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Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET

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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#201 » by thebigbird » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:59 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote: Rondo isn't getting minutes because of his play, he's getting minutes because of locker room politics. They don't want to make AD mad, and they know that Rondo will become a locker room cancer if he doesn't get the role he wants like he did in Dallas, Sacramento, and Chicago. So they're playing him to the detriment of the team.


You know this to be true? How?

Nah, just an educated guess given what we've seen on the court and know about Rondo. I see no other reason why he'd be getting as many minutes as he has been otherwise.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#202 » by danfantastk32 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:07 pm

thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote: Rondo isn't getting minutes because of his play, he's getting minutes because of locker room politics. They don't want to make AD mad, and they know that Rondo will become a locker room cancer if he doesn't get the role he wants like he did in Dallas, Sacramento, and Chicago. So they're playing him to the detriment of the team.


You know this to be true? How?

Nah, just an educated guess given what we've seen on the court and know about Rondo. I see no other reason why he'd be getting as many minutes as he has been otherwise.


Well, we don't really have a great crew of PG's at our disposal. And he's the 'veteran presence' out there. I'll throw my stats into the fray here......and I see Caruso rockin a 9.15 per.....which is like Ingram's brutal rookie season type per. Rondo has a 15-something per.

Seems like playing Caruso would be the detriment, if we want to go purely stat-based. Throw in that fact that there might be a little bit of politics / pecking-order / familiarity with Rondo and AD, and I don't know why we'd do anything else.

This is the issue with having 2-3 guys who gobble up the bulk of a team's salary. You're stuck putting band-aids on the holes in your squad.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#203 » by thebigbird » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:13 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
You know this to be true? How?

Nah, just an educated guess given what we've seen on the court and know about Rondo. I see no other reason why he'd be getting as many minutes as he has been otherwise.


Well, we don't really have a great crew of PG's at our disposal. And he's the 'veteran presence' out there. I'll throw my stats into the fray here......and I see Caruso rockin a 9.15 per.....which is like Ingram's brutal rookie season type per. Rondo has a 15-something per.

Seems like playing Caruso would be the detriment, if we want to go purely stat-based. Throw in that fact that there might be a little bit of politics / pecking-order / familiarity with Rondo and AD, and I don't know why we'd do anything else.

This is the issue with having 2-3 guys who gobble up the bulk of a team's salary. You're stuck putting band-aids on the holes in your squad.

Rondo's "veteran presence" got him thrown out of Friday's game. Caruso has a 6.8 net rating, higher than Rondo. He also has good size at 6'5 and is playing meaningful minutes for the first time in his career. All things considered, he's doing pretty well. Cook also has a much better net rating than Rondo. We'd be better off with either playing instead of Rondo.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#204 » by danfantastk32 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:31 pm

thebigbird wrote:Caruso has a 6.8 net rating, higher than Rondo. He also has good size at 6'5 and is playing meaningful minutes for the first time in his career. All things considered, he's doing pretty well. Cook also has a much better net rating than Rondo. We'd be better off with either playing instead of Rondo.


Quinn's rockin a paltry 9.63 per as well. MY stats say Rondo is the better choice. By a large margin.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#205 » by thebigbird » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:38 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:Caruso has a 6.8 net rating, higher than Rondo. He also has good size at 6'5 and is playing meaningful minutes for the first time in his career. All things considered, he's doing pretty well. Cook also has a much better net rating than Rondo. We'd be better off with either playing instead of Rondo.


Quinn's rockin a paltry 9.63 per as well. MY stats say Rondo is the better choice. By a large margin.

No one uses PER, lol. Boban Marjanovic has a higher career PER than Kareem. Guess he's the better choice too.

If you want to use PER as the end all be all then Rondo is better than Danny Green, KCP, Kuzma, and Avery Bradley too. I dont think you'd find anyone who agrees with you on that.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#206 » by Sedale Threatt » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:06 pm

thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:Caruso has a 6.8 net rating, higher than Rondo. He also has good size at 6'5 and is playing meaningful minutes for the first time in his career. All things considered, he's doing pretty well. Cook also has a much better net rating than Rondo. We'd be better off with either playing instead of Rondo.


Quinn's rockin a paltry 9.63 per as well. MY stats say Rondo is the better choice. By a large margin.

No one uses PER, lol. Boban Marjanovic has a higher career PER than Kareem. Guess he's the better choice too.

If you want to use PER as the end all be all then Rondo is better than Danny Green, KCP, Kuzma, and Avery Bradley too. I dont think you'd find anyone who agrees with you on that.


I use PER. :oops:

Or at least, I like it. The frustrating thing about hoops is that it's not a static game like baseball, where you can nail down pretty much everything that takes place. So, as much as I appreciate advanced stats, you do have to take them with a grain of salt. Like on/off and net ratings: I like those too, but there's a school of thought that it's so noisy, even when adjusted, that you can only get an accurate picture from using multi-season increments. So they've obviously got their flaws as well. (For example: We're currently plus 10.4/100 when AD is OFF the court, and I don't think anyone here wouldn't play him for 48 minutes if they could.)

But getting back to PER, I do think it has some value given that the players who lead the league are invariably, with a couple of exceptions, are pretty much exactly the ones you'd think. Put another way: If you have a measurement that has players like Wilt, Kareem, Jordan and LeBron annually leading, then you're headed in the right direction. Without an end-all, be-all measurement like WAR or WHIP, it's just another piece to help form a composite. And I will always take that over the "eye test" or pulling stuff out of our ass based on subjective biases.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#207 » by danfantastk32 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:10 pm

*sigh* Yeah yeah.....and Nance has better net rating than Kobe.

I believe this is the issue Landsberger was making, about getting too tied to stats. There's a stat for everyone, that tells you what you want to hear...when you want to hear it.

You don't want Rondo to play. Got it.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#208 » by danfantastk32 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:20 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
I use PER. :oops:

Or at least, I like it. The frustrating thing about hoops is that it's not a static game like baseball, where you can nail down pretty much everything that takes place.


Nothing wrong with a little PER =0)

It's the issue with Stats: Net rating can be hugely affected by a not so good player playing against the bench, and playing along side Lebron. Meanwhile that same guy might have a low PER because he's letting AD and Lebron do the scoring and rebounding. Meanwhile someone who comes in when Lebron sits, will prob get more shots...and more of the action. But maybe a lower Rating.

It's funny....because I do mainly what you do: I scroll down the leaders of 'said stat'....and when you see Jordan, Magic, Barkley, Kareem, Bird, Duncan, Lebron, etc....you know it's a fairly decent indicator.

In other words: it passes the eye test!!
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#209 » by thebigbird » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:22 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:*sigh* Yeah yeah.....and Nance has better net rating than Kobe.

I believe this is the issue Landsberger was making, about getting too tied to stats. There's a stat for everyone, that tells you what you want to hear...when you want to hear it.

You don't want Rondo to play. Got it.

The only year that Kobe and Nance played together was Kobe's last season, when he was a really bad player who just took a ton of shots every game. So, it shouldn't be surprising that Nance had a better net rating than Kobe that year. Surely you can come up with a better argument against the statistic than that.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#210 » by danfantastk32 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:26 pm

thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:*sigh* Yeah yeah.....and Nance has better net rating than Kobe.

I believe this is the issue Landsberger was making, about getting too tied to stats. There's a stat for everyone, that tells you what you want to hear...when you want to hear it.

You don't want Rondo to play. Got it.

The only year that Kobe and Nance played together was Kobe's last season, when he was a really bad player who just took a ton of shots every game. So, it shouldn't be surprising that Nance had a better net rating than Kobe that year. Surely you can come up with a better argument against the statistic than that.


Oh....did someone attach a year to that stat? I certainly didn't.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#211 » by thebigbird » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:29 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
Quinn's rockin a paltry 9.63 per as well. MY stats say Rondo is the better choice. By a large margin.

No one uses PER, lol. Boban Marjanovic has a higher career PER than Kareem. Guess he's the better choice too.

If you want to use PER as the end all be all then Rondo is better than Danny Green, KCP, Kuzma, and Avery Bradley too. I dont think you'd find anyone who agrees with you on that.


I use PER. :oops:

Or at least, I like it. The frustrating thing about hoops is that it's not a static game like baseball, where you can nail down pretty much everything that takes place. So, as much as I appreciate advanced stats, you do have to take them with a grain of salt. Like on/off and net ratings: I like those too, but there's a school of thought that it's so noisy, even when adjusted, that you can only get an accurate picture from using multi-season increments. So they've obviously got their flaws as well. (For example: We're currently plus 10.4/100 when AD is OFF the court, and I don't think anyone here wouldn't play him for 48 minutes if they could.)

But getting back to PER, I do think it has some value given that the players who lead the league are invariably, with a couple of exceptions, are pretty much exactly the ones you'd think. Put another way: If you have a measurement that has players like Wilt, Kareem, Jordan and LeBron annually leading, then you're headed in the right direction. Without an end-all, be-all measurement like WAR or WHIP, it's just another piece to help form a composite. And I will always take that over the "eye test" or pulling stuff out of our ass based on subjective biases.

PER has its place and isn't completely useless, but it is mostly measures offense. So when you're using it on a guy like Rondo it doesn't factor in his defense, which is a big negative of his game. A guy like Avery Bradley only has a PER of 10.6, but his impact on the team has been huge this season. PER gets it right with the stars, but I'm not sold on its usefulness when evaluating role players. For example, Andre Igoudola had a sub-15 PER for each of the last 6 seasons with Golden State and 4 of 6 postseasons, but he was obviously one of their most important players.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#212 » by thebigbird » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:31 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:*sigh* Yeah yeah.....and Nance has better net rating than Kobe.

I believe this is the issue Landsberger was making, about getting too tied to stats. There's a stat for everyone, that tells you what you want to hear...when you want to hear it.

You don't want Rondo to play. Got it.

The only year that Kobe and Nance played together was Kobe's last season, when he was a really bad player who just took a ton of shots every game. So, it shouldn't be surprising that Nance had a better net rating than Kobe that year. Surely you can come up with a better argument against the statistic than that.


Oh....did someone attach a year to that stat? I certainly didn't.

It's implied because it wouldn't make any sense to look at players' net ratings when they were playing on different teams and try to draw conclusions from them. And advanced statistics have never been kind to Kobe.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#213 » by Pythagoras » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:52 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
ROballer wrote:Check the trade and transactions thread.
We can't do it on our own, yes...but it can be done with a 3rd team.


Why do we want a grumpy over-the-hill PG who's A) Convinced he is the one who knows how to win a title. B) Is a GUARANTEE to get injured when the moment really matters, and C) is leading his team down the toilet? How's he so good?

Does this trade and transactions thread have a list of teams who want to do the Lakers a solid? Not that they'd be doing a solid tbh. But that aside.....I'm looking at Hoopshype team salaries, and I see only one team who might be under the cap (number 30 is Atlanta at $108 mil in salary this season....im not totally sure if that even is under the cap). Either way, they most certainly will be over the cap getting him, as will we (we already are) so that trade needs to be 80-85%, to my understanding. That would be about $30 mil we'd have to lose.

Danny Green, KCP, remainder of Deng, Rondo. <--------that gets it done. Honestly....it's hard to imagine what heap of rubbish any team is gonna pile up to equal $30 mil. OKC is gonna want some picks. Thats for sure.

Seems impossible to come up with any sort of realistic deal. And all that so we get this frumpy little guy who's gonna tell Lebron how it needs to work. I'll pass.


A grumpy over the hill point guard? Like say... Rondo??? CP3 would occupy the same role with the Lakers that he had in Houston. Be the secondary ball handler to Lebron when they’re on the court together, and run the show when Lebron is off the court, just like he did with Harden. We KNOW he can occupy this role, as we just saw him do it for two years in Houston. It’s the role Rondo is currently failing at.

It took one of the greatest teams ever assembled 7 games to knock that Houston team off two years ago, and 6 games last year. And that team didn’t have an added weapon in AD like this team has. You’d just need to load manage CP3. Only thing is I don’t know that there’s a path to a realistic trade.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#214 » by Sedale Threatt » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:59 pm

thebigbird wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:
thebigbird wrote:No one uses PER, lol. Boban Marjanovic has a higher career PER than Kareem. Guess he's the better choice too.

If you want to use PER as the end all be all then Rondo is better than Danny Green, KCP, Kuzma, and Avery Bradley too. I dont think you'd find anyone who agrees with you on that.


I use PER. :oops:

Or at least, I like it. The frustrating thing about hoops is that it's not a static game like baseball, where you can nail down pretty much everything that takes place. So, as much as I appreciate advanced stats, you do have to take them with a grain of salt. Like on/off and net ratings: I like those too, but there's a school of thought that it's so noisy, even when adjusted, that you can only get an accurate picture from using multi-season increments. So they've obviously got their flaws as well. (For example: We're currently plus 10.4/100 when AD is OFF the court, and I don't think anyone here wouldn't play him for 48 minutes if they could.)

But getting back to PER, I do think it has some value given that the players who lead the league are invariably, with a couple of exceptions, are pretty much exactly the ones you'd think. Put another way: If you have a measurement that has players like Wilt, Kareem, Jordan and LeBron annually leading, then you're headed in the right direction. Without an end-all, be-all measurement like WAR or WHIP, it's just another piece to help form a composite. And I will always take that over the "eye test" or pulling stuff out of our ass based on subjective biases.

PER has its place and isn't completely useless, but it is mostly measures offense. So when you're using it on a guy like Rondo it doesn't factor in his defense, which is a big negative of his game. A guy like Avery Bradley only has a PER of 10.6, but his impact on the team has been huge this season. PER gets it right with the stars, but I'm not sold on its usefulness when evaluating role players. For example, Andre Igoudola had a sub-15 PER for each of the last 6 seasons with Golden State and 4 of 6 postseasons, but he was obviously one of their most important players.


For sure. Danny Green's another one. Which is why I brought up the notion of a composite. Until we get an end-all, be-all measure of complete impact, which I don't think will ever exist, you just have to take all these pieces and put them together. With somebody like Rondo, you start off with a 15.1 PER and you're thinking, hey, even though he's shooting like sh*t, that's not bad! Then you start moving across the column to OBPM, DBPM, VORP and see that he's clearly not a positive player. So overall, his assessment is pretty meh. While the vitriol he gets might be a little over the top -- personal bias alert: I just don't like him very much -- why anyone is dying on a hill for this guy is pretty head-scratchy.

The one thing I will say in his defense is that, given our resources, we weren't reasonably going to be able to do much better. This is always the team we were going to have: LeBron, Davis, and a bunch of spare parts.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#215 » by Sedale Threatt » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:02 pm

Side note: Glancing at various measures, it's clear that LeBron is absolutely carrying us on offense. Like, if he's not involved we're pretty much in the toilet. While this is certainly a thing he can do, I don't know how sustainable that is.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#216 » by Pythagoras » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:23 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:Side note: Glancing at various measures, it's clear that LeBron is absolutely carrying us on offense. Like, if he's not involved we're pretty much in the toilet. While this is certainly a thing he can do, I don't know how sustainable that is.


This is why if there’s ANY path to us grabbing a solid guard, like a Teague or Dragic, (or pipe dream CP3), we should be all over it. That would go a long way to alleviating Lebron’s load during the season, so he can go thermonuclear destroyer in the playoffs.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#217 » by danfantastk32 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:56 pm

Pythagoras wrote:A grumpy over the hill point guard? Like say... Rondo???


Yeah....we have Rondo. We're not gonna just 'get' CP3. Your gonna have to dump a ton of talent to get him. And for what?
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#218 » by danfantastk32 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:03 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:A grumpy over the hill point guard? Like say... Rondo???


Yeah....we have Rondo. We're not gonna just 'get' CP3. Your gonna have to dump a ton of talent to get him. And for what?


Oops...I take it back. CP3 has a much better net rating than Kobe too. So clearly my argument is flawed. The stats have spoken.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#219 » by thebigbird » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:14 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:A grumpy over the hill point guard? Like say... Rondo???


Yeah....we have Rondo. We're not gonna just 'get' CP3. Your gonna have to dump a ton of talent to get him. And for what?


Oops...I take it back. CP3 has a much better net rating than Kobe too. So clearly my argument is flawed. The stats have spoken.

Are you intentionally missing the point or what's your deal? Youre just making it clear that you don't know what you're talking about when you're talking about net ratings.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#220 » by danfantastk32 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:24 pm

thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
Yeah....we have Rondo. We're not gonna just 'get' CP3. Your gonna have to dump a ton of talent to get him. And for what?


Oops...I take it back. CP3 has a much better net rating than Kobe too. So clearly my argument is flawed. The stats have spoken.

Are you intentionally missing the point or what's your deal? Sorry if pointing out that Rondo sucks hurt your feelings.


Honestly man, we're 14-2...so I don't care if you like Rondo or not. I'm not 15...so I don't have 'feelings' on chat boards. Rondo is a sub-par player. He's the best we have at point...and it is what it is at this point. I'd love someone better, but certainly not on your account, but because I want the Lakers to win a title. If Caruso takes us there, or Rondo takes us there...or if we somehow trade Kuzma for Curry, then great.

I think your argument with your cherry-picked stat is ridiculous, and I've been having fun with it. I picked a stat that aided my argument. Your "advanced stats have never been kind to Kobe" comment, just says it all with stats. I've missed no point, but you seem to ignore your own warnings about them. Anyone who thinks a first year coach with a sharp cookie like Lebron, is gonna play the worst option at PG just so AD gets the fuzzies, is fair game in my book. I'm under the weather, and stuck in the house today. So I'm entertaining myself.

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