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Enough is Enough vogel has got to go.

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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#101 » by Wavy Q » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:42 pm

Slava wrote:
Wavy Q wrote:Vogel is literally the same as every other coach that isnt Pop/Kerr/Nurse/Spoelstra/Carslile. Those are the 5 that impact their teams for the better. (might be forgetting someone) Every other coach is meh or gets in the way.

I have the opinion that coaching is the least important thing in basketball vs other sports. Stars win you games.


I think Vogel might be in the next tier if not in that conversation. His attention to detail and getting superstars to buy in, especially on defense is a special skill. I haven't seen LeBron be so integrated into a defensive scheme since Miami, he usually freelances a lot.

I'm watching Stevens struggling with Toronto and Miami's zone for two consecutive series and I remember Vogel adjusting to it after one time out when they played us in LA during the regular season. Granted the personnel are quite different between LA and Boston considering LeBron is much taller than the Celtics guards and AD is a good enough passer to put in the middle of the zone and let him pick them apart but still his adjustments have so far never felt late.


That's fair, at the same time his offense leaves a lot to be desired but if you want to make a 2nd tier of competent but not elite coaches he would be there, probably with guys like Stevens and Budenhozler.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#102 » by Kilroy » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:59 pm

I think Mike Malone has to be mentioned on the same level as at least Carlisle at this point... If he's not there by now, he's closer than any of the others.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#103 » by Dr Aki » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:53 pm

https://www.wsj.com/articles/alex-caruso-lebron-james-lakers-nba-playoffs-11600406618

The LeBron James of Playing with LeBron James

The NBA’s best player combination this season was LeBron James and Alex Caruso—and it wasn’t just this season. James was better with Caruso than any teammate in his career

LeBron James was 9 years old and playing for his first basketball team when he learned that he can’t win alone. He doesn’t want to win alone, either. He’s spent the past decade competing for titles in Miami, Cleveland and Los Angeles with other NBA superstars.

But he now has another sidekick—and it isn’t someone he expected when he signed with the Lakers.

“He definitely didn’t know who I was,” said Alex Caruso.

There are few players in the league who inspire less fear at first glance than Caruso. He went undrafted out of college. He’s logged more time in the G League than the NBA. He is 26 years old and balding.

He also happens to be a perfect fit with LeBron James. The best player in the world plays better with Caruso than anybody he’s ever played with.

“We’re one and the same when it comes to winning basketball,” James said.

Traditional statistics don’t suggest anything notable about Caruso, who averaged 5.5 points off the bench this season. But his impact on the game is captured by a metric called net rating, which calculates a team’s point differential per 100 possessions. The average net rating for NBA champions over the last two decades was 7.2 points, and the Lakers’ net rating of 5.6 points this season climbed to 8 points with James and Anthony Davis on the court.

It was 18.6 points when James and Caruso were together. They ranked No. 1 in the NBA by net rating.

But this wasn’t merely the league’s best combination. The extraordinary thing about their improbable partnership is that James had a higher net rating with Caruso than anyone in his career.

The Wall Street Journal’s analysis included hundreds of players who shared the floor with James for significant time in a season since the NBA began tracking lineup data. Caruso was on the court with James for 560 minutes—fewer than James played with other teammates but enough that the effects were not a statistical fluke.

The numbers were hard for Lakers coach Frank Vogel to ignore. Here is how their net rating with Caruso and James compared with his most dominant seasons with other teammates:

Alex Caruso (2020): +18.6

Dwyane Wade (2013): +14.4

Chris Bosh (2013): +12.8

Kevin Love (2016): +11.7

Kyrie Irving (2015): +11.6

Caruso was surprised by this. He was also curious. He wanted to know who else was high on the list. As it turned out, James’s championship teams were at their best when he shared the floor with Shane Battier, Mario Chalmers and Matthew Dellavedova, similarly unsung players who became valuable by embracing their roles. “That’s pretty good company,” Caruso said.

As the Western Conference Finals between the Lakers and Denver Nuggets begin on Friday, the relationship between Caruso and James is a useful reminder of how playoff basketball works. Star players like James win series. Role players like Caruso swing them.

“Alex is the type of player who would complement a star very well,” said Rick German, his high-school coach, “regardless of who it is.”

But their basketball alchemy reflects one of the ironies of building a team around James. He makes players better. He needs them to make him better, too.

“I’ve always done a good job when I play with better players than myself,” Caruso told his teammate Jared Dudley in an Instagram Live chat. “I seem to be able to raise my game. I can’t always do that if I’m the best player on the court. Luckily, I’m not going to be the best player on the court probably for the rest of my life.”

To understand why James has such an appreciation for Caruso, it’s worth flashing back to a news conference during the 2018 NBA Finals, when he ruminated about the makeup of championship teams. It was a revealing look into his basketball philosophy. “Not only do you have to have the talent, you have to have the minds,” James said. “Everybody knows how to put the ball in the hoop. But who can think throughout the course of the game?”

He described Caruso this week in uncannily similar language.

“To see our chemistry together,” James said, “I think it comes with our minds.”

The Raptors’ Pascal Siakam shoots under pressure from LeBron James and Alex Caruso.

One advantage of being in high school and college as James was playing in eight straight Finals is that Caruso could study his future teammate simply by watching basketball on television. He noticed the subtleties of James’s playmaking. He was paying attention, for example, when James would call for a screen from Dellavedova. “Which is a lot of what basketball is late in the game: getting a switch and mismatch for your best player on the other team’s worst defender and exploiting it,” Caruso explained.

He, too, would be very good at getting out of James’s way. He can make himself productive without the ball on offense. He can also attack space and throw down ferocious dunks that are treated like comet sightings. And he’s a shrewd defender who led the team in steals, deflections and charges drawn per 36 minutes.

But it was another stat, the Lakers’ net rating with Caruso and James, that convinced Vogel to play this unlikely pairing more.

“Being out on the floor with AC,” James said, “gives our team a sense of calmness.”

The son of a coach, Caruso grew up in College Station, Texas, a basketball geek in a football town. He started four years at nearby Texas A&M, but the NBA seemed like a pipe dream. For a while, it was.

He went undrafted. He spent one season in the G League on a $35,000 salary. When the Lakers signed him to a two-way contract in 2017, he still played more for the South Bay Lakers.

Lakers forward LeBron James celebrates a play with teammate Alex Caruso.

Caruso had the displeasure of defending James for precisely one possession in the only game they had played against each other—he missed a running floater with his left hand—and there was no good reason for James to remember the guy who looked as if he had gotten lost on his way to an insurance convention. Caruso remembers everything about it.

“I was very, very proud of myself for not just letting him go by and dunk the ball,” he said.

What’s happening this year really began last year. That disastrous season for the Lakers was auspicious in one way: It slowly became clear that Caruso and James clicked. “I started realizing that I’m seeing the same things that he’s seeing,” Caruso said. “I’m not seeing everything that he is, but I’m seeing stuff that the defense is not.”

Their chemistry is the result of a shared intelligence. “If you have a high IQ, you can play with LeBron,” said his former teammate Mo Williams. But it isn’t just Caruso’s brain that James respects. It’s also his background. Nobody has played as much in the G League and then played such an essential part in the NBA playoffs.

“It’s so uplifting and rewarding to see what he’s capable of doing,” James said.

Caruso, who is now on a two-year deal worth $5.5 million, always had confidence in himself. But one play last week showed why he’s earned the trust of James.

It was the final minute of a frantic game. The shot clock was ticking down. When a second defender helped on James, he passed to his open teammate for a shot that would seal the win. He knew that Caruso was exactly where he was supposed to be. “It’s pretty easy,” he said, “when the other part of your tandem is LeBron James.”
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#104 » by Wavy Q » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:15 am

Kilroy wrote:I think Mike Malone has to be mentioned on the same level as at least Carlisle at this point... If he's not there by now, he's closer than any of the others.


I'd like to see him sustain it for more than 2 seasons but yeah he's got a chance.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#105 » by Vae Victus » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:55 am

I shudder to think how this season woulda went if Tyronn Lue didnt let his ego get the best of him and signed the deal offered.

His "assistant coaching" in LAC clearly shows he's really a non entity for the most part. Didnt have the balls to set Doc straight on needed adjustments to win.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#106 » by lautreamont » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:31 pm

Vae Victus wrote:I shudder to think how this season woulda went if Tyronn Lue didnt let his ego get the best of him and signed the deal offered.

His "assistant coaching" in LAC clearly shows he's really a non entity for the most part. Didnt have the balls to set Doc straight on needed adjustments to win.


It's pretty clear Vogel ended up being the better choice.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#107 » by Michael Lucky » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:29 am

What did vogel do that was so bad again?
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#108 » by LBC SoCal » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:16 am

Random comment but it seems that a rested Lebron in the 4th is better than a fatigued Lebron... Meaning, in close games it might be better to still give him rest instead of have him play 36 minutes for example. Lakers actually have a deep rotation so having him sit even for a few minutes might be beneficial.
Yeah you also have 17 titles..but winning most of them over 40 years ago is meh.

Talk about collusion, do those chips in the 60s really count tho?

11 titles won in LA in the modern era, while y’all living on “success” from 2 generations ago :lol:
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#109 » by Beethoven » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:26 pm

Enough is enough Vogel has got to go...

C'mon this thread keeps bumpin up and the title so far sure didn't age well.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#110 » by NippySudz » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:16 am

Kilroy wrote:
Kilroy wrote:Vogel is about to face the only real test he's had this post season... If we face the Clippers, it'll be the first time we didn't just have a clear talent advantage. Not only that, but Doc's great at getting his teams ready and making adjustments.
If FrankV **** the bed in the WCF, then it may be time to start talking about an improvement there.


Well this post didn't age well... Doc sucks, all in on Vogel.

Doc has always sucked and he and the league has pulled the wool over fan's eyes. Even when he had the celtics, his celtics had to play a 7 game series in the first round. He doesn't make the adjustments and had funky lineups out there including playing his son for "defensive purposes"
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#111 » by Beethoven » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:54 am

^what's going on with your owner? Is he worried that firing doc would be inviting blm to burn down his new stadium? Just curious why he's keeping doc.

We may need to let go of Vogel soon enough as the nuggets are about to win 4 in a row.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#112 » by lalalaker » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:55 am

I am not going to lie i was frustrated with vogel at the start of the season for questionable rotations and i still did during some games in the playoffs like playing jr smith and so on. I was never with the idea of defense wins championship but this coach proved me wrong with that game 6 vs heat. beside lebron and davis this playoffs we really didnt have a reliable shooter that opponents thought were deadly if left wide open. lakers sure dam missed alot of open 3s and was somewat envious of heat having robinson and heero. I was always a fan of having knock down shooters who opponents had to chase so hard like ray allen, korver, robinson type player. In the end these shooters were containable with defense and thats wat coach vogel made me realize how i was wrong about him. For that i admit making this post a mistake and god bless frank vogel for great job he has done being decisive. I dont think i ever seen a coach willing to adjust the starting lineup as much as he did. I know coaches just tend to stick to same lineup and just do a quick sub but vogel had every lakers ready when their name was called up. dwight and mcgee didnt get as much play time against houston and heat but they desreve every bit of credit for this championship.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#113 » by wco81 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:10 pm

Was it Vogel's genius?

Or Lebron and AD both shot way above their career averages, including from 3.

On top of that, they had their role players step up, KCP and Rondo.

During the regular bubble games, contributions from role players didn't look that promising. Then the playoffs started and lets be honest, the officiating helped the Lakers in some key games, not just directly putting AD and LBJ on the line at ridiculous rates but also letting players like Howard play as physically as he wanted for stretches.

Things is Lakers likely would have won even without the favorable officiating, maybe just lose a few more games overall.

But the league wanted at least one of the LA teams in the Finals, since they desperately needed the TV money ,which is why they did the bubble in the first place.

Yet ratings are way down. Were Lakers fans not tuning in?
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#114 » by stan francisco » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:53 pm

Yeah, when the Lakers win via suffocating defense of historic proportions and beat the whole league, haters say the league and refs love us. Look at the FT disparity of game one.

2020-2021
PG: Caruso, Rondo, Bradley
SG: James, Green/KCP, THT
SF: Kuzma, FA, Caroline
PF: Davis, Morris, Cacok
C: Howard, Kostas, FA

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Kostas | C Howard

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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#115 » by LAKESHOW » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:58 pm

Vogels experience getting here was important. Dude was fired. Had some successes. Was getting smashed in Orlando. The whole enchilada. A coach who has gone thru the battles and failures, was really what was needed. His defensive schemes have been tried and tested when he had some sorry ass teams to work with.
True, I have been upset with some of his moves, but I will give him huge credit for his adjustments made.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#116 » by ScHoolBoy B » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:37 am

I said from the very beginning when we were coach searching Vogel or bust. His Pacers team was a team feared by most of the Eastern Conference. He's a great coach, I'm glad he's here and would love for him to be the coach of the Lakers for a very long time. I think we can put Vogel in the top tier now.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#117 » by Beethoven » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:23 am

We haven't won a game in the last seven days...
what's goin on?? Enough is enough Vogel has got to go....


8-)
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#118 » by stan francisco » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:57 pm

Beethoven wrote:We haven't won a game in the last seven days...
what's goin on?? Enough is enough Vogel has got to go....


8-)


Some thread titles age well ...

2020-2021
PG: Caruso, Rondo, Bradley
SG: James, Green/KCP, THT
SF: Kuzma, FA, Caroline
PF: Davis, Morris, Cacok
C: Howard, Kostas, FA

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Kostas | C Howard

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