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Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense

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Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#1 » by lazybatman » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:07 pm

Hey guys,

I just watched the game on league pass, and couldn't help but notice that Lebron played uncannily low p'n'r with any of the bigs - AD, McGee and DH.

Were the Clips that good on defense OR was it game theory so early in the season?


If the Lakers did indeed decide to hold back the big to big pnr from the Clips as Game theory, it would make sense, as the Clips could virtually go to the post season, without any experience in defending against a big to big pnr with two players of the caliber of Bron and AD, unless Balmer figures out a way to teleport them back to 1995. I can't imagine why AD would just go post up and ask for the ball every play like it was the 90s again, instead of pnr with Bron, which has already been working well in the preseason.

My takeaways -
-ves
- Bron's playmaking looked torrid without the p'n'r game. Too much of feeding AD in the post and too little of driving in > kicking out / finishing at the rim.
- Rondo's influence is gonna be crucial, specially when Bron's resting.
- Defensive communication
- Clips are a great team - young, energetic, well coached, still awaiting that bad man in the tux to heal up.

+ves
- Pretty happy with the roster. Fitness permitting, the squad is gonna be great, specially once they get their defensive communication down later in the season, specially against pnr.
- Bron's pnr game with bigs is gonna invite double / triple teams > Bron / AD still finish through them successfully or get easy kick outs to wide open shooters.
- AD looked sensational in iso-post ups. I didn't know he was that good on the low block.
- Danny Green more than made up for the other shooters off night. It's good to know that we have multiple guys on the roster who can all take turns having off nights, and make up for each other the next day.
- Bron was the best defender on both teams, which you probably can't say for the last 5 years. Good to see him committed. Still not expecting him to make the all defensive team ever again.
- Clips lack good playmaking. All these sets gonna get exposed in the post season.

Am I making sense at all, or is it just lack of sleep? :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#2 » by nzahir » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:53 am

2 things:

1) I also realized we didn't run many pick and rolls, especially with bron and AD. Why? I could and couldn't tell you. When AD is at the 4 and Lebron is at the 3, they would just switch. Need AD at the 5 and Lebron at the 4 to be more effective doing this. I also think we possibly didn't want to expose likely our most lethal play vs them, sort of like how GS didn't use KD and Curry pick and roll much until playoffs.


2) Clippers lacked good playmaking? Did they really? Lou and Trez have great chemistry and their iso guys (lou and kawhi) were stellar. Kawhi might be the best in the world rn, and hes an elite mid range guy who can always get that shot. Mind you PG comes back too.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#3 » by TheHartBreakKid » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:24 am

I don't know if I would go as far as call it game theory, but I believe the Laker's thought that AD post ups and Iso's would be more efficient than the Lebron/AD p&r. The clippers certainly played some great defense as well. From the gameplan perspective, i think the lakers either overestimated AD's ability to dominate their bigs in the post, or they underestimate how good their bigs are at holding their own. I believe the thought process was: The clippers have the team defense and quick feet to cover the P&R, but they don't have the size to handle AD in the post.


Obviously, this gameplan didn't work out.

AD did solid in the post, don't get me wrong. He didn't have a great shooting night but that doesn't necessarily mean that the game plan is flawed. The problem was that Lebron looked uncomfortable out there, and AD didn't dominate inside enough to make up for that. That was the real issue imo, and that's why I believe we shouldn't force AD in the post. Sure, let him feast on poor matchups. I'm certainly not advocating that we should play Lebron ball and delegate AD to just a roll man. I just think we need more of a balance.

But again, this was one game, and it's a work in progress. The clippers also played some great defense. I don't have the stats but I believe Harrell was the one defender that really made this strategy ineffective. From the eye test, I believe AD was too quick for Zu to handle, and too big for J.Green and Harkless. The problem was that despite being significantly shorter, Harrell didn't let AD get to his spots and contested everything (of course with a little help). I just don't think we should have the same strategy throughout the whole game. If the clippers think they can get away with Harkless or Green guarding AD, then without a doubt, pound it inside, but again, I think the coaching staff underestimated Harrell's one on one defensive ability and just focused on the height difference.


Additionally, and again I'm going off memory right now, but the clippers went under every screen set for Lebron. Lebron wasn't as aggressive as he should have been in trusting his J, and the times he did take his shots, he was off from the field. Even with that we probably should have gone to the P&R more though.


I think there's going to be a learning process when it comes to things like this, not just for the coaching staff or for AD, but also for Lebron. The good thing is that we have the talent to take care of the weaker teams early in the season. But yeah to answer your question, I don't believethe Lakers held back in any shape or form. They simply stubbornly stuck to their game plan when they should have made some necessary adjustments.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#4 » by Landsberger » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:25 am

In the day of every game televised from 40 cameras I don't think you can "hide" anything from anybody.

This team will be a work in progress for a while IMO. The Clippers have a system that been in place for several years and returning players in it. They have a head start on us in that the majority of our team is new in a new system with a new coach. Not rocket science.

We will get better at finding the right place for Bron and Davis. Having Rondo will help too.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#5 » by 76ciology » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:51 am

If the 3&4 run a PnR, Switch it then. You then may have Kawhi on AD and Harell on LeBron, which isnt a bad position for the defense.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#6 » by 76ciology » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:53 am

Doc played the old trick of letting your post heavy offense beat his perimeter driven offense, the later has a better points per possession in paper.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#7 » by Slava » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:23 am

Saw on twitter that the Lakers had a 1.35 points per possession off of post up actions, which is ridiculously good. I think part of it is game plan and part of it is LeBron wanting to establish Davis as the primary scoring option early in the season without exerting himself too much on the offense.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#8 » by Slava » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:25 am

76ciology wrote:Doc played the old trick of letting your post heavy offense beat his perimeter driven offense, the later has a better points per possession in paper.


Lakers won both the 3 point battle and free throws, which indicates that the Clippers did not win by banking on perimeter shots being worth more. Lakers lost the guard rebounding largely due to lack of effort and the bigs were ineffective on the offensive rebounds which makes a difference against a quality team.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#9 » by lazybatman » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:30 am

Fair points y'all. I am obsessed with conspiracy theories, so the mind just races in that direction. Will wait for more games league wide and against the Clips to see if this has any credibility.

Still having a hard time digesting the AD post ups, like he was Shaq in the 90s. :giveup:

nzahir wrote:Clippers lacked good playmaking? Did they really? Lou and Trez have great chemistry and their iso guys (lou and kawhi) were stellar. Kawhi might be the best in the world rn, and hes an elite mid range guy who can always get that shot. Mind you PG comes back too.


My fault mate. I should have clarified, I meant good PG playmaking to bring the whole team into the game. Lou is amazing with Harrel, but that's a set we will figure it out in a 7-game series. More likely because we have AD - the best p&r defender in the game on the team.

Kawhi wasn't allowed into the post too much, and feasted on shooting over shorter defenders with lesser elevation - Danny Green and KCP, despite a consistent effort on D. PG13 is pretty much the same in ISO.. prolly a couple of inches taller. Part of that is just them being great players, but we can make it difficult.

That, to me, underlines the importance of getting Iggy, when he becomes available, and playing Bron / AD on Kawahi / PG. Balmer may of course try to get him, just to block us out, despite being spoilt with good long wings already.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#10 » by lazybatman » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:39 am

Slava wrote:Saw on twitter that the Lakers had a 1.35 points per possession off of post up actions, which is ridiculously good. I think part of it is game plan and part of it is LeBron wanting to establish Davis as the primary scoring option early in the season without exerting himself too much on the offense.


That's a heck of a stat. As I said, I didn't know AD was this good in post iso.

I still think we needed more variety in the offense - big to big p&r, Lebron post ups/drives leading to kick outs or fouls.

I thought we were at the brink of getting them in foul trouble in the first 6-8 minutes of the game with our diminant bigs. Kawhi had two and their team had 9, all on bigs. Kawhi ended up with 5, which is extremely rare.

And AD seemed to have got the FT bug fro Lebron.. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#11 » by stan francisco » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:31 pm

Kobe would’ve been attached to Kawhi’s hip from start to finish. Weak sauce LeBron.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#12 » by myersia » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:30 pm

stan francisco wrote:Kobe would’ve been attached to Kawhi’s hip from start to finish. Weak sauce LeBron.


Not to start the whole Kobe vs Lebron debate but honestly since Lebron joined our team I’ve realized how underrated and unappreciated Kobe was. Take away the stats and all the bs analytics. Kobe too me was so much better than most say he was. Call me crazy but I think prime Kobe was better than Bron. For reasons like stan said. Dude played hard as hell.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#13 » by lazybatman » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:37 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:
myersia wrote:
stan francisco wrote:Kobe would’ve been attached to Kawhi’s hip from start to finish. Weak sauce LeBron.


Take away the stats and all the bs analytics.


The damn stats..
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#14 » by stan francisco » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:39 pm

lazybatman wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:
myersia wrote:
stan francisco wrote:Kobe would’ve been attached to Kawhi’s hip from start to finish. Weak sauce LeBron.


Take away the stats and all the bs analytics.


The damn stats..


Eye test says that grimacing, flexing and lowering your eye brows after an impressive play doesn’t equal badass. It equals acting like one. This, while Kawhi balled full out and got the win. Why didn’t he guard KL. It should be personal!

To me, that **** is the same as if tiger woods would’ve pumped his fist after a two inch gimme. Dunking is easy for LeBron.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#15 » by lazybatman » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:52 pm

stan francisco wrote:
lazybatman wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:
myersia wrote:
Take away the stats and all the bs analytics.


The damn stats..


Eye test says that grimacing, flexing and lowering your eye brows after an impressive play doesn’t equal badass. It equals acting like one. This, while Kawhi balled full out and got the win. Why didn’t he guard KL. It should be personal!

To me, that **** is the same as if tiger woods would’ve pumped his fist after a two inch gimme. Dunking is easy for LeBron.


Taking things personal can be interpreted as being petty. It's a team game. It's about winning by being efficient.

KL played a great game. Lebron didn't. It was one damn game though, that too the 1st game of a 82 game season. Still way better than two years of taking it personal and shooting 36% on 18 shots a night, trying to catch Michael on the one stat he could. Shameful to say the least!

Eye tests will always go with Kobe because of the flashy fade away jumpers he'd keep taking. I'm assuming you've already seen the stats to prove how inefficient he was, so I won't bother you with them.

Flexing, grimacing and other displays of emotion have nothing to do with it. Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer do it after every long rally. It's self motivation or evaluation of own actions to correct course. Btw, Kobe wasn't devoid of emotions and rightfully so. Kobe didn't care about his team mates(Shaq, Dwight, the entire roster in his last three years) or his team's success. You can call that killer instinct or being klutch too, or look at the bs analytics.

Being traded to the Lakers as a rook, to be coached by Phil Jackson and play alongside all time greats like Shaq, Pau & several others was the best thing that ever happened to him. PERIOD!
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#16 » by nzahir » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:48 pm

stan francisco wrote:
lazybatman wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:
myersia wrote:
Take away the stats and all the bs analytics.


The damn stats..


Eye test says that grimacing, flexing and lowering your eye brows after an impressive play doesn’t equal badass. It equals acting like one. This, while Kawhi balled full out and got the win. Why didn’t he guard KL. It should be personal!

To me, that **** is the same as if tiger woods would’ve pumped his fist after a two inch gimme. Dunking is easy for LeBron.

Lol kobe at the end of his career was a poor defender. The nostalgia is pretty funny
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#17 » by stan francisco » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:06 pm

lazybatman wrote:
stan francisco wrote:
lazybatman wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:

The damn stats..


Eye test says that grimacing, flexing and lowering your eye brows after an impressive play doesn’t equal badass. It equals acting like one. This, while Kawhi balled full out and got the win. Why didn’t he guard KL. It should be personal!

To me, that **** is the same as if tiger woods would’ve pumped his fist after a two inch gimme. Dunking is easy for LeBron.


Taking things personal can be interpreted as being petty. It's a team game. It's about winning by being efficient.

KL played a great game. Lebron didn't. It was one damn game though, that too the 1st game of a 82 game season. Still way better than two years of taking it personal and shooting 36% on 18 shots a night, trying to catch Michael on the one stat he could. Shameful to say the least!

Eye tests will always go with Kobe because of the flashy fade away jumpers he'd keep taking. I'm assuming you've already seen the stats to prove how inefficient he was, so I won't bother you with them.

Flexing, grimacing and other displays of emotion have nothing to do with it. Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer do it after every long rally. It's self motivation or evaluation of own actions to correct course. Btw, Kobe wasn't devoid of emotions and rightfully so. Kobe didn't care about his team mates(Shaq, Dwight, the entire roster in his last three years) or his team's success. You can call that killer instinct or being klutch too, or look at the bs analytics.

Being traded to the Lakers as a rook, to be coached by Phil Jackson and play alongside all time greats like Shaq, Pau & several others was the best thing that ever happened to him. PERIOD!


Barking up the wrong tree, dude. I was never a Kobe fan. Hated his jacking and poor shot selection. Always a Laker fan, however. Not an LBJ fan either. I’ve always seen AD as a future Laker and now he is. Historically elite level defender, on the all time list of big man defenders. Can also put up 40-15-5-5 on any given good night.

One thing about Kobe, he gave a damn. I know, it’s one game. But that one game reminded me an awful lot of last season’s complacency and indifference on defense from LeGroin. Like it’s below him. At least Kobe gave his all in every game.
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#18 » by stan francisco » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:09 pm

nzahir wrote:
stan francisco wrote:
lazybatman wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:

The damn stats..


Eye test says that grimacing, flexing and lowering your eye brows after an impressive play doesn’t equal badass. It equals acting like one. This, while Kawhi balled full out and got the win. Why didn’t he guard KL. It should be personal!

To me, that **** is the same as if tiger woods would’ve pumped his fist after a two inch gimme. Dunking is easy for LeBron.

Lol kobe at the end of his career was a poor defender. The nostalgia is pretty funny


See my reply to your buddy above. Wrong tree to bark up. Never was a Kobe homer. At least he wasn’t a poser.

LBJ is so extremely gifted physically. It’s a shame to see him choose not to play defense. Maybe it’s the knees...?
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#19 » by nzahir » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:38 pm

stan francisco wrote:
nzahir wrote:
stan francisco wrote:
Eye test says that grimacing, flexing and lowering your eye brows after an impressive play doesn’t equal badass. It equals acting like one. This, while Kawhi balled full out and got the win. Why didn’t he guard KL. It should be personal!

To me, that **** is the same as if tiger woods would’ve pumped his fist after a two inch gimme. Dunking is easy for LeBron.

Lol kobe at the end of his career was a poor defender. The nostalgia is pretty funny


See my reply to your buddy above. Wrong tree to bark up. Never was a Kobe homer. At least he wasn’t a poser.

LBJ is so extremely gifted physically. It’s a shame to see him choose not to play defense. Maybe it’s the knees...?

The way people rate him though makes is ridiculous, his best effort at his older age wasn't good enough consistently

Lebron has played good d the last 2 nights. And its not like Kawhi is playing 82 games of elite d vs the other teams best stars

DO you want Lebron to be more fresh and less chance of an injury or give some more effort in reg szn that wont be the biggest difference.

Better O>Better D anyways. Some of the shots kawhi makes is unbelievable and Lebron has such a huge role on offense. The 2nd best ball handler is rajon rondo lol

Kawhi has Lou and PG
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Re: Lebron+AD Pick n' roll hidden from the Clippers - Game Theory or just great defense 

Post#20 » by thebigbird » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:59 am

stan francisco wrote:
nzahir wrote:
stan francisco wrote:
Eye test says that grimacing, flexing and lowering your eye brows after an impressive play doesn’t equal badass. It equals acting like one. This, while Kawhi balled full out and got the win. Why didn’t he guard KL. It should be personal!

To me, that **** is the same as if tiger woods would’ve pumped his fist after a two inch gimme. Dunking is easy for LeBron.

Lol kobe at the end of his career was a poor defender. The nostalgia is pretty funny


See my reply to your buddy above. Wrong tree to bark up. Never was a Kobe homer. At least he wasn’t a poser.

LBJ is so extremely gifted physically. It’s a shame to see him choose not to play defense. Maybe it’s the knees...?

LeBron has actually played really well on defense in the first two games. He's extremely gifted physically, but he's also in his 17th season. The vast majority of hall of famers were already retired by their 17th seasons. Yet LeBron is still arguably the best player in the NBA, top 5 at worst. He's not going to be able to go 100% every day like he could 10 years ago. It just is what it is.

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