simply hoping he can play solid defense against PGs and knock down a 3 pointer on occasion. I don't even want him to dribble as he's actually quite inept at doing so. I agree we do not necessarily need a traditional ball dominant PG, but given our roster i'm not sure there's a better alternative. The metrics you mentioned are very good, but they're somewhat broad in nature, i.e they don't necessarily drill down by position. Defense in general is pretty difficult to rate in a stat. However, If you've watched KCP you can tell he's most effective when guarding PGs.

Who would you like to start at the PG instead? If your answer is Caruso, I can live with that.


Yeah KCP should start and he is paid appropriately. I think he probably will. I think it's been overlooked how valuable it is that he can defend PGs. He will be the smallest player on the court at 6'5 for the Lakers and he will have to be defended by the opponent PG.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#26 » by stan francisco » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:13 pm

LeBron starts at point. Caruso, Bradley, Rondo, Norvell.

The shooting guard next to LeBron will cover the PG.

See signature below.

Trade KCP with a couple of our no-d guards for Iggy. KCP is unfocused and unreliable, makes too many mental mistakes.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#27 » by tamaraw08 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:16 pm

stan francisco wrote:LeBron starts at point. Caruso, Bradley, Rondo, Norvell.

The shooting guard next to LeBron will cover the PG.

See signature below.

Trade KCP with a couple of our no-d guards for Iggy. KCP is unfocused and unreliable, makes too many mental mistakes.


For just the Laker team last year, he was outside the top 9 in defensive rating and defensive plus and minus from basketballreference.
ESPN'S own Defensive Real Plus and Minus for SGs, he is ranked 96th among 107 Shooting guards.http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2
He pretty much hit his 3pt career % of 34.7% and only 9 shooting guards shot worst than him for the entire league.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/shooting-guard/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc

I had a discussion with another poster jkokkotos about him and he eventually agreed with me after he found this link
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
But hey, you can pretty much find a specific stat metric to make him look decent, eventually the truth will come out.
If he turns it around, Lakers greatly benefit and I would be ecstatic for this team, bec I don't see any other team trading for this guy esp the amount they are paying him.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#28 » by stan francisco » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:20 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:LeBron starts at point. Caruso, Bradley, Rondo, Norvell.

The shooting guard next to LeBron will cover the PG.

See signature below.

Trade KCP with a couple of our no-d guards for Iggy. KCP is unfocused and unreliable, makes too many mental mistakes.


For just the Laker team last year, he was outside the top 9 in defensive rating and defensive plus and minus from basketballreference.
ESPN'S own Defensive Real Plus and Minus for SGs, he is ranked 96th among 107 Shooting guards.http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2
He pretty much hit his 3pt career % of 34.7% and only 9 shooting guards shot worst than him for the entire league.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/shooting-guard/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc

I had a discussion with another poster jkokkotos about him and he eventually agreed with me after he found this link
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
But hey, you can pretty much find a specific stat metric to make him look decent, eventually the truth will come out.
If he turns it around, Lakers greatly benefit and I would be ecstatic for this team, bec I don't see any other team trading for this guy esp the amount they are paying him.


See bold. If he turns it around. Seeing is believing. He’s pesky but has shown little to no consistency. 34.7% doesn’t cut it for a shooting guard.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#29 » by zimpy27 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:58 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:LeBron starts at point. Caruso, Bradley, Rondo, Norvell.

The shooting guard next to LeBron will cover the PG.

See signature below.

Trade KCP with a couple of our no-d guards for Iggy. KCP is unfocused and unreliable, makes too many mental mistakes.


For just the Laker team last year, he was outside the top 9 in defensive rating and defensive plus and minus from basketballreference.
ESPN'S own Defensive Real Plus and Minus for SGs, he is ranked 96th among 107 Shooting guards.http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2
He pretty much hit his 3pt career % of 34.7% and only 9 shooting guards shot worst than him for the entire league.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/shooting-guard/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc

I had a discussion with another poster jkokkotos about him and he eventually agreed with me after he found this link
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
But hey, you can pretty much find a specific stat metric to make him look decent, eventually the truth will come out.
If he turns it around, Lakers greatly benefit and I would be ecstatic for this team, bec I don't see any other team trading for this guy esp the amount they are paying him.


It's interesting because the point in which KCP dropped was in Detroit when Reggie was replaced by Ish due to injury and Pistons went with Harris as the SF over the smaller Stanley. The PG got smaller and the SF got bigger essentially leaving KCP on an island at SG, with minimal switching capability. It was 6'3, 6'5, 6'7 and went to 6'0, 6'5, 6'9.

Lakers has not been ideal, poor defensive Cs and youth. KCP is a role player, not a team leader.

I think KCP will play well with Caruso and Green.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#30 » by what would jack bauer do? » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:39 pm

Current roster, it should be without a doubt Caruso. He's primed to be a Pat Beverly level defender (without all the antics) and he's got a ton of potential on offense.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#31 » by tamaraw08 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:35 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:LeBron starts at point. Caruso, Bradley, Rondo, Norvell.

The shooting guard next to LeBron will cover the PG.

See signature below.

Trade KCP with a couple of our no-d guards for Iggy. KCP is unfocused and unreliable, makes too many mental mistakes.


For just the Laker team last year, he was outside the top 9 in defensive rating and defensive plus and minus from basketballreference.
ESPN'S own Defensive Real Plus and Minus for SGs, he is ranked 96th among 107 Shooting guards.http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2
He pretty much hit his 3pt career % of 34.7% and only 9 shooting guards shot worst than him for the entire league.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/shooting-guard/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc

I had a discussion with another poster jkokkotos about him and he eventually agreed with me after he found this link
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
But hey, you can pretty much find a specific stat metric to make him look decent, eventually the truth will come out.
If he turns it around, Lakers greatly benefit and I would be ecstatic for this team, bec I don't see any other team trading for this guy esp the amount they are paying him.


It's interesting because the point in which KCP dropped was in Detroit when Reggie was replaced by Ish due to injury and Pistons went with Harris as the SF over the smaller Stanley. The PG got smaller and the SF got bigger essentially leaving KCP on an island at SG, with minimal switching capability. It was 6'3, 6'5, 6'7 and went to 6'0, 6'5, 6'9.

Lakers has not been ideal, poor defensive Cs and youth. KCP is a role player, not a team leader.

I think KCP will play well with Caruso and Green.

so you're saying he teamed up with a shorter Ish Smith and it affected him to be a bad defender he then moved to LA,teamed up with a 6-6 PG Lonzo Ball (8th in DRPM among PGs and 6-5 Caruso and Lebron 9th in DRPM among SF and he's still bad? :o btw Lakers ranked 13th best in DRTG in the league last year.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#32 » by zimpy27 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:17 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
For just the Laker team last year, he was outside the top 9 in defensive rating and defensive plus and minus from basketballreference.
ESPN'S own Defensive Real Plus and Minus for SGs, he is ranked 96th among 107 Shooting guards.http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2
He pretty much hit his 3pt career % of 34.7% and only 9 shooting guards shot worst than him for the entire league.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/shooting-guard/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc

I had a discussion with another poster jkokkotos about him and he eventually agreed with me after he found this link
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
But hey, you can pretty much find a specific stat metric to make him look decent, eventually the truth will come out.
If he turns it around, Lakers greatly benefit and I would be ecstatic for this team, bec I don't see any other team trading for this guy esp the amount they are paying him.


It's interesting because the point in which KCP dropped was in Detroit when Reggie was replaced by Ish due to injury and Pistons went with Harris as the SF over the smaller Stanley. The PG got smaller and the SF got bigger essentially leaving KCP on an island at SG, with minimal switching capability. It was 6'3, 6'5, 6'7 and went to 6'0, 6'5, 6'9.

Lakers has not been ideal, poor defensive Cs and youth. KCP is a role player, not a team leader.

I think KCP will play well with Caruso and Green.

so you're saying he teamed up with a shorter Ish Smith and it affected him to be a bad defender he then moved to LA,teamed up with a 6-6 PG Lonzo Ball (8th in DRPM among PGs and 6-5 Caruso and Lebron 9th in DRPM among SF and he's still bad? :o btw Lakers ranked 13th best in DRTG in the league last year.


Pistons had a defensive C, I was talking about why he dropped off for one year as a piston. When he came to Lakers the defensive core was not good and the team was young. He worked well with Lonzo and Hart. Last season was his bad season and I think it had something to do with poor rotations.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#33 » by stan francisco » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:11 am

If KCP plays team defense consistently (and that’s a big if), and shoots 38% from three (that’s another big if), then keep him.

If he’s shooting worse than Green, Caruso, Daniels, Cook, AND plays inconsistent defense (this is the pretty much the current report card of KCP), then trade him.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#34 » by Ball so hard » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:51 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:LeBron starts at point. Caruso, Bradley, Rondo, Norvell.

The shooting guard next to LeBron will cover the PG.

See signature below.

Trade KCP with a couple of our no-d guards for Iggy. KCP is unfocused and unreliable, makes too many mental mistakes.


For just the Laker team last year, he was outside the top 9 in defensive rating and defensive plus and minus from basketballreference.
ESPN'S own Defensive Real Plus and Minus for SGs, he is ranked 96th among 107 Shooting guards.http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2
He pretty much hit his 3pt career % of 34.7% and only 9 shooting guards shot worst than him for the entire league.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/shooting-guard/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc

I had a discussion with another poster jkokkotos about him and he eventually agreed with me after he found this link
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
But hey, you can pretty much find a specific stat metric to make him look decent, eventually the truth will come out.
If he turns it around, Lakers greatly benefit and I would be ecstatic for this team, bec I don't see any other team trading for this guy esp the amount they are paying him.


It's a very flawed approach to use DRPM to rank a player (especially non Bigs) defensively. Guys like Josh Hart (ranked 3rd) and Korver (ranked 57th) are well above KCP. KCP is far from some defensive stud, but it's preposterous to even think those guys defensive impact are that much better than KCP's. Good DRPM does not necessarily mean good defender, especially non Bigs like I mentioned. DRPM also favors defensive rebounds, which obviously hurts a guy like KCP.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#35 » by tamaraw08 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:38 pm

Ball so hard wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:LeBron starts at point. Caruso, Bradley, Rondo, Norvell.

The shooting guard next to LeBron will cover the PG.

See signature below.

Trade KCP with a couple of our no-d guards for Iggy. KCP is unfocused and unreliable, makes too many mental mistakes.


For just the Laker team last year, he was outside the top 9 in defensive rating and defensive plus and minus from basketballreference.
ESPN'S own Defensive Real Plus and Minus for SGs, he is ranked 96th among 107 Shooting guards.http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2
He pretty much hit his 3pt career % of 34.7% and only 9 shooting guards shot worst than him for the entire league.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/shooting-guard/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc

I had a discussion with another poster jkokkotos about him and he eventually agreed with me after he found this link
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
But hey, you can pretty much find a specific stat metric to make him look decent, eventually the truth will come out.
If he turns it around, Lakers greatly benefit and I would be ecstatic for this team, bec I don't see any other team trading for this guy esp the amount they are paying him.


It's a very flawed approach to use DRPM to rank a player (especially non Bigs) defensively. Guys like Josh Hart (ranked 3rd) and Korver (ranked 57th) are well above KCP. KCP is far from some defensive stud, but it's preposterous to even think those guys defensive impact are that much better than KCP's. Good DRPM does not necessarily mean good defender, especially non Bigs like I mentioned. DRPM also favors defensive rebounds, which obviously hurts a guy like KCP.

I understand 1 or 2 advanced stats can be misleading but 4 from a total of 3 different sites?
Josh Hart when on the floor, opponents shot 49% with a ORTG of 109.8 and when he's off the court, they shot 53% with ORTG OF 113. But ok for the sake of argument KCP is not that bad, but if he hit his CAREER average of 34.5% FOR 470 games, can you honestly tell me this is really enough to open the defense? He actually upped it to 34.7% last season and yet only 9 SGs shot worst than him.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#36 » by Ball so hard » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:19 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
For just the Laker team last year, he was outside the top 9 in defensive rating and defensive plus and minus from basketballreference.
ESPN'S own Defensive Real Plus and Minus for SGs, he is ranked 96th among 107 Shooting guards.http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2
He pretty much hit his 3pt career % of 34.7% and only 9 shooting guards shot worst than him for the entire league.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/position/shooting-guard/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc

I had a discussion with another poster jkokkotos about him and he eventually agreed with me after he found this link
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/547/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
But hey, you can pretty much find a specific stat metric to make him look decent, eventually the truth will come out.
If he turns it around, Lakers greatly benefit and I would be ecstatic for this team, bec I don't see any other team trading for this guy esp the amount they are paying him.


It's a very flawed approach to use DRPM to rank a player (especially non Bigs) defensively. Guys like Josh Hart (ranked 3rd) and Korver (ranked 57th) are well above KCP. KCP is far from some defensive stud, but it's preposterous to even think those guys defensive impact are that much better than KCP's. Good DRPM does not necessarily mean good defender, especially non Bigs like I mentioned. DRPM also favors defensive rebounds, which obviously hurts a guy like KCP.

I understand 1 or 2 advanced stats can be misleading but 4 from a total of 3 different sites?
Josh Hart when on the floor, opponents shot 49% with a ORTG of 109.8 and when he's off the court, they shot 53% with ORTG OF 113. But ok for the sake of argument KCP is not that bad, but if he hit his CAREER average of 34.5% FOR 470 games, can you honestly tell me this is really enough to open the defense? He actually upped it to 34.7% last season and yet only 9 SGs shot worst than him.


Yea I'm not expecting much from KCP on offense. I think I might've missed those 4 advanced stats you posted. You might be using variations of the same stats from different sites. However, like I said defense is pretty difficult to measure in a stat. If I remember correctly, the stats you mentioned are heavily dependent on box score and defensive rebounding. Measuring individual defense based on team's performance can be very misleading. I already acknowledged that KCP is not some lockdown defender, but can we not agree he's not worse than Korver or significantly worse than Hart as indicated by Hart's 90 percentile to KCP's bottom10th percentile rank.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#37 » by lalalaker » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:32 am

The problem i have with all this signings is that these players are all signed on a short term deal which means they want to get as much playing time to appeal to teams for next contract preferably a bigger one than before and so when you have players dissatisfied with their Playing time they complain and rightfully so they should because they want their career to last long as they can. I hope coach decides who to play based on skills instead of how long they are in the league.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#38 » by Landsberger » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:53 pm

what would jack bauer do? wrote:Current roster, it should be without a doubt Caruso. He's primed to be a Pat Beverly level defender (without all the antics) and he's got a ton of potential on offense.


This is a pretty bold statement. For me Caruso has shown some promise playing on the second unit on very poor teams at the end of very poor seasons against teams coasting to the end of the season. I don't see how that translates to the pressure of being expected to win every night against starters for 35-40 mins a game.

Let's revisit this after 30 games.
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#39 » by Uncle Dave » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:00 pm

I am hoping Caruso by the end of the year
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Re: who should our starting PG be? 

Post#40 » by zimpy27 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:31 pm

Caruso becoming the player we all think he can be will be huge for the team. If he really becomes Lowry-lite or George Hill-like then this team will be tough to beat.
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