ImageImageImageImageImage

Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis

Moderators: TyCobb, Kilroy, Danny Darko

Ball so hard
Rookie
Posts: 1,080
And1: 397
Joined: Jul 04, 2017
     

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#21 » by Ball so hard » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:41 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:This will be controversial...

Rondo's Weighted Player PTS DIFF by position is as follows:

2018
C - 40 possessions. Centers scored a combined net +27 points more than their season average.
PF - 84 possessions. PF scored a combined net +35 points more than their season average.
SF - 154 possessions. SF combined under performed their their season average by -10 points.
SG - 277 possessions. SG scored a combined net +24 points more than their season average.
PG - 696 possessions. PG combined under performed their their season average by -148 points.

2017
C - 36 possessions. Centers scored a combined net +18 points more than their season average.
PF - 96 possessions. PF scored a combined net +24 points more than their season average.
SF - 162 possessions. SF scored a combined net +10 points more than their season average.
SG - 223 possessions. SG scored a combined net +31 points more than their season average.
PG - 748 possessions. PG combined under performed their their season average by -104 point.

Obviously this doesn't tell the whole story. Most would agree Rondo should spend a significant amount of time on the bench. However, his defense against PG has been consistently good. I've spent more time scrubbing his numbers than any other player and I keep arriving at the same conclusion.

Further breakdown of his PG numbers for 2018:
- Sample size for PGs is 66
- Positive impact guarding 44 PG vs. negative guarding 22

Top 10 positive (good) point differential:
1. Darren Collison
2. Jamal Murray
3. Russell Westbrook
4. D'Angelo Russell
5. Ricky Rubio
6. T.J. McConnell
7. De'Aaron Fox
8. Emmanuel Mudiay
9. Kemba Walker
10. Jeff Teague

Top 10 negative (bad) point differential:
1. James Harden
2. Elie Okobo
3. Andrew Harrison
4. Stephen Curry
5. Jalen Brunson
6. Dennis Schroder
7. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
8. Jerryd Bayless
9. Kris Dunn
10.Patty Mills

I appreaciate the honesty esp when you stated this doesn't tell the whole story. Of course it doesn't Even other advanced stats including DRPM RANKED HIM 80TH among 104 PGs and yes I know how you hate their ranking right? I kinda knew yours is a little skewed when it indicated how KCP is not as bad as ESPN'S DRPM (YES I know you didn't like it) , 3 (dbpm,DRTG AND ON/OFF STATS) from basketballref and another from cleaningtheglass.com.


Again, you are misusing the stat. You're equating DRPM ranking to a player's defensive ranking relative to their position... this is wrong. Bonga is 14th on that list. Fultz is 24th on that list. No stat should be taken as a be all end all. The list i've posted is not a ranking.
User avatar
zimpy27
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 12,644
And1: 11,636
Joined: Jul 13, 2014

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#22 » by zimpy27 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:34 am

Ball so hard wrote:This will be controversial...

Rondo's Weighted Player PTS DIFF by position is as follows:

2018
C - 40 possessions. Centers scored a combined net +27 points more than their season average.
PF - 84 possessions. PF scored a combined net +35 points more than their season average.
SF - 154 possessions. SF combined under performed their their season average by -10 points.
SG - 277 possessions. SG scored a combined net +24 points more than their season average.
PG - 696 possessions. PG combined under performed their their season average by -148 points.

2017
C - 36 possessions. Centers scored a combined net +18 points more than their season average.
PF - 96 possessions. PF scored a combined net +24 points more than their season average.
SF - 162 possessions. SF scored a combined net +10 points more than their season average.
SG - 223 possessions. SG scored a combined net +31 points more than their season average.
PG - 748 possessions. PG combined under performed their their season average by -104 point.

Obviously this doesn't tell the whole story. Most would agree Rondo should spend a significant amount of time on the bench. However, his defense against PG has been consistently good. I've spent more time scrubbing his numbers than any other player and I keep arriving at the same conclusion.

Further breakdown of his PG numbers for 2018:
- Sample size for PGs is 66
- Positive impact guarding 44 PG vs. negative guarding 22

Top 10 positive (good) point differential:
1. Darren Collison
2. Jamal Murray
3. Russell Westbrook
4. D'Angelo Russell
5. Ricky Rubio
6. T.J. McConnell
7. De'Aaron Fox
8. Emmanuel Mudiay
9. Kemba Walker
10. Jeff Teague

Top 10 negative (bad) point differential:
1. James Harden
2. Elie Okobo
3. Andrew Harrison
4. Stephen Curry
5. Jalen Brunson
6. Dennis Schroder
7. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
8. Jerryd Bayless
9. Kris Dunn
10.Patty Mills


That's not so controversial. Rondo is a problem for disrupting team flow more than one on one ability. Unfortunately he makes others worse.
"Let's play some basketball!" - Fergie
stan francisco
Analyst
Posts: 3,296
And1: 865
Joined: Oct 20, 2015
 

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#23 » by stan francisco » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:30 am

I think the kids need to get with the Rondo team defense program and he won’t make them worse anymore.

Rondo and Kidd as advisers for PG defense is priceless. Rondos scheme against Harden (overplay him left to make him go right) is brilliantly simplistic and effective enough to slow him down enough to win. Look at what we did to Curry and Klay on Christmas. I can only guess but I credit Rondo for the strategy. He’ll be a good defensive coach one day. Priceless even at 1-2MPG, IMO.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
User avatar
zimpy27
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 12,644
And1: 11,636
Joined: Jul 13, 2014

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#24 » by zimpy27 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:57 pm

stan francisco wrote:I think the kids need to get with the Rondo team defense program and he won’t make them worse anymore.

Rondo and Kidd as advisers for PG defense is priceless. Rondos scheme against Harden (overplay him left to make him go right) is brilliantly simplistic and effective enough to slow him down enough to win. Look at what we did to Curry and Klay on Christmas. I can only guess but I credit Rondo for the strategy. He’ll be a good defensive coach one day. Priceless even at 1-2MPG, IMO.


Yeah his IQ is great and his strategy is solid. He just doesn't have the energy to translate it on the court these days. He's IQ doesn't extend much beyond himself, he'd be ideal in a 3 vs 3 format or 2 vs 2. He has the selfish gene that I think is detrimental. He's an interesting study I think. Very similar to the last season or so of Kobe where he's clearly skilled and has the highest IQ out there but every other player on the team plays worse with them.

Hopefully he sits on the bench and can study a guard in-game, then come in later in the game to shut them down.
"Let's play some basketball!" - Fergie
stan francisco
Analyst
Posts: 3,296
And1: 865
Joined: Oct 20, 2015
 

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#25 » by stan francisco » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:47 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:I think the kids need to get with the Rondo team defense program and he won’t make them worse anymore.

Rondo and Kidd as advisers for PG defense is priceless. Rondos scheme against Harden (overplay him left to make him go right) is brilliantly simplistic and effective enough to slow him down enough to win. Look at what we did to Curry and Klay on Christmas. I can only guess but I credit Rondo for the strategy. He’ll be a good defensive coach one day. Priceless even at 1-2MPG, IMO.



Yeah his IQ is great and his strategy is solid. He just doesn't have the energy to translate it on the court these days. He's IQ doesn't extend much beyond himself, he'd be ideal in a 3 vs 3 format or 2 vs 2. He has the selfish gene that I think is detrimental. He's an interesting study I think. Very similar to the last season or so of Kobe where he's clearly skilled and has the highest IQ out there but every other player on the team plays worse with them.

Hopefully he sits on the bench and can study a guard in-game, then come in later in the game to shut them down.


Good points, and I mostly agree. Where I have a slight disagreement is that Rondo’s selfish gene amounts to a team agenda of winning, and a stubborn mindset of how to do it. Kobe’s selfish gene agenda was to be the mamba, sometime at all cost, (except in game 7 against Boston where he sacrificed for the greater good of the team by bringing down 15 rebounds. There are more examples of course but you get my point.)

Rondo, with the right players covering behind him, players who get what he’s doing and compensate by covering; team defense oriented players like KG and AD and even LBJ (when engaged), is going to be better than most posters here think, I think.

My thoughts on what to expect from Rondo this season is the following: He’s gonna challenge Kidd about what’s the best strategy and it’ll help us get better. He’s also gonna challenge LBJ when needed. He has AD’s ear. When LBJ sits, Rondo and AD and Kuzma and Green will do just fine offensively, as AD loves to play with Rondo. He’s probably not gonna get that many minutes until April. I’m fine with 2-6MPG until then.

Point being, the last two years he’s played with puppies. He’s an old savvy dog, albeit with knees shot. Now he has some old dogs around him who get what he’s doing and will function better both in terms of team defense and in an offensive system, imho.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
User avatar
zimpy27
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 12,644
And1: 11,636
Joined: Jul 13, 2014

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#26 » by zimpy27 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:55 pm

stan francisco wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:I think the kids need to get with the Rondo team defense program and he won’t make them worse anymore.

Rondo and Kidd as advisers for PG defense is priceless. Rondos scheme against Harden (overplay him left to make him go right) is brilliantly simplistic and effective enough to slow him down enough to win. Look at what we did to Curry and Klay on Christmas. I can only guess but I credit Rondo for the strategy. He’ll be a good defensive coach one day. Priceless even at 1-2MPG, IMO.



Yeah his IQ is great and his strategy is solid. He just doesn't have the energy to translate it on the court these days. He's IQ doesn't extend much beyond himself, he'd be ideal in a 3 vs 3 format or 2 vs 2. He has the selfish gene that I think is detrimental. He's an interesting study I think. Very similar to the last season or so of Kobe where he's clearly skilled and has the highest IQ out there but every other player on the team plays worse with them.

Hopefully he sits on the bench and can study a guard in-game, then come in later in the game to shut them down.


Good points, and I mostly agree. Where I have a slight disagreement is that Rondo’s selfish gene amounts to a team agenda of winning, and a stubborn mindset of how to do it. Kobe’s selfish gene agenda was to be the mamba, sometime at all cost, (except in game 7 against Boston where he sacrificed for the greater good of the team by bringing down 15 rebounds. There are more examples of course but you get my point.)

Rondo, with the right players covering behind him, players who get what he’s doing and compensate by covering; team defense oriented players like KG and AD and even LBJ (when engaged), is going to be better than most posters here think, I think.

My thoughts on what to expect from Rondo this season is the following: He’s gonna challenge Kidd about what’s the best strategy and it’ll help us get better. He’s also gonna challenge LBJ when needed. He has AD’s ear. When LBJ sits, Rondo and AD and Kuzma and Green will do just fine offensively, as AD loves to play with Rondo. He’s probably not gonna get that many minutes until April. I’m fine with 2-6MPG until then.

Point being, the last two years he’s played with puppies. He’s an old savvy dog, albeit with knees shot. Now he has some old dogs around him who get what he’s doing and will function better both in terms of team defense and in an offensive system, imho.


That would be great if he can contribute on the floor and make the team better. Will have to wait and see.

My thoughts of getting high IQ guys in a room is that they won't challenge each other much. It's more likely that they feel relieved to be able to speak that language with each other. It can be a lot of pressure to be hyper aware and leading a team on that front. But having 3 is ideal because 2 can convince 1.

My expectation on having more high IQ guys is that it changes the culture to high IQ, and that becomes the goal of the teammates to also become high IQ. To strive for that, to join the conversations Rondo, LeBron and Kidd have with each other.
"Let's play some basketball!" - Fergie
stan francisco
Analyst
Posts: 3,296
And1: 865
Joined: Oct 20, 2015
 

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#27 » by stan francisco » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:41 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:

Yeah his IQ is great and his strategy is solid. He just doesn't have the energy to translate it on the court these days. He's IQ doesn't extend much beyond himself, he'd be ideal in a 3 vs 3 format or 2 vs 2. He has the selfish gene that I think is detrimental. He's an interesting study I think. Very similar to the last season or so of Kobe where he's clearly skilled and has the highest IQ out there but every other player on the team plays worse with them.

Hopefully he sits on the bench and can study a guard in-game, then come in later in the game to shut them down.


Good points, and I mostly agree. Where I have a slight disagreement is that Rondo’s selfish gene amounts to a team agenda of winning, and a stubborn mindset of how to do it. Kobe’s selfish gene agenda was to be the mamba, sometime at all cost, (except in game 7 against Boston where he sacrificed for the greater good of the team by bringing down 15 rebounds. There are more examples of course but you get my point.)

Rondo, with the right players covering behind him, players who get what he’s doing and compensate by covering; team defense oriented players like KG and AD and even LBJ (when engaged), is going to be better than most posters here think, I think.

My thoughts on what to expect from Rondo this season is the following: He’s gonna challenge Kidd about what’s the best strategy and it’ll help us get better. He’s also gonna challenge LBJ when needed. He has AD’s ear. When LBJ sits, Rondo and AD and Kuzma and Green will do just fine offensively, as AD loves to play with Rondo. He’s probably not gonna get that many minutes until April. I’m fine with 2-6MPG until then.

Point being, the last two years he’s played with puppies. He’s an old savvy dog, albeit with knees shot. Now he has some old dogs around him who get what he’s doing and will function better both in terms of team defense and in an offensive system, imho.


That would be great if he can contribute on the floor and make the team better. Will have to wait and see.

My thoughts of getting high IQ guys in a room is that they won't challenge each other much. It's more likely that they feel relieved to be able to speak that language with each other. It can be a lot of pressure to be hyper aware and leading a team on that front. But having 3 is ideal because 2 can convince 1.

My expectation on having more high IQ guys is that it changes the culture to high IQ, and that becomes the goal of the teammates to also become high IQ. To strive for that, to join the conversations Rondo, LeBron and Kidd have with each other.


My guess is that Rondo will perform much better this year. Savvy players understand savvy players.

He’s another player whose stats pre vs post Christmas would be an interesting comparison. He looked efficient according to the old eye test on both ends of the ball for the first stretch of the season.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
tamaraw08
Junior
Posts: 355
And1: 63
Joined: Feb 13, 2019
     

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#28 » by tamaraw08 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:37 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:This will be controversial...

Rondo's Weighted Player PTS DIFF by position is as follows:

2018
C - 40 possessions. Centers scored a combined net +27 points more than their season average.
PF - 84 possessions. PF scored a combined net +35 points more than their season average.
SF - 154 possessions. SF combined under performed their their season average by -10 points.
SG - 277 possessions. SG scored a combined net +24 points more than their season average.
PG - 696 possessions. PG combined under performed their their season average by -148 points.

2017
C - 36 possessions. Centers scored a combined net +18 points more than their season average.
PF - 96 possessions. PF scored a combined net +24 points more than their season average.
SF - 162 possessions. SF scored a combined net +10 points more than their season average.
SG - 223 possessions. SG scored a combined net +31 points more than their season average.
PG - 748 possessions. PG combined under performed their their season average by -104 point.

Obviously this doesn't tell the whole story. Most would agree Rondo should spend a significant amount of time on the bench. However, his defense against PG has been consistently good. I've spent more time scrubbing his numbers than any other player and I keep arriving at the same conclusion.

Further breakdown of his PG numbers for 2018:
- Sample size for PGs is 66
- Positive impact guarding 44 PG vs. negative guarding 22

Top 10 positive (good) point differential:
1. Darren Collison
2. Jamal Murray
3. Russell Westbrook
4. D'Angelo Russell
5. Ricky Rubio
6. T.J. McConnell
7. De'Aaron Fox
8. Emmanuel Mudiay
9. Kemba Walker
10. Jeff Teague

Top 10 negative (bad) point differential:
1. James Harden
2. Elie Okobo
3. Andrew Harrison
4. Stephen Curry
5. Jalen Brunson
6. Dennis Schroder
7. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
8. Jerryd Bayless
9. Kris Dunn
10.Patty Mills


That's not so controversial. Rondo is a problem for disrupting team flow more than one on one ability. Unfortunately he makes others worse.

I think you might have misunderstood to numbers. Per basketball ref teams have a much higher ORTG AND EFG % when he’s on the floor while per his numbers actual pgs were less efficient which contradicts 3 other sites
tamaraw08
Junior
Posts: 355
And1: 63
Joined: Feb 13, 2019
     

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#29 » by tamaraw08 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:24 pm

stan francisco wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:I think the kids need to get with the Rondo team defense program and he won’t make them worse anymore.

Rondo and Kidd as advisers for PG defense is priceless. Rondos scheme against Harden (overplay him left to make him go right) is brilliantly simplistic and effective enough to slow him down enough to win. Look at what we did to Curry and Klay on Christmas. I can only guess but I credit Rondo for the strategy. He’ll be a good defensive coach one day. Priceless even at

Yeah his IQ is great and his strategy is solid. He just doesn't have the energy to translate it on the court these days. He's IQ doesn't extend much beyond himself, he'd be ideal in a 3 vs 3 format or 2 vs 2. He has the selfish gene that I think is detrimental. He's an interesting study I think. Very similar to the last season or so of Kobe where he's clearly skilled and has the highest IQ out there but every other player on the team plays worse with them.

Hopefully he sits on the bench and can study a guard in-game, then come in later in the game to shut them down.


Good points, and I mostly agree. Where I have a slight disagreement is that Rondo’s selfish gene amounts to a team agenda of winning, and a stubborn mindset of how to do it. Kobe’s selfish gene agenda was to be the mamba, sometime at all cost, (except in game 7 against Boston where he sacrificed for the greater good of the team by bringing down 15 rebounds. There are more examples of course but you get my point.)

Rondo, with the right players covering behind him, players who get what he’s doing and compensate by covering; team defense oriented players like KG and AD and even LBJ (when engaged), is going to be better than most posters here think, I think.

My thoughts on what to expect from Rondo this season is the following: He’s gonna challenge Kidd about what’s the best strategy and it’ll help us get better. He’s also gonna challenge LBJ when needed. He has AD’s ear. When LBJ sits, Rondo and AD and Kuzma and Green will do just fine offensively, as AD loves to play with Rondo. He’s probably not gonna get that many minutes until April. I’m fine with 2-6MPG until then.

Point being, the last two years he’s played with puppies. He’s an old savvy dog, albeit with knees shot. Now he has some old dogs around him who get what he’s doing and will function better both in terms of team defense and in an offensive system, imho.

But individual agenda and coach/team agenda don’t always align. I think of Rodman who refused to help DRob in defending Olajuwon bec he wanted to collect rebounds instead. Or other players who’ll rather attempt to steal the ball at times via interceptions instead of staying home and hold ground. I think of Gary Payton, Glen Rice who struggled with Phil Jackson’s triangle Offense etc. There are other schemes out there that can work but unfortunately some players think they are way smarter than coaches that it actually mess with whole teams overall ability to apply a unified system
Ball so hard
Rookie
Posts: 1,080
And1: 397
Joined: Jul 04, 2017
     

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#30 » by Ball so hard » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:26 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:This will be controversial...

Rondo's Weighted Player PTS DIFF by position is as follows:

2018
C - 40 possessions. Centers scored a combined net +27 points more than their season average.
PF - 84 possessions. PF scored a combined net +35 points more than their season average.
SF - 154 possessions. SF combined under performed their their season average by -10 points.
SG - 277 possessions. SG scored a combined net +24 points more than their season average.
PG - 696 possessions. PG combined under performed their their season average by -148 points.

2017
C - 36 possessions. Centers scored a combined net +18 points more than their season average.
PF - 96 possessions. PF scored a combined net +24 points more than their season average.
SF - 162 possessions. SF scored a combined net +10 points more than their season average.
SG - 223 possessions. SG scored a combined net +31 points more than their season average.
PG - 748 possessions. PG combined under performed their their season average by -104 point.

Obviously this doesn't tell the whole story. Most would agree Rondo should spend a significant amount of time on the bench. However, his defense against PG has been consistently good. I've spent more time scrubbing his numbers than any other player and I keep arriving at the same conclusion.

Further breakdown of his PG numbers for 2018:
- Sample size for PGs is 66
- Positive impact guarding 44 PG vs. negative guarding 22

Top 10 positive (good) point differential:
1. Darren Collison
2. Jamal Murray
3. Russell Westbrook
4. D'Angelo Russell
5. Ricky Rubio
6. T.J. McConnell
7. De'Aaron Fox
8. Emmanuel Mudiay
9. Kemba Walker
10. Jeff Teague

Top 10 negative (bad) point differential:
1. James Harden
2. Elie Okobo
3. Andrew Harrison
4. Stephen Curry
5. Jalen Brunson
6. Dennis Schroder
7. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
8. Jerryd Bayless
9. Kris Dunn
10.Patty Mills


That's not so controversial. Rondo is a problem for disrupting team flow more than one on one ability. Unfortunately he makes others worse.

I think you might have misunderstood to numbers. Per basketball ref teams have a much higher ORTG AND EFG % when he’s on the floor while per his numbers actual pgs were less efficient which contradicts 3 other sites


Honestly not even sure what you're talking about. I'm afraid you may be ascribing to me things I never said. Not once have I mentioned anything about efficiency. It's almost as if you're beginning to learn ORTG, EFG%, DRPM, etc. (which is fine) and are simply trying to test your newly acquired knowledge.
stan francisco
Analyst
Posts: 3,296
And1: 865
Joined: Oct 20, 2015
 

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#31 » by stan francisco » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:42 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
stan francisco wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Good points, and I mostly agree. Where I have a slight disagreement is that Rondo’s selfish gene amounts to a team agenda of winning, and a stubborn mindset of how to do it. Kobe’s selfish gene agenda was to be the mamba, sometime at all cost, (except in game 7 against Boston where he sacrificed for the greater good of the team by bringing down 15 rebounds. There are more examples of course but you get my point.)

Rondo, with the right players covering behind him, players who get what he’s doing and compensate by covering; team defense oriented players like KG and AD and even LBJ (when engaged), is going to be better than most posters here think, I think.

My thoughts on what to expect from Rondo this season is the following: He’s gonna challenge Kidd about what’s the best strategy and it’ll help us get better. He’s also gonna challenge LBJ when needed. He has AD’s ear. When LBJ sits, Rondo and AD and Kuzma and Green will do just fine offensively, as AD loves to play with Rondo. He’s probably not gonna get that many minutes until April. I’m fine with 2-6MPG until then.

Point being, the last two years he’s played with puppies. He’s an old savvy dog, albeit with knees shot. Now he has some old dogs around him who get what he’s doing and will function better both in terms of team defense and in an offensive system, imho.

But individual agenda and coach/team agenda don’t always align. I think of Rodman who refused to help DRob in defending Olajuwon bec he wanted to collect rebounds instead. Or other players who’ll rather attempt to steal the ball at times via interceptions instead of staying home and hold ground. I think of Gary Payton, Glen Rice who struggled with Phil Jackson’s triangle Offense etc. There are other schemes out there that can work but unfortunately some players think they are way smarter than coaches that it actually mess with whole teams overall ability to apply a unified system


What you mention is what Doc both hated and loved about Rondo.

When Rondo was injured he was wearing a suit, hanging with the coaching staff with clipboard in hand, listening to the coaches’ circle from the back seats. If a player is that intent on understanding and learning the system, kudos. I’d welcome his opinion if I were the coach. I don’t think Rondo is as willfully ignorant nowadays as in his earlier years.

Knees shot, indeed. Sage knowledge extra coach on the floor, indeed.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
tamaraw08
Junior
Posts: 355
And1: 63
Joined: Feb 13, 2019
     

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#32 » by tamaraw08 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:34 pm

Ball so hard wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
That's not so controversial. Rondo is a problem for disrupting team flow more than one on one ability. Unfortunately he makes others worse.

I think you might have misunderstood to numbers. Per basketball ref teams have a much higher ORTG AND EFG % when he’s on the floor while per his numbers actual pgs were less efficient which contradicts 3 other sites


Honestly not even sure what you're talking about. I'm afraid you may be ascribing to me things I never said. Not once have I mentioned anything about efficiency. It's almost as if you're beginning to learn ORTG, EFG%, DRPM, etc. (which is fine) and are simply trying to test your newly acquired knowledge.

Wow, did you actually read this message properly?
I was replying to Zimpy NOT YOU! You said these numbers you presented were controversial, zimpy said no its not, then started mentioning about “team flow””...I actually AGREED with you which I felt has nothing to do with it !
I was the one who mentioned opponents ORTG AND EFG% on and off stats to contradict what he said.
Ball so hard
Rookie
Posts: 1,080
And1: 397
Joined: Jul 04, 2017
     

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#33 » by Ball so hard » Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:21 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:I think you might have misunderstood to numbers. Per basketball ref teams have a much higher ORTG AND EFG % when he’s on the floor while per his numbers actual pgs were less efficient which contradicts 3 other sites


Honestly not even sure what you're talking about. I'm afraid you may be ascribing to me things I never said. Not once have I mentioned anything about efficiency. It's almost as if you're beginning to learn ORTG, EFG%, DRPM, etc. (which is fine) and are simply trying to test your newly acquired knowledge.

Wow, did you actually read this message properly?
I was replying to Zimpy NOT YOU! You said these numbers you presented were controversial, zimpy said no its not, then started mentioning about “team flow””...I actually AGREED with you which I felt has nothing to do with it !
I was the one who mentioned opponents ORTG AND EFG% on and off stats to contradict what he said.


Apologies. Viewed the post on my phone and must've missed it.
User avatar
zimpy27
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 12,644
And1: 11,636
Joined: Jul 13, 2014

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#34 » by zimpy27 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:13 am

tamaraw08 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:I think you might have misunderstood to numbers. Per basketball ref teams have a much higher ORTG AND EFG % when he’s on the floor while per his numbers actual pgs were less efficient which contradicts 3 other sites


Honestly not even sure what you're talking about. I'm afraid you may be ascribing to me things I never said. Not once have I mentioned anything about efficiency. It's almost as if you're beginning to learn ORTG, EFG%, DRPM, etc. (which is fine) and are simply trying to test your newly acquired knowledge.

Wow, did you actually read this message properly?
I was replying to Zimpy NOT YOU! You said these numbers you presented were controversial, zimpy said no its not, then started mentioning about “team flow””...I actually AGREED with you which I felt has nothing to do with it !
I was the one who mentioned opponents ORTG AND EFG% on and off stats to contradict what he said.


To be fair, i didn't really understand what you were saying either. :D
But I think we are all sort of agree with each other.
"Let's play some basketball!" - Fergie
tamaraw08
Junior
Posts: 355
And1: 63
Joined: Feb 13, 2019
     

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#35 » by tamaraw08 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:15 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
Honestly not even sure what you're talking about. I'm afraid you may be ascribing to me things I never said. Not once have I mentioned anything about efficiency. It's almost as if you're beginning to learn ORTG, EFG%, DRPM, etc. (which is fine) and are simply trying to test your newly acquired knowledge.

Wow, did you actually read this message properly?
I was replying to Zimpy NOT YOU! You said these numbers you presented were controversial, zimpy said no its not, then started mentioning about “team flow””...I actually AGREED with you which I felt has nothing to do with it !
I was the one who mentioned opponents ORTG AND EFG% on and off stats to contradict what he said.


To be fair, i didn't really understand what you were saying either. :D
But I think we are all sort of agree with each other.

Based on my own undertanding of BallsoHard's research, according to his words.
I wanted to see how some of our players did when defending certain positions. Specifically I wanted to see who would best defend PGs and therefore IMO should start since we most need someone who is competent at the PG position. There are obviously various metric used to rank defense, many of which factor in team defense, which i'd agree is far more important. I performed an analysis using Player PTS DIFF. Player PTS DIFF is an offensive player’s Points per 100 Possessions in a specific matchup compared to his season average Points per 100 Possessions.

He said Rondo's numbers are "controversial bec it indicated that most PGs actually are less efficient when Rajon was on the floor defending them. You said it's not controversial bec he disrupts "team flow".
I said, you probably misunderstood the research bec the way I understood it, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH "TEAM FLOW" or team efficiency, the specific SCOPE of that research was individual efficiency. I mentioned Rando's off and on the court defensive stats that opposing teams were actually much MORE EFFICIENT in terms of ORTG AND EFG% WHEN HE IS ON THE FLOOR.
It is my opinion that BallSoHard's research has some flaws in it as evidenced by Rondo's numbers but we can ALL AGREE THAT ALL DEFENSIVE STATS ARE NOT ALL ACCURATE.
ESPN didn't like DBPM AND DRTG bec it somewhat mask one's value when certain players are always paired with great defensive oriented teammates. My own problem with their stat is that most centers always have a highER POSITIVE rating as compared to PG'S.... However, I still adhere to my belief that is there are 3-4 advanced stats that are consistent with the results, then I tend to believe with those stats just like what they indicated with KCP.
Ball so hard
Rookie
Posts: 1,080
And1: 397
Joined: Jul 04, 2017
     

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#36 » by Ball so hard » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:44 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:Wow, did you actually read this message properly?
I was replying to Zimpy NOT YOU! You said these numbers you presented were controversial, zimpy said no its not, then started mentioning about “team flow””...I actually AGREED with you which I felt has nothing to do with it !
I was the one who mentioned opponents ORTG AND EFG% on and off stats to contradict what he said.


To be fair, i didn't really understand what you were saying either. :D
But I think we are all sort of agree with each other.

Based on my own undertanding of BallsoHard's research, according to his words.
I wanted to see how some of our players did when defending certain positions. Specifically I wanted to see who would best defend PGs and therefore IMO should start since we most need someone who is competent at the PG position. There are obviously various metric used to rank defense, many of which factor in team defense, which i'd agree is far more important. I performed an analysis using Player PTS DIFF. Player PTS DIFF is an offensive player’s Points per 100 Possessions in a specific matchup compared to his season average Points per 100 Possessions.

He said Rondo's numbers are "controversial bec it indicated that most PGs actually are less efficient when Rajon was on the floor defending them. You said it's not controversial bec he disrupts "team flow".
I said, you probably misunderstood the research bec the way I understood it, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH "TEAM FLOW" or team efficiency, the specific SCOPE of that research was individual efficiency. I mentioned Rando's off and on the court defensive stats that opposing teams were actually much MORE EFFICIENT in terms of ORTG AND EFG% WHEN HE IS ON THE FLOOR.
It is my opinion that BallSoHard's research has some flaws in it as evidenced by Rondo's numbers but we can ALL AGREE THAT ALL DEFENSIVE STATS ARE NOT ALL ACCURATE.
ESPN didn't like DBPM AND DRTG bec it somewhat mask one's value when certain players are always paired with great defensive oriented teammates. My own problem with their stat is that most centers always have a highER POSITIVE rating as compared to PG'S.... However, I still adhere to my belief that is there are 3-4 advanced stats that are consistent with the results, then I tend to believe with those stats just like what they indicated with KCP.


I never said the bolded part. I think you misread my post. I mentioned controversial in the context of Rondo being probably the most disliked player on our team and hence many would question his numbers (impact). The scope of the research wasn't efficiency... it would be difficult to get meaningful efficiency numbers given a great number of individual matchups resulted in a rather insignificant amount of possessions. For example, lets say Rondo guarded Harden for 5 possessions; Harden went 0-5 - this doesn't tell me much at all. I think you are conflating a few things. I honestly think you're confused by what the numbers in the analysis mean... Rondo was basically a negative while defending all but PG position. In aggregate he was a negative on the defensive side... I would guess this is probably in line with his DRTG, DRPM, etc. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding on your part. I digress.
User avatar
zimpy27
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 12,644
And1: 11,636
Joined: Jul 13, 2014

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#37 » by zimpy27 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:19 am

tamaraw08 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:Wow, did you actually read this message properly?
I was replying to Zimpy NOT YOU! You said these numbers you presented were controversial, zimpy said no its not, then started mentioning about “team flow””...I actually AGREED with you which I felt has nothing to do with it !
I was the one who mentioned opponents ORTG AND EFG% on and off stats to contradict what he said.


To be fair, i didn't really understand what you were saying either. :D
But I think we are all sort of agree with each other.

Based on my own undertanding of BallsoHard's research, according to his words.
I wanted to see how some of our players did when defending certain positions. Specifically I wanted to see who would best defend PGs and therefore IMO should start since we most need someone who is competent at the PG position. There are obviously various metric used to rank defense, many of which factor in team defense, which i'd agree is far more important. I performed an analysis using Player PTS DIFF. Player PTS DIFF is an offensive player’s Points per 100 Possessions in a specific matchup compared to his season average Points per 100 Possessions.

He said Rondo's numbers are "controversial bec it indicated that most PGs actually are less efficient when Rajon was on the floor defending them. You said it's not controversial bec he disrupts "team flow".
I said, you probably misunderstood the research bec the way I understood it, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH "TEAM FLOW" or team efficiency, the specific SCOPE of that research was individual efficiency. I mentioned Rando's off and on the court defensive stats that opposing teams were actually much MORE EFFICIENT in terms of ORTG AND EFG% WHEN HE IS ON THE FLOOR.
It is my opinion that BallSoHard's research has some flaws in it as evidenced by Rondo's numbers but we can ALL AGREE THAT ALL DEFENSIVE STATS ARE NOT ALL ACCURATE.
ESPN didn't like DBPM AND DRTG bec it somewhat mask one's value when certain players are always paired with great defensive oriented teammates. My own problem with their stat is that most centers always have a highER POSITIVE rating as compared to PG'S.... However, I still adhere to my belief that is there are 3-4 advanced stats that are consistent with the results, then I tend to believe with those stats just like what they indicated with KCP.



Ok, so I assumed Ball So Hard was saying it was controversial because we all think Rondo is a negative and yet the numbers he presented showed Rondo to be a positive. Which he has since just verified.

I went on to mean that it isn't controversial because we should expect Rondo is still good individually on his man but the reason we think he's all bad is what he does to the rest of the team, every player on the team has their worst 2-man lineup with Rondo, that only happens when you make your team worse.
While one can respect Rondo's one-on-one ability to cover PGs, we can also expect Rondo to put the teammates in a position to play worse and collectively drag the team down.
"Let's play some basketball!" - Fergie
stan francisco
Analyst
Posts: 3,296
And1: 865
Joined: Oct 20, 2015
 

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#38 » by stan francisco » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:47 am

The eye test says that Rondo was doing just fine on both ends until Christmas. Better than fine. Curious to know how he did up until then...

Also, when the other four guys playing with Rondo are savvy vets who see the game the right way, and get what he’s up to on his one-on-one battles, it’s easier for them to adapt to and improvise around Rondo’s defense than let’s say for young guys like Ingram, Kuzma, Caruso, Ball, Zubac, Hart...
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
User avatar
zimpy27
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 12,644
And1: 11,636
Joined: Jul 13, 2014

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#39 » by zimpy27 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:47 pm

Ball so hard wrote:.


Are you still doing these? Any chance we could see Cook, LeBron, AD?

Want to see if Cook can be a positive defender, if LeBron can defend guards because some want to see him at PG and whether AD is better against PFs than Cs.
"Let's play some basketball!" - Fergie
tamaraw08
Junior
Posts: 355
And1: 63
Joined: Feb 13, 2019
     

Re: Players' individual defense rating on a 1-on-1 basis 

Post#40 » by tamaraw08 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:22 pm

Ball so hard wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
To be fair, i didn't really understand what you were saying either. :D
But I think we are all sort of agree with each other.

Based on my own undertanding of BallsoHard's research, according to his words.
I wanted to see how some of our players did when defending certain positions. Specifically I wanted to see who would best defend PGs and therefore IMO should start since we most need someone who is competent at the PG position. There are obviously various metric used to rank defense, many of which factor in team defense, which i'd agree is far more important. I performed an analysis using Player PTS DIFF. Player PTS DIFF is an offensive player’s Points per 100 Possessions in a specific matchup compared to his season average Points per 100 Possessions.

He said Rondo's numbers are "controversial bec it indicated that most PGs actually are less efficient when Rajon was on the floor defending them. You said it's not controversial bec he disrupts "team flow".
I said, you probably misunderstood the research bec the way I understood it, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH "TEAM FLOW" or team efficiency, the specific SCOPE of that research was individual efficiency. I mentioned Rando's off and on the court defensive stats that opposing teams were actually much MORE EFFICIENT in terms of ORTG AND EFG% WHEN HE IS ON THE FLOOR.
It is my opinion that BallSoHard's research has some flaws in it as evidenced by Rondo's numbers but we can ALL AGREE THAT ALL DEFENSIVE STATS ARE NOT ALL ACCURATE.
ESPN didn't like DBPM AND DRTG bec it somewhat mask one's value when certain players are always paired with great defensive oriented teammates. My own problem with their stat is that most centers always have a highER POSITIVE rating as compared to PG'S.... However, I still adhere to my belief that is there are 3-4 advanced stats that are consistent with the results, then I tend to believe with those stats just like what they indicated with KCP.


I never said the bolded part. I think you misread my post. I mentioned controversial in the context of Rondo being probably the most disliked player on our team and hence many would question his numbers (impact). The scope of the research wasn't efficiency... it would be difficult to get meaningful efficiency numbers given a great number of individual matchups resulted in a rather insignificant amount of possessions. For example, lets say Rondo guarded Harden for 5 possessions; Harden went 0-5 - this doesn't tell me much at all. I think you are conflating a few things. I honestly think you're confused by what the numbers in the analysis mean... Rondo was basically a negative while defending all but PG position. In aggregate he was a negative on the defensive side... I would guess this is probably in line with his DRTG, DRPM, etc. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding on your part. I digress.

So you don't want to define it as player "efficiency", what do you want to call it then?
You've been pretty clear tho on why exactly did you do this specific research, to determine who among the current players is the best in defending certain positions esp the PG.
Not a few here are very not impressed with Rondo's defense, some based it on eye test,carefully watching the games, advanced stats or both. Your result indicated he actually was among the top guys who defends the PG's, correct?
Well other advanced stats says otherwise.
Yes, ESPN ranked him 80th among 104 listed PGs with a -1.38. And yes I know scrubs like Bonga and Jemerio Jones can look better too, but I look at the leaders and they seemed consistent with other advanced stats.
For basketballref when he is on the court, opposing teams's EFG WAS HIGH at 53.5% at 115.2 ORTG,
when he's off the court, opposing teams EFG goes down to 50.5% at a lower 107.9 ORTG, https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/on-off/2019
but then again his DBPM is an ok 0.5 8TH in the team and YES lower than the scrubs(which we can agree are skewed).
But I think we can all agree defensive stats can be misleading. You yourself said, your research DOESN'T TELL THE WHOLE STORY.
btw, I want to know the results of Cook, Daniels etc., thanks

Return to Los Angeles Lakers