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Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET

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thebigbird
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#221 » by thebigbird » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:27 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
Oops...I take it back. CP3 has a much better net rating than Kobe too. So clearly my argument is flawed. The stats have spoken.

Are you intentionally missing the point or what's your deal? Sorry if pointing out that Rondo sucks hurt your feelings.


Honestly man, we're 14-2...so I don't care if you like Rondo or not. I'm not 15...so I don't have 'feelings' on chat boards. Rondo is a sub-par player. He's the best we have at point...and it is what it is at this point. I'd love someone better, but certainly not on your account, but because I want the Lakers to win a title. If Caruso takes us there, or Rondo takes us there...or if we somehow trade Kuzma for Curry, then great.

I think your argument with your cherry-picked stat is ridiculous, and I've been having fun with it. I picked a stat that aided my argument. Your "advanced stats have never been kind to Kobe" comment, just says it all with stats. I've missed no point, but you seem to ignore your own warnings about them. Anyone who thinks a first year coach with a sharp cookie like Lebron, is gonna play the worst option at PG just so AD gets the fuzzies, is fair game in my book. I'm under the weather, and stuck in the house today. So I'm entertaining myself.

Lol, they're not "cherry picked stats." If you can point to anything that shows the Lakers are better with rondo than without I would love to hear it. If my stats are "cherry picked" then it shouldn't be hard to find.

Managing the locker room is one of the most important things a coach can do. It shouldn't be hard to figure out that that's what's going on with Rondo playing so many minutes, but alas...
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#222 » by danfantastk32 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:47 pm

thebigbird wrote:It shouldn't be hard to figure out that that's what's going on with Rondo playing so many minutes, but alas...


Well since Caruso plays more than him, and Rondo's minutes are considerably less than last year....I guess Vogel came to these boards and got put straight. And here we are at 14-2......so well done
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#223 » by thebigbird » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:05 am

danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:It shouldn't be hard to figure out that that's what's going on with Rondo playing so many minutes, but alas...


Well since Caruso plays more than him, and Rondo's minutes are considerably less than last year....I guess Vogel came to these boards and got put straight. And here we are at 14-2......so well done

The whole "we're 14-2 thing" really isn't doing what you think it's doing considering that Rondo has missed 10 out of 16 games and has faced only one team with a winning record. The fact that he has a -7.2 on/off on a team with the best record in the NBA says a lot about his value to the team. In fact, you'd have to go back to 2011/2012 to find the last season Rondo had a positive on/off.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#224 » by Pythagoras » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:07 am

danfantastk32 wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:A grumpy over the hill point guard? Like say... Rondo???


Yeah....we have Rondo. We're not gonna just 'get' CP3. Your gonna have to dump a ton of talent to get him. And for what?


Someone else stated that where was a path to adding CP3 via trade by adding a 3rd team without gutting the heart of the team. I haven’t checked to confirm and I’ve stated I think it’s a long shot.

If it IS possible though, the the answer to your question “for what?” Would be: “to win a championship”
Numbers rule the universe.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#225 » by stan francisco » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:47 am

It was good to see this team squeak out a win they didn’t deserve. Veteran style. Phew.

We seriously missed Bradley and Caruso in this game and everyone needs to chill on Rondo a bit because of it. Down the stretch he made some big plays on both ends. A pivotal pass and a pivotal rebound.

Our defensive numbers on Rondo happen to match the eye test, indeed, but it also partially coincides with Bradley being out, and yesterday Caruso.
2019-20
PG: James16, Caruso20, Bradley4, Rondo4, Norvell4
SG: Green24, Pope10, Bradley8, Daniels4, Cook2
SF: Kuzma22, James16, THT6, Caroline4
PF: Davis32, Kuzma10, Cacok4, Dudley2
C: McGee22, Howard22, Davis2, Antetokounmpo2
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#226 » by danfantastk32 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:47 am

Pythagoras wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:A grumpy over the hill point guard? Like say... Rondo???


Yeah....we have Rondo. We're not gonna just 'get' CP3. Your gonna have to dump a ton of talent to get him. And for what?


Someone else stated that where was a path to adding CP3 via trade by adding a 3rd team without gutting the heart of the team. I haven’t checked to confirm and I’ve stated I think it’s a long shot.

If it IS possible though, the the answer to your question “for what?” Would be: “to win a championship”


I guess we need to talk to 'someone else' and find out what his definition of "gutting the heart of the team" is. Cause your gonna need to give up around $30 large. For a guy who wears suits every playoff run. I'd rather keep our $30 worth of squad.

And for the record....if we can get a legit PG via trade, I'm totally for it. But I'll take Rondo for $3 over CP3 for $40. At least there's a chance Rondo will be able-bodied in May/June.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#227 » by danfantastk32 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:50 am

thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:It shouldn't be hard to figure out that that's what's going on with Rondo playing so many minutes, but alas...


Well since Caruso plays more than him, and Rondo's minutes are considerably less than last year....I guess Vogel came to these boards and got put straight. And here we are at 14-2......so well done

The whole "we're 14-2 thing" really isn't doing what you think it's doing considering that Rondo has missed 10 out of 16 games and has faced only one team with a winning record. The fact that he has a -7.2 on/off on a team with the best record in the NBA says a lot about his value to the team. In fact, you'd have to go back to 2011/2012 to find the last season Rondo had a positive on/off.


So we go get Nance, and have him run point?
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#228 » by thebigbird » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:11 am

danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
Well since Caruso plays more than him, and Rondo's minutes are considerably less than last year....I guess Vogel came to these boards and got put straight. And here we are at 14-2......so well done

The whole "we're 14-2 thing" really isn't doing what you think it's doing considering that Rondo has missed 10 out of 16 games and has faced only one team with a winning record. The fact that he has a -7.2 on/off on a team with the best record in the NBA says a lot about his value to the team. In fact, you'd have to go back to 2011/2012 to find the last season Rondo had a positive on/off.


So we go get Nance, and have him run point?

Larry Nance doesn't even have a positive career net rating, and he's had a negative rating in 4 of 5 seasons. The one season he had a positive one, 2017/2018, it was a +0.8. You couldn't even get your example of why it's a bad stat right.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#229 » by danfantastk32 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:50 am

thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:The whole "we're 14-2 thing" really isn't doing what you think it's doing considering that Rondo has missed 10 out of 16 games and has faced only one team with a winning record. The fact that he has a -7.2 on/off on a team with the best record in the NBA says a lot about his value to the team. In fact, you'd have to go back to 2011/2012 to find the last season Rondo had a positive on/off.


So we go get Nance, and have him run point?

Larry Nance doesn't even have a positive career net rating, and he's had a negative rating in 4 of 5 seasons. The one season he had a positive one, 2017/2018, it was a +0.8. You couldn't even get your example of why it's a bad stat right.


Perhaps we can agree on this: Boban Marjanovic not only beats Kareem in the PER...but he's dusting Lebron in the Net Rating this year. So clearly he's the best choice, no?

How was that one?
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#230 » by thebigbird » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:11 am

danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
So we go get Nance, and have him run point?

Larry Nance doesn't even have a positive career net rating, and he's had a negative rating in 4 of 5 seasons. The one season he had a positive one, 2017/2018, it was a +0.8. You couldn't even get your example of why it's a bad stat right.


Perhaps we can agree on this: Boban Marjanovic not only beats Kareem in the PER...but he's dusting Lebron in the Net Rating this year. So clearly he's the best choice, no?

How was that one?

If you're going to troll, can you at least be entertaining? You don't compare net ratings from players on different teams.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#231 » by danfantastk32 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:28 am

thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:Larry Nance doesn't even have a positive career net rating, and he's had a negative rating in 4 of 5 seasons. The one season he had a positive one, 2017/2018, it was a +0.8. You couldn't even get your example of why it's a bad stat right.


Perhaps we can agree on this: Boban Marjanovic not only beats Kareem in the PER...but he's dusting Lebron in the Net Rating this year. So clearly he's the best choice, no?

How was that one?

If you're going to troll, can you at least be entertaining? You don't compare net ratings from players on different teams.


Sorry....I'm new to cherry-picked advanced stats. Still ironing the kinks out. Kostas Antetokounmpo is our team leader in net rating. Does he work for you?

You know....for a guy who picked such a crappy stat to roll with (the top NBA Net Rating players this season are Jarrell Brantley, Max Stus, Yuta Watanabe, Justin Robinson, Sekou Doumbouya, Devon Hall, Deandre Ayton, Charles Brown Jr, Kostas Antetokounmpo, Boban Marjonovic) you really are particular about it's use.

I gotta get down all the way to #35 to get to Joel Embiid before I finally read a player I'd actually want on my team. I'm gonna go ahead and call this stat pretty crap for deciding good players. You say nobody uses PER...but maybe they aughta. I'll take my top-15 PER team and play your top 15 NetRating team...let's see how it goes.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#232 » by thebigbird » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:02 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
Perhaps we can agree on this: Boban Marjanovic not only beats Kareem in the PER...but he's dusting Lebron in the Net Rating this year. So clearly he's the best choice, no?

How was that one?

If you're going to troll, can you at least be entertaining? You don't compare net ratings from players on different teams.


Sorry....I'm new to cherry-picked advanced stats. Still ironing the kinks out. Kostas Antetokounmpo is our team leader in net rating. Does he work for you?

You know....for a guy who picked such a crappy stat to roll with (the top NBA Net Rating players this season are Jarrell Brantley, Max Stus, Yuta Watanabe, Justin Robinson, Sekou Doumbouya, Devon Hall, Deandre Ayton, Charles Brown Jr, Kostas Antetokounmpo, Boban Marjonovic) you really are particular about it's use.

I gotta get down all the way to #35 to get to Joel Embiid before I finally read a player I'd actually want on my team. I'm gonna go ahead and call this stat pretty crap for deciding good players. You say nobody uses PER...but maybe they aughta. I'll take my top-15 PER team and play your top 15 NetRating team...let's see how it goes.

It's not a cherry picked statistic, you just don't understand it... If you did you would understand minimum sample sizes. It's why the NBA requires players to play a certain number of games to be considered in the statistical leaders. Kostas has played 3 minutes this season. Yeah, an advanced stat isn't useful when a player has played only 3 minutes. That's not what they're made for. The three lowest net ratings on the team belong to Rondo, Troy Daniels, and Jared Dudley - the three worst rotational players on the Lakers. You can either realize that Rondo is actively hurting this team when he plays, or you can stick your head in the sand and ignore what is obvious to the majority of us.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#233 » by tamaraw08 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:48 pm

stan francisco wrote:It was good to see this team squeak out a win they didn’t deserve. Veteran style. Phew.

We seriously missed Bradley and Caruso in this game and everyone needs to chill on Rondo a bit because of it. Down the stretch he made some big plays on both ends. A pivotal pass and a pivotal rebound.

Our defensive numbers on Rondo happen to match the eye test, indeed, but it also partially coincides with Bradley being out, and yesterday Caruso.


Good points esp the part about missing Bradley and Caruso. Add other factors too like
1 Tired veteran team playing on the 2nd night of back to back games.
2. a Motivated young team who was well rested, confident playing in front of their fans, insanely getting hot from the 3pt area.
3. An aging 35 yr old superstar who missed his routine pre-game power nap.
4. Another superstar still nursing his sore shoulder....ok, the 3-4 might be a stretch but still....
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#234 » by tamaraw08 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:52 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
Yeah....we have Rondo. We're not gonna just 'get' CP3. Your gonna have to dump a ton of talent to get him. And for what?


Someone else stated that where was a path to adding CP3 via trade by adding a 3rd team without gutting the heart of the team. I haven’t checked to confirm and I’ve stated I think it’s a long shot.

If it IS possible though, the the answer to your question “for what?” Would be: “to win a championship”


I guess we need to talk to 'someone else' and find out what his definition of "gutting the heart of the team" is. Cause your gonna need to give up around $30 large. For a guy who wears suits every playoff run. I'd rather keep our $30 worth of squad.

And for the record....if we can get a legit PG via trade, I'm totally for it. But I'll take Rondo for $3 over CP3 for $40. At least there's a chance Rondo will be able-bodied in May/June.


I think that someone is referring to Miami who doesn't have to give up Jimmy Butler. They throw in Dragic and other players like Johnson, Olynik plus picks.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#235 » by tamaraw08 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:20 pm

thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:If you're going to troll, can you at least be entertaining? You don't compare net ratings from players on different teams.


Sorry....I'm new to cherry-picked advanced stats. Still ironing the kinks out. Kostas Antetokounmpo is our team leader in net rating. Does he work for you?

You know....for a guy who picked such a crappy stat to roll with (the top NBA Net Rating players this season are Jarrell Brantley, Max Stus, Yuta Watanabe, Justin Robinson, Sekou Doumbouya, Devon Hall, Deandre Ayton, Charles Brown Jr, Kostas Antetokounmpo, Boban Marjonovic) you really are particular about it's use.

I gotta get down all the way to #35 to get to Joel Embiid before I finally read a player I'd actually want on my team. I'm gonna go ahead and call this stat pretty crap for deciding good players. You say nobody uses PER...but maybe they aughta. I'll take my top-15 PER team and play your top 15 NetRating team...let's see how it goes.

It's not a cherry picked statistic, you just don't understand it... If you did you would understand minimum sample sizes. It's why the NBA requires players to play a certain number of games to be considered in the statistical leaders. Kostas has played 3 minutes this season. Yeah, an advanced stat isn't useful when a player has played only 3 minutes. That's not what they're made for. The three lowest net ratings on the team belong to Rondo, Troy Daniels, and Jared Dudley - the three worst rotational players on the Lakers. You can either realize that Rondo is actively hurting this team when he plays, or you can stick your head in the sand and ignore what is obvious to the majority of us.

Can you share the link where you are getting this (bolded) from. I'm getting conflicting numbers from nba.com and basketballref.
I still don't want Rondo to play heavy minutes esp playing next to Lebron but there are times when James is too tired to carry the ball that he tends slow the pace then settles for low % jumpers. Daniels, Cook and even Bradley are not good traditional PGs that they tend to make silly decisions like telegraphed passes which lead to easy transition baskets.
Back to stats, I think there are players who don't have glowing stats like Derek Fisher before and yet they find ways to contribute.
Everybody seems to be very impressed with Vogel right now esp with the teams' great record. But I'm still not fully sold on him yet, having said that, I don't think he is that stupid to notice if Rondo is such a bad player to be used in certain games.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#236 » by thebigbird » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:31 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
Sorry....I'm new to cherry-picked advanced stats. Still ironing the kinks out. Kostas Antetokounmpo is our team leader in net rating. Does he work for you?

You know....for a guy who picked such a crappy stat to roll with (the top NBA Net Rating players this season are Jarrell Brantley, Max Stus, Yuta Watanabe, Justin Robinson, Sekou Doumbouya, Devon Hall, Deandre Ayton, Charles Brown Jr, Kostas Antetokounmpo, Boban Marjonovic) you really are particular about it's use.

I gotta get down all the way to #35 to get to Joel Embiid before I finally read a player I'd actually want on my team. I'm gonna go ahead and call this stat pretty crap for deciding good players. You say nobody uses PER...but maybe they aughta. I'll take my top-15 PER team and play your top 15 NetRating team...let's see how it goes.

It's not a cherry picked statistic, you just don't understand it... If you did you would understand minimum sample sizes. It's why the NBA requires players to play a certain number of games to be considered in the statistical leaders. Kostas has played 3 minutes this season. Yeah, an advanced stat isn't useful when a player has played only 3 minutes. That's not what they're made for. The three lowest net ratings on the team belong to Rondo, Troy Daniels, and Jared Dudley - the three worst rotational players on the Lakers. You can either realize that Rondo is actively hurting this team when he plays, or you can stick your head in the sand and ignore what is obvious to the majority of us.

Can you share the link where you are getting this (bolded) from. I'm getting conflicting numbers from nba.com and basketballref.
I still don't want Rondo to play heavy minutes esp playing next to Lebron but there are times when James is too tired to carry the ball that he tends slow the pace then settles for low % jumpers. Daniels, Cook and even Bradley are not good traditional PGs that they tend to make silly decisions like telegraphed passes which lead to easy transition baskets.
Back to stats, I think there are players who don't have glowing stats like Derek Fisher before and yet they find ways to contribute.
Everybody seems to be very impressed with Vogel right now esp with the teams' great record. But I'm still not fully sold on him yet, having said that, I don't think he is that stupid to notice if Rondo is such a bad player to be used in certain games.

I got the bolded from basketball reference. Zach Norvell technically has the lowest, but he has only played 5 minutes. It's under "show play-by-play." https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2020.html

Fwiw I'm getting the same thing on NBA.com as I did on bball reference. https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/players-advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

A guy like Fisher doesn't have good numbers when you look at things like PER, BPM, WS/48, and VORP, but his impact stats show that he was making an impact when he was on the floor, especially in the years when the Lakers were making finals runs.

I don't think that Vogel is necessarily stupid, but I do think that there is a subset of guys out there who buy into the whole "winning mentality", "killer instinct", "he's a ball player" mentality. They say things like "player X just knows how to win," even when it's obvious that they're hurting the team. That could be part of what's going on with Vogel/Rondo, if he's not playing him for locker room reasons. I also believe that Rondo is still living off the reputation he built almost a decade ago on the Celtics.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#237 » by danfantastk32 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:26 pm

thebigbird wrote:It's not a cherry picked statistic, you just don't understand it... If you did you would understand minimum sample sizes. It's why the NBA requires players to play a certain number of games to be considered in the statistical leaders. Kostas has played 3 minutes this season. Yeah, an advanced stat isn't useful when a player has played only 3 minutes. That's not what they're made for.


Awww...now you gotta hand-pick a sub-set of your cherry-picked stat to make it work? And what about your boy Boban?? He's playing almost 14 minutes a game, and is miles above Lebron? You got an excuse for that?

Landsberger had it right....you married a statistic, and here you are twisting, and massaging it to make your story work. Good thing what seems so obvious to many of you, isn't so obvious to the coach. He's letting Rondo play. Vogel must be a PER fan.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#238 » by danfantastk32 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:31 pm

danfantastk32 wrote: Vogel must be a PER fan.


...and all the politics of course. We can't forget that. We don't want Rondo going all "John Bonham" on the locker room.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#239 » by thebigbird » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:35 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:It's not a cherry picked statistic, you just don't understand it... If you did you would understand minimum sample sizes. It's why the NBA requires players to play a certain number of games to be considered in the statistical leaders. Kostas has played 3 minutes this season. Yeah, an advanced stat isn't useful when a player has played only 3 minutes. That's not what they're made for.


Awww...now you gotta hand-pick a sub-set of your cherry-picked stat to make it work? And what about your boy Boban?? He's playing almost 14 minutes a game, and is miles above Lebron? You got an excuse for that?

Landsberger had it right....you married a statistic, and here you are twisting, and massaging it to make your story work. Good thing what seems so obvious to many of you, isn't so obvious to the coach. He's letting Rondo play. Vogel must be a PER fan.

"Good thing what seems so obvious to many of you, isn't so obvious to the coach."

Yeah, it's great that the coach is playing a game who is a big net negative so many minutes! We have to keep games close so that fans don't lose interest. Lol.

Vogel must not actually be a PER fan, because he's playing KCP, Kuzma, Green, and Bradley more minutes than Rondo even though all their PERs are lower. I'm done with this conversation though because I'm tired of having to correct you on literally everything.
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Re: Game 16: Los Angeles Lakers (13-2) @ Memphis Grizzlies (5-9) - 8:00 PM ET 

Post#240 » by danfantastk32 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:01 pm

thebigbird wrote:I'm done with this conversation though because I'm tired of having to correct you on literally everything.


It looks to me like you ran out of ways to twist your stat. Sorry Boban is not as good as Lebron. I figured if I boxed you in little by little, that stat would run out of places to hide.

Have a good day....Go Lakers (all of them). Stay away from advanced stats if you can help it. They can burn your hand. Your "advanced stats are not kind to Kobe" comment was a gem I'll enjoy for a bit. Do think about what you said there a little. It was insightful, even if not obvious to you at first.

You'll get there

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