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The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in?

Moderators: TyCobb, Kilroy, Danny Darko

should Caruso start? is Dwight forgiven?

Poll runs till Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:20 am

yes, Caruso should start.
18
19%
yes, Dwight is aaight.
26
28%
no, Caruso belongs in the G-league
5
5%
no, Dwight is soft
1
1%
i'm in the Carushow and Dwight bandwagon
15
16%
I need a bigger sample size
24
26%
no, I will never jump on the bandwagon
4
4%
 
Total votes: 93

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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#21 » by mighty_duck » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:29 pm

Caruso is neither a starter nor a G-League player. He's a role player, who may get lots of minutes some games if he's hot, we have injuries, or the match-ups are right.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#22 » by Pythagoras » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:56 pm

At this point the Caruso thing feels like confirmation bias. People have convinced themselves that Caruso is not supposed to be a high level contributor at the NBA level, and so when they watch games they tell themselves he's not all that good. All of the actual statistical evidence points to the team being better with him on the floor.

Of course, even if you're not into statistics, I don't know how anyone can watch all of our guards play and not come away with the idea that Caruso is the best defender. KCP is close, but he's not as athletic nor does he give consistent effort on that end. Green is close as well but he's just not quite as athletic. That's where a large part of his value lies. He's good enough defensively that he'd have to be completely hopeless on the offensive end to not be able to have a positive impact. Thankfully, he's not hopeless offensively, he's adequate, and that's why he consistently impacts the games.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#23 » by SlimShady83 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:13 pm

snaquille oatmeal wrote:
SlimShady83 wrote:Keep Dwight on the bench, I bet he will be mad and start too lose it and show his true colours. Let's wait for the half the season and see how he goes.

But yes on the white mamba

You got it wrong, it’s the bald mamba


Nah I'm right :)
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#24 » by dAdo dA dEvil » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:27 am

I said before that I could only forgive Dwight if we win it all this season. Anyways, I would like him to review Rodman's game. Dwight is a defensive player like Rodman and if he could learn how Rodman plays D and rebounding Dwight could still make a difference in the game. Plus, Dwight could score more from put backs and lobs.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#25 » by Ball so hard » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:52 am

iamworthy wrote:I don't understand the Caruso love fest.


I don't get it either. It's as ridiculous to think he should start as it is to think he belongs in the G League. Ever so often there's this rather peculiar obsession with fringe players on our roster.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#26 » by Ball so hard » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:17 am

Pythagoras wrote:At this point the Caruso thing feels like confirmation bias. People have convinced themselves that Caruso is not supposed to be a high level contributor at the NBA level, and so when they watch games they tell themselves he's not all that good. All of the actual statistical evidence points to the team being better with him on the floor.

Of course, even if you're not into statistics, I don't know how anyone can watch all of our guards play and not come away with the idea that Caruso is the best defender. KCP is close, but he's not as athletic nor does he give consistent effort on that end. Green is close as well but he's just not quite as athletic. That's where a large part of his value lies. He's good enough defensively that he'd have to be completely hopeless on the offensive end to not be able to have a positive impact. Thankfully, he's not hopeless offensively, he's adequate, and that's why he consistently impacts the games.


It's interesting you mention confirmation bias then went on to highlight stats that are largely misleading. I know it's like beating a dead horse, but I'll nonetheless give it another try. The stats you and other Caruso proponents are using are limited. Your entire argument is based on stats from approximately a third of the season, a season in which he primarily played against scrubs; this is by definition confirmation bias. Stats without context is virtually meaningless.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#27 » by Landsberger » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:52 am

Ball so hard wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:At this point the Caruso thing feels like confirmation bias. People have convinced themselves that Caruso is not supposed to be a high level contributor at the NBA level, and so when they watch games they tell themselves he's not all that good. All of the actual statistical evidence points to the team being better with him on the floor.

Of course, even if you're not into statistics, I don't know how anyone can watch all of our guards play and not come away with the idea that Caruso is the best defender. KCP is close, but he's not as athletic nor does he give consistent effort on that end. Green is close as well but he's just not quite as athletic. That's where a large part of his value lies. He's good enough defensively that he'd have to be completely hopeless on the offensive end to not be able to have a positive impact. Thankfully, he's not hopeless offensively, he's adequate, and that's why he consistently impacts the games.


It's interesting you mention confirmation bias then went on to highlight stats that are largely misleading. I know it's like beating a dead horse, but I'll nonetheless give it another try. The stats you and other Caruso proponents are using are limited. Your entire argument is based on stats from approximately a third of the season, a season in which he primarily played against scrubs; this is by definition confirmation bias. Stats without context is virtually meaningless.


Stats are misleading when you try and use them predictively.... There is no statistical correlation to last years variables that created the stats often used to predict a players value this year. Thus is the problem with "advanced stats" when used to project a players value. Without the same variables in place there is no way to predict the same outcome.

Our support crew, including Caruso, will show themselves to be largely inconsistent.... that's why they are a support crew. We have enough of these similar guys that we should get exactly what we've gotten in 3 games. One of them playing at a high level which is about all we'll need.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#28 » by Pythagoras » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:16 am

Ball so hard wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:At this point the Caruso thing feels like confirmation bias. People have convinced themselves that Caruso is not supposed to be a high level contributor at the NBA level, and so when they watch games they tell themselves he's not all that good. All of the actual statistical evidence points to the team being better with him on the floor.

Of course, even if you're not into statistics, I don't know how anyone can watch all of our guards play and not come away with the idea that Caruso is the best defender. KCP is close, but he's not as athletic nor does he give consistent effort on that end. Green is close as well but he's just not quite as athletic. That's where a large part of his value lies. He's good enough defensively that he'd have to be completely hopeless on the offensive end to not be able to have a positive impact. Thankfully, he's not hopeless offensively, he's adequate, and that's why he consistently impacts the games.


It's interesting you mention confirmation bias then went on to highlight stats that are largely misleading. I know it's like beating a dead horse, but I'll nonetheless give it another try. The stats you and other Caruso proponents are using are limited. Your entire argument is based on stats from approximately a third of the season, a season in which he primarily played against scrubs; this is by definition confirmation bias. Stats without context is virtually meaningless.


Ah yes, the old he played good only against scrubs argument. You know I was pretty sure this argument was bunk, but nonetheless I just decided to pick a good guard in the West to check myself. Let’s do Lou Williams, since he torched us in the first game:

Here were Lou’s stats against us when Caruso wasn’t on the floor last year:

56.9 FG%, +4.3 in 25.9 mpg in 4 games

When Caruso was on the floor, Lou’s stats:

33.3 FG%, -0.3 in 9.7 mpg in 3 games

So you want to tell me why these stats don’t matter either? Or let’s try another way, outside of Danny Green, you tell which our current crop of guards deserves more pt than Caruso?
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#29 » by SlimShady83 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:29 am

Pythagoras wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:At this point the Caruso thing feels like confirmation bias. People have convinced themselves that Caruso is not supposed to be a high level contributor at the NBA level, and so when they watch games they tell themselves he's not all that good. All of the actual statistical evidence points to the team being better with him on the floor.

Of course, even if you're not into statistics, I don't know how anyone can watch all of our guards play and not come away with the idea that Caruso is the best defender. KCP is close, but he's not as athletic nor does he give consistent effort on that end. Green is close as well but he's just not quite as athletic. That's where a large part of his value lies. He's good enough defensively that he'd have to be completely hopeless on the offensive end to not be able to have a positive impact. Thankfully, he's not hopeless offensively, he's adequate, and that's why he consistently impacts the games.


It's interesting you mention confirmation bias then went on to highlight stats that are largely misleading. I know it's like beating a dead horse, but I'll nonetheless give it another try. The stats you and other Caruso proponents are using are limited. Your entire argument is based on stats from approximately a third of the season, a season in which he primarily played against scrubs; this is by definition confirmation bias. Stats without context is virtually meaningless.


Ah yes, the old he played good only against scrubs argument. You know I was pretty sure this argument was bunk, but nonetheless I just decided to pick a good guard in the West to check myself. Let’s do Lou Williams, since he torched us in the first game:

Here were Lou’s stats against us when Caruso wasn’t on the floor last year:

56.9 FG%, +4.3 in 25.9 mpg in 4 games

When Caruso was on the floor, Lou’s stats:




33.3 FG%, -0.3 in 9.7 mpg in 3 games

So you want to tell me why these stats don’t matter either? Or let’s try another way, outside of Danny Green, you tell which our current crop of guards deserves more pt than Caruso?


:nod: :nod: :nod: :hoop: :reporter:
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#30 » by evilpimp972 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:30 am

What the hell is the Caruso love fest?

It's just common sense. You have Caruso competing with Avery Bradley (who I would put ahead), Cook (worst defender of the team), Rondo (One of the worst impact player in the league)...

The Caruso haters are on full force here. No one is saying he's a legit PG or something, just that he brings more to the table than those guys. Oh, and stop boxcore watching.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#31 » by stan francisco » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:29 pm

iamworthy wrote:I don't understand the Caruso love fest.


Effort level and defense and underdogness is what the love fest is all about. And his haircut.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#32 » by Gus McCrae » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:40 pm

I don’t want to promote Dwight too early. He’s great in his humbled role, my concern is he starts believing he’s a star and reverts to his “wanting to post up” ways. Let’s keep him right where he is. I would, however, like to see Caruso and Bradley as the starting back court. Caruso makes the right plays, is unselfish, is athletic (!) and hustles, plus he can hit the open shot. He’s a great fit.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#33 » by Ball so hard » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:05 pm

Pythagoras wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:At this point the Caruso thing feels like confirmation bias. People have convinced themselves that Caruso is not supposed to be a high level contributor at the NBA level, and so when they watch games they tell themselves he's not all that good. All of the actual statistical evidence points to the team being better with him on the floor.

Of course, even if you're not into statistics, I don't know how anyone can watch all of our guards play and not come away with the idea that Caruso is the best defender. KCP is close, but he's not as athletic nor does he give consistent effort on that end. Green is close as well but he's just not quite as athletic. That's where a large part of his value lies. He's good enough defensively that he'd have to be completely hopeless on the offensive end to not be able to have a positive impact. Thankfully, he's not hopeless offensively, he's adequate, and that's why he consistently impacts the games.


It's interesting you mention confirmation bias then went on to highlight stats that are largely misleading. I know it's like beating a dead horse, but I'll nonetheless give it another try. The stats you and other Caruso proponents are using are limited. Your entire argument is based on stats from approximately a third of the season, a season in which he primarily played against scrubs; this is by definition confirmation bias. Stats without context is virtually meaningless.


Ah yes, the old he played good only against scrubs argument. You know I was pretty sure this argument was bunk, but nonetheless I just decided to pick a good guard in the West to check myself. Let’s do Lou Williams, since he torched us in the first game:

Here were Lou’s stats against us when Caruso wasn’t on the floor last year:

56.9 FG%, +4.3 in 25.9 mpg in 4 games

When Caruso was on the floor, Lou’s stats:

33.3 FG%, -0.3 in 9.7 mpg in 3 games

So you want to tell me why these stats don’t matter either? Or let’s try another way, outside of Danny Green, you tell which our current crop of guards deserves more pt than Caruso?


Again, you continue to post misleading stats. Do you know what a sample size is, or do you not care what a sample size is?

Causo played in 3 games against the Clipper last year as you correctly noted. He played 38, 5, and 1 minute, respectively. Caruso was matched up against Lou for a total of 3.17 min... let that sink in for a minute. A quick review of an analysis I did in another thread shows he was actually a net negative while defending Lou. Lou's fg% was also excellent while being guarded by Caruso. However, fg% is largely meaningless here given the extremely small sample size. Full disclosure: the analysis is based on individual stats and not team based stats. The stats you're using is based on the overall team performance...using this approach can be very tricky IMO and often reveal information that simply doesn't make much sense. For example, Korver was rated pretty well last year in terms of DRPM; he was rated well above some players who are clearly better on defense.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#34 » by evilpimp972 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:18 pm

Ball so hard wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
It's interesting you mention confirmation bias then went on to highlight stats that are largely misleading. I know it's like beating a dead horse, but I'll nonetheless give it another try. The stats you and other Caruso proponents are using are limited. Your entire argument is based on stats from approximately a third of the season, a season in which he primarily played against scrubs; this is by definition confirmation bias. Stats without context is virtually meaningless.


Ah yes, the old he played good only against scrubs argument. You know I was pretty sure this argument was bunk, but nonetheless I just decided to pick a good guard in the West to check myself. Let’s do Lou Williams, since he torched us in the first game:

Here were Lou’s stats against us when Caruso wasn’t on the floor last year:

56.9 FG%, +4.3 in 25.9 mpg in 4 games

When Caruso was on the floor, Lou’s stats:

33.3 FG%, -0.3 in 9.7 mpg in 3 games

So you want to tell me why these stats don’t matter either? Or let’s try another way, outside of Danny Green, you tell which our current crop of guards deserves more pt than Caruso?


Again, you continue to post misleading stats. Do you know what a sample size is, or do you not care what a sample size is?

Causo played in 3 games against the Clipper last year as you correctly noted. He played 38, 5, and 1 minute, respectively. Caruso was matched up against Lou for a total of 3.17 min... let that sink in for a minute. A quick review of an analysis I did in another thread shows he was actually a net negative while defending Lou. Lou's fg% was also excellent while being guarded by Caruso. However, fg% is largely meaningless here given the extremely small sample size. Full disclosure: the analysis is based on individual stats and not team based stats. The stats you're using is based on the overall team performance...using this approach can be very tricky IMO and often reveal information that simply doesn't make much sense. For example, Korver was rated pretty well last year in terms of DRPM; he was rated well above some players who are clearly better on defense.

Fact is this year he hasn't played against any back up so I'm not sure what games you are watching.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#35 » by Ball so hard » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:24 pm

Landsberger wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:At this point the Caruso thing feels like confirmation bias. People have convinced themselves that Caruso is not supposed to be a high level contributor at the NBA level, and so when they watch games they tell themselves he's not all that good. All of the actual statistical evidence points to the team being better with him on the floor.

Of course, even if you're not into statistics, I don't know how anyone can watch all of our guards play and not come away with the idea that Caruso is the best defender. KCP is close, but he's not as athletic nor does he give consistent effort on that end. Green is close as well but he's just not quite as athletic. That's where a large part of his value lies. He's good enough defensively that he'd have to be completely hopeless on the offensive end to not be able to have a positive impact. Thankfully, he's not hopeless offensively, he's adequate, and that's why he consistently impacts the games.


It's interesting you mention confirmation bias then went on to highlight stats that are largely misleading. I know it's like beating a dead horse, but I'll nonetheless give it another try. The stats you and other Caruso proponents are using are limited. Your entire argument is based on stats from approximately a third of the season, a season in which he primarily played against scrubs; this is by definition confirmation bias. Stats without context is virtually meaningless.


Stats are misleading when you try and use them predictively.... There is no statistical correlation to last years variables that created the stats often used to predict a players value this year. Thus is the problem with "advanced stats" when used to project a players value. Without the same variables in place there is no way to predict the same outcome.

Our support crew, including Caruso, will show themselves to be largely inconsistent.... that's why they are a support crew. We have enough of these similar guys that we should get exactly what we've gotten in 3 games. One of them playing at a high level which is about all we'll need.


Generally agree, though I wouldn't go as far as to say there's no statistical correlation to last years variables.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#36 » by Ball so hard » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:25 pm

evilpimp972 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:
Ah yes, the old he played good only against scrubs argument. You know I was pretty sure this argument was bunk, but nonetheless I just decided to pick a good guard in the West to check myself. Let’s do Lou Williams, since he torched us in the first game:

Here were Lou’s stats against us when Caruso wasn’t on the floor last year:

56.9 FG%, +4.3 in 25.9 mpg in 4 games

When Caruso was on the floor, Lou’s stats:

33.3 FG%, -0.3 in 9.7 mpg in 3 games

So you want to tell me why these stats don’t matter either? Or let’s try another way, outside of Danny Green, you tell which our current crop of guards deserves more pt than Caruso?


Again, you continue to post misleading stats. Do you know what a sample size is, or do you not care what a sample size is?

Causo played in 3 games against the Clipper last year as you correctly noted. He played 38, 5, and 1 minute, respectively. Caruso was matched up against Lou for a total of 3.17 min... let that sink in for a minute. A quick review of an analysis I did in another thread shows he was actually a net negative while defending Lou. Lou's fg% was also excellent while being guarded by Caruso. However, fg% is largely meaningless here given the extremely small sample size. Full disclosure: the analysis is based on individual stats and not team based stats. The stats you're using is based on the overall team performance...using this approach can be very tricky IMO and often reveal information that simply doesn't make much sense. For example, Korver was rated pretty well last year in terms of DRPM; he was rated well above some players who are clearly better on defense.

Fact is this year he hasn't played against any back up so I'm not sure what games you are watching.


I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#37 » by evilpimp972 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 pm

Ball so hard wrote:
evilpimp972 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
Again, you continue to post misleading stats. Do you know what a sample size is, or do you not care what a sample size is?

Causo played in 3 games against the Clipper last year as you correctly noted. He played 38, 5, and 1 minute, respectively. Caruso was matched up against Lou for a total of 3.17 min... let that sink in for a minute. A quick review of an analysis I did in another thread shows he was actually a net negative while defending Lou. Lou's fg% was also excellent while being guarded by Caruso. However, fg% is largely meaningless here given the extremely small sample size. Full disclosure: the analysis is based on individual stats and not team based stats. The stats you're using is based on the overall team performance...using this approach can be very tricky IMO and often reveal information that simply doesn't make much sense. For example, Korver was rated pretty well last year in terms of DRPM; he was rated well above some players who are clearly better on defense.

Fact is this year he hasn't played against any back up so I'm not sure what games you are watching.


I have no idea what you're talking about.

You're the one who said his stats were that good because he played vs backups
Well this year his impacts stats have been absurd and he played mostly vs starters.
Next question?
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#38 » by Ball so hard » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:50 pm

evilpimp972 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
evilpimp972 wrote:Fact is this year he hasn't played against any back up so I'm not sure what games you are watching.


I have no idea what you're talking about.

You're the one who said his stats were that good because he played vs backups
Well this year his impacts stats have been absurd and he played mostly vs starters.
Next question?


:banghead: :banghead:

I really don't know what's so hard to understand. You simply shouldn't use an insignificant sample size to argue for or against a player. You haven't refuted a thing I said. You are tacitly trying to move the goalpost. You and other Caruso supporters are claiming his stats are so great and therefore he should start. The onus is on you to prove why he should start... your response is likely, "look how great his stats are."
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#39 » by evilpimp972 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:25 pm

Ball so hard wrote:
evilpimp972 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
I have no idea what you're talking about.

You're the one who said his stats were that good because he played vs backups
Well this year his impacts stats have been absurd and he played mostly vs starters.
Next question?


:banghead: :banghead:

I really don't know what's so hard to understand. You simply shouldn't use an insignificant sample size to argue for or against a player. You haven't refuted a thing I said. You are tacitly trying to move the goalpost. You and other Caruso supporters are claiming his stats are so great and therefore he should start. The onus is on you to prove why he should start... your response is likely, "look how great his stats are."

Not even close. I'm not saying he should start.
I've responded to your claim that the sample size is against scrubs, which is a non fact. If you meant that he played "meaningless games" last year okay, but he didn't play scrubs.
I don't need sample size to know that he's a better defender than Cook or Rondo. For Rondo, it's been multiple years of him being one of the worst players in the league.
I'm not even using stats but watching the games as the stats for Caruso aren't that great. The little things he does is what we all should you like. Sorry if he's not fishing for assist like Rajon
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Re: The Dwight redemption and Caruso to start @ the 1 bandwagons, you in? 

Post#40 » by Ball so hard » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:07 pm

evilpimp972 wrote:
Ball so hard wrote:
evilpimp972 wrote:You're the one who said his stats were that good because he played vs backups
Well this year his impacts stats have been absurd and he played mostly vs starters.
Next question?


:banghead: :banghead:

I really don't know what's so hard to understand. You simply shouldn't use an insignificant sample size to argue for or against a player. You haven't refuted a thing I said. You are tacitly trying to move the goalpost. You and other Caruso supporters are claiming his stats are so great and therefore he should start. The onus is on you to prove why he should start... your response is likely, "look how great his stats are."

Not even close. I'm not saying he should start.
I've responded to your claim that the sample size is against scrubs, which is a non fact. If you meant that he played "meaningless games" last year okay, but he didn't play scrubs.
I don't need sample size to know that he's a better defender than Cook or Rondo. For Rondo, it's been multiple years of him being one of the worst players in the league.
I'm not even using stats but watching the games as the stats for Caruso aren't that great. The little things he does is what we all should you like. Sorry if he's not fishing for assist like Rajon


Do you have any proof to support your claim? I have proof to support mine.

I said he primarily competed against scrubs... this might've been a slight exaggeration on my part. He did in fact play a majority of his minutes against non starters.

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