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Enough is Enough vogel has got to go.

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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#21 » by Landsberger » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:49 am

Kilroy wrote:
Slava wrote:The team has lost 7 games all season, two of those to the clippers who have a superior roster, a game in Indiana without Davis, a game against Denver without LeBron and the rest against good defenses like toronto, Milwaukee on the road etc.

There's still a lot of time to address the issues and Vogel has done well in laying down the fundamentals of how this team is supposed to play. Unless you want Lionel Hollins, Jason kidd or David fizdale, Vogel is still the best option.


For me it's not so much about the losses, as it is about the feeling that he got flat out-coached both times against the Clippers... They go in at the half in a double-digit hole, and no real answers to what we were doing essentially with no LeBron, Doc adjusts and they come back and put it to us in the second half.

There have been several games this season where I felt like we had no real game plan but won anyway just on Lebron/AD's greatness... In fact there have been games where it just felt like the offense was impeding us.

I'm not calling for Vogel's head... Firing him would be a little embarrassing right now... But I don't think he's helping this team that much either and we need some changes.

This team, as constructed and coached right now is AT BEST a WCF contender. I don't think that satisfies anyone really.


When everyone in the building knows you're going to walk it up and set up a slow developing pick and roll for Lebron you get what we got. Doc isn't dumb.... and neither is the rest of the league. Bron is still a top 5 player when healthy in isolation however he wasn't healthy. You can't be that predictable and just hope for one superior player to finish the job every night when it comes to the playoffs.

Now.... is this Vogel.... or is it LeBron? Last year we did exactly the same thing... Bron did the same thing in Cleveland.... See a pattern?

I hope we see some motion off the ball instead of this 2 man game in the future.... not sure we will however.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#22 » by snaquille oatmeal » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:00 am

Who is the OP?
Lebron’s ego from years past
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#23 » by Crooked-I » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:05 am

Correct me if i'm wrong but I don't remember seeing many AD Lebron pick n rolls against the Clippers. I wonder if it was because Lebron was hurt or he's saving it for the playoffs. I really hope it's one of those two and not Vogel's bad coaching. Because at a certain point in the season, that was easy buckets every time.

I can't really blame him for playing Rondo. Caruso just isn't cutting it as a playmaker. He's just a hustle guy. Hopefully they buyout market is nice to us because we desperately need another playmaker so we can stop playing Rondo. Iggy is the guy we need IMO but I aint giving up Kuz for him.

What I can blame Vogel for is playing AB over KCP. KCP is the better player.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#24 » by tamaraw08 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:56 pm

NippySudz wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
Spanish_Laker wrote:4-game losing streak is just unacceptable on a team with AD and Bron. Start another massive W streak ASAP or he should be fired.


For me it's not just about wins and losses but how they are playing?
Extremely reliant on the greatness of their 2 superstars, one is a 35 yr old nursing lingering injuries and another with a history of missing games due to various injuries.
James AND AD are playing more minutes per game (more than 34 mins) than much younger players like Doncic (32 mins),KAT,Ben Simmons and Giannis (31mins) with Luca and Giannis not having a dominant player next to them.
For those Vogel supporters, please explain to me the specific sets they are running when James and AD don't handle the ball and
WHY THE HELL HE DIDN'T PRACTICE the team for almost a month. :oops:
https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2019/12/21/21033040/lakers-news-frank-vogel-practice-veterans-bucks-postgame-quotes-lebron-james
on Saturday, the Los Angeles Lakers [b]will practice for the first time since Nov. 29 — almost an entire month ago.[/b]

A big reason for that is the fact that they’ve been on the road for eight of their last nine games, but they could have snuck a practice in during that if they wanted to. So why didn’t they?

After the Lakers’ 111-104 loss to the Milwaukee Bucks on Thursday, head coach Frank Vogel told reporters that this is the least a team of his has ever practiced, but with the way they’ve looked to start the season, he thinks it’s justifiable (via Spectrum SportsNet):

I understand the idea of resting and conserving Lebron and AD's energy but why can't he formulate sets for the bench to use, screenrolls, curl plays, flex offense, motion offense etc etc, get AC, Green JMG, Daniels and have them practice them instead of saying ok guys, when you are on the court, please pass the ball to Lebron, AD and sometimes Rondo and let them run the show...
You do know the majority of NBA teams if not all don't practice during the regular season because there's so many games and you don't want to burn guys out.

How do you have time to practice when you're on the road and have multiple back to back sets?

For example, You have 3 games in 4 nights. Where would you have time to fit in a practice?


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I don't know if you actually have played and/or coach competitive basketball but those plays the coaches' set-plays requires practice including defensive schemes. I learned it the hard way when I coached a minor team before. The timing of those cuts, passes etc etc have to be in perfect precision or everything goes out of whack which results to frustrations etc.
I happened to attend an open door Lakers practice 3 yrs back and Luke showed how they did drills and practice those plays and Brian Shaw explained too that injured players are not allowed to go back and start playing if he doesn't participate in actual full contact practice, now how on earth can this happen if they don't practice?
Yes, on the road it's hard to practice but they still can if there's a break.
31 games played and the Lakers have played only 3 back to backs. 20 games played and they have 1 day rest, 7 games played and they had TWO days rest and it's not like several players are playing 25+ mins/game. Only James, AD, KCP and Green have played 25+ mins.
The 24 yr old Kuzma is playing 23 mins, Cook,Daniels under 14 mins, JMG AND Howard under 20 mins etc and I am not saying spend 2 hours minimum per day but at least 30 minutes to practice those sets but it's basically hand the ball to James and AD and exploit their greatness. KCP would run some sort of screen roll or Bradley would curl from the weakside and that's pretty much it.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#25 » by tamaraw08 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:14 pm

lalalaker wrote:What there to credit vogel this season except defense which hardly is even near consistent and have proven we cant win against good teams with such inconsistency alone. If all frank vogel could do is lose against any team just bc lbj or davis or both are out due to injury then what good is he as a coach. Losing is a barometer for how good the coach actually is by seeing what he improved upon from last loss and so far i see no such change in this team offense wise and defense wise


This is my biggest concern about Vogel. Everybody kept bringing up how great Indiana was when he was the coach there and yet the team didn't crumble after he left winning 42 games under his assistant took over. After they rebuild, they win 48 games, now you have to wonder was it Nate who was the genius or Frank?
Vogel transferred to Orlando, before he got there, Skiles won 35 games, 16th in DRTG, Franks team? 29 wins and 22nd in DRTG.
After one year, Orlando won 25 games, 18th in DRTG, he gets fired, Clifford took over and their record?
Magic won 42 games, 8TH BEST IN DRTG with basically similar roster.
Now I am not saying this guy is a fraud and he is dumb but even his BEST season at Indiana, winning 56 games, that team was only 23rd in DRTG, the following 2 years there, it's pretty much the same at 25th.
But one thing tho, is I will rather have him as coach than the more scary Jason Kidd. Now this guy has so many questions about his ability esp how his former teams Bucks and Nets getting MUCH better when he left.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#26 » by tamaraw08 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:18 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
lalalaker wrote:What there to credit vogel this season except defense which hardly is even near consistent and have proven we cant win against good teams with such inconsistency alone. If all frank vogel could do is lose against any team just bc lbj or davis or both are out due to injury then what good is he as a coach. Losing is a barometer for how good the coach actually is by seeing what he improved upon from last loss and so far i see no such change in this team offense wise and defense wise


This is my biggest concern about Vogel. Everybody kept bringing up how great Indiana was when he was the coach there and yet the team didn't crumble after he left winning 42 games under his assistant took over. After they rebuild, they win 48 games, now you have to wonder was it Nate who was the genius or Frank?
Vogel transferred to Orlando, before he got there, Skiles won 35 games, 16th in DRTG, Franks team? 29 wins and 22nd in DRTG.
After one year, Orlando won 25 games, 18th in DRTG, he gets fired, Clifford took over and their record?
Magic won 42 games, 8TH BEST IN DRTG with basically similar roster.
Now I am not saying this guy is a fraud and he is dumb but even his BEST season at Indiana, winning 56 games, that team was only 23rd in DRTG, the following 2 years there, it's pretty much the same at 25th.
But one thing tho, is I will rather have him as coach than the more scary Jason Kidd. Now this guy has so many questions about his ability esp how his former teams Bucks and Nets getting MUCH better when he left.

oops I mean't Vogel's best season in Indiana the team was 23rd in ORTG NOT DRTG (they were no 1), that year.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#27 » by Beethoven » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:25 pm

Well, Vogel still hangin on by the skin of his teeth for now....

we'll visit this thread again at the end of the Jan.18th - Jan.28th stretch. :devil:
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#28 » by NippySudz » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:17 pm

Beethoven wrote:Well, Vogel still hangin on by the skin of his teeth for now....

we'll visit this thread again at the end of the Jan.18th - Jan.28th stretch.
Jason kidd isn't a better coach than Vogel. That's who's the coach if hes let go

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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#29 » by Beethoven » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:31 pm

maybe Kidd will spill some coffee onto lebron and light his ass up
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#30 » by Freighttrain » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:43 pm

Crooked-I wrote:Correct me if i'm wrong but I don't remember seeing many AD Lebron pick n rolls against the Clippers. I wonder if it was because Lebron was hurt or he's saving it for the playoffs. I really hope it's one of those two and not Vogel's bad coaching. Because at a certain point in the season, that was easy buckets every time.

I can't really blame him for playing Rondo. Caruso just isn't cutting it as a playmaker. He's just a hustle guy. Hopefully they buyout market is nice to us because we desperately need another playmaker so we can stop playing Rondo. Iggy is the guy we need IMO but I aint giving up Kuz for him.

What I can blame Vogel for is playing AB over KCP. KCP is the better player.



It's the latter. They know their pick and roll is lethal so they're just saving it for the playoffs. I've seen so many games from LeBron teams struggling to win against regular-season hero teams (Atlanta, Chicago, Raptors), only to fleece them come post-season time. A healthy LeBron would obviously be better than him playing hobbled, at 65% of his capability's, but it seems he's determined to play as many games as he can. Perhaps last year's injury hit him mentally hard (resting and taking games for granted). Who knows. We've got bigger problems.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#31 » by bb22 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:18 pm

Freighttrain wrote:
Crooked-I wrote:Correct me if i'm wrong but I don't remember seeing many AD Lebron pick n rolls against the Clippers. I wonder if it was because Lebron was hurt or he's saving it for the playoffs. I really hope it's one of those two and not Vogel's bad coaching. Because at a certain point in the season, that was easy buckets every time.

I can't really blame him for playing Rondo. Caruso just isn't cutting it as a playmaker. He's just a hustle guy. Hopefully they buyout market is nice to us because we desperately need another playmaker so we can stop playing Rondo. Iggy is the guy we need IMO but I aint giving up Kuz for him.

What I can blame Vogel for is playing AB over KCP. KCP is the better player.



It's the latter. They know their pick and roll is lethal so they're just saving it for the playoffs. I've seen so many games from LeBron teams struggling to win against regular-season hero teams (Atlanta, Chicago, Raptors), only to fleece them come post-season time. A healthy LeBron would obviously be better than him playing hobbled, at 65% of his capability's, but it seems he's determined to play as many games as he can. Perhaps last year's injury hit him mentally hard (resting and taking games for granted). Who knows. We've got bigger problems.


However team oriented Lebron is, I think he's focusing on a few personal challenges these last few seasons. Outside of winning a ring, he wants another MVP and to keep climbing that points ladder. He even said it himself when asked about the possibility of passing Kareem. To do so, he has to average 20ppg over 252 games. Doable, but will all depend on how many games he manages to play.
He also has a realistic chance of finishing top 5 in assists, too.
I think these are the reasons why he doesn't want to miss many more games.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#32 » by NippySudz » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:57 pm

bb22 wrote:
Freighttrain wrote:
Crooked-I wrote:Correct me if i'm wrong but I don't remember seeing many AD Lebron pick n rolls against the Clippers. I wonder if it was because Lebron was hurt or he's saving it for the playoffs. I really hope it's one of those two and not Vogel's bad coaching. Because at a certain point in the season, that was easy buckets every time.

I can't really blame him for playing Rondo. Caruso just isn't cutting it as a playmaker. He's just a hustle guy. Hopefully they buyout market is nice to us because we desperately need another playmaker so we can stop playing Rondo. Iggy is the guy we need IMO but I aint giving up Kuz for him.

What I can blame Vogel for is playing AB over KCP. KCP is the better player.



It's the latter. They know their pick and roll is lethal so they're just saving it for the playoffs. I've seen so many games from LeBron teams struggling to win against regular-season hero teams (Atlanta, Chicago, Raptors), only to fleece them come post-season time. A healthy LeBron would obviously be better than him playing hobbled, at 65% of his capability's, but it seems he's determined to play as many games as he can. Perhaps last year's injury hit him mentally hard (resting and taking games for granted). Who knows. We've got bigger problems.


However team oriented Lebron is, I think he's focusing on a few personal challenges these last few seasons. Outside of winning a ring, he wants another MVP and to keep climbing that points ladder. He even said it himself when asked about the possibility of passing Kareem. To do so, he has to average 20ppg over 252 games. Doable, but will all depend on how many games he manages to play.
He also has a realistic chance of finishing top 5 in assists, too.
I think these are the reasons why he doesn't want to miss many more games.
I feel like he needs to slow the hell down and load manage. People hate that but he the fewest mins last yr and got injured. He should miss a few games every now and then. Getting 35,36 mins against sub.500 teams isn't optimal.

They either need to sit him out completely or just focus on whipping teams so bad that he sits out by the third qtr. The team needs to do a better job of executing if that's the case. Blow these teams out and get superstars rest.

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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#33 » by stan francisco » Wed Jan 1, 2020 1:09 am

Hilarious thread title.

Edit: not because I disagree with all of your criticism but because he just got started. I’d think he has at least until ASB.

That was a joke. If he keeps playing them both 35mpg+, I’ll start to lose patience, too.

His five-games-at-a-time strategy will probably pay off come game 82 but it sure is frustrating to watch a bad idea of rotations repeated for five games.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#34 » by First Take » Mon Jan 6, 2020 7:01 am

Vogel over Kidd. Kidd is a snake
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#35 » by JVL » Mon Jan 6, 2020 10:24 am

First Take wrote:Vogel over Kidd. Kidd is a snake


Exactly, I don't trust Kidd one bit and he doesn't have any credentials as a coach at all.

Healthy Lebron, Rondo out of the rotation, Danny Green shooting at least 40% and picking up Collison and we're good.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#36 » by Rosque » Thu Jan 9, 2020 2:21 pm

We have 81.1 win% and y'all wanna get rid of the HC? Man's on road to lead this team to 66-16 season and y'all wanna get him fired?
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#37 » by snaquille oatmeal » Thu Jan 9, 2020 8:28 pm

Rosque wrote:We have 81.1 win% and y'all wanna get rid of the HC? Man's on road to lead this team to 66-16 season and y'all wanna get him fired?

Entitled Lakers fan demands an 82-0 season, film at 11.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#38 » by Kilroy » Thu Jan 9, 2020 8:39 pm

Rosque wrote:We have 81.1 win% and y'all wanna get rid of the HC? Man's on road to lead this team to 66-16 season and y'all wanna get him fired?


We still haven't won a game against the elite teams in the league... 2 losses against a hobbled Clips team. Loss to the Bucks.

Winning the reg season was never the goal for this team, this season... So that stat doesn't matter a whole lot.

Vogel got pretty clearly out-coached against the Clips bot times, and the Lakers came out complacent against the Bucks, which is also basically his fault...

This thread may have been a bit of an over reaction, but at the same time, I still question our rotations at times, and some of the on court 'adjustments' just baffle me.

But he's not likely to get fired unless we can't win any games against the Clips or the Bucks...
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#39 » by Sedale Threatt » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:41 am

He's not going to get fired unless we have a complete meltdown in the playoffs, i.e. getting beat in the first round or getting swept in ass-whipping fashion in the conference finals or something catastrophic like that.

Frankly (no pun intended), we're better, maybe even a lot better, than I was expecting at this stage. I think we've overachieved by a bit in terms of record, but even with that I was expecting us to be more in the 50-55 win territory, definitely not on pace for well over 60. We've got two legit MVP candidates followed by a bunch of inconsistent spare parts, but despite the fact that we play down to our competition a bit too much for my liking it feels to me like we're generally getting good mileage out of what we have.

Much as I would have loved to pound the Clippers -- losing to the Bucks on the road is the most flushable loss you can have -- I appreciate the fact that we're beating the teams we should be beating. Of course, the ultimate litmus test is the playoffs. But even our 00 and 10 teams, the most successful we've had wins-wise in the past 30 years, had five or six losses to sub-500 teams, something we have yet to do this season. That's a great way to get homecourt advantage, at least.
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Re: Enough is Enough vogel has got to go. 

Post#40 » by NippySudz » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:15 am

Kilroy wrote:
Rosque wrote:We have 81.1 win% and y'all wanna get rid of the HC? Man's on road to lead this team to 66-16 season and y'all wanna get him fired?


We still haven't won a game against the elite teams in the league... 2 losses against a hobbled Clips team. Loss to the Bucks.

Winning the reg season was never the goal for this team, this season... So that stat doesn't matter a whole lot.

Vogel got pretty clearly out-coached against the Clips bot times, and the Lakers came out complacent against the Bucks, which is also basically his fault...

This thread may have been a bit of an over reaction, but at the same time, I still question our rotations at times, and some of the on court 'adjustments' just baffle me.

But he's not likely to get fired unless we can't win any games against the Clips or the Bucks...


Won against Denver but that's before they got their **** together but it's clear the Lakers are winning on the talent of ad and LeBron James. It seems like Vogel has no offensive sets that he normally runs? Im not an x and o guy maybe someone can tell me

I thought the PNR would be something the Lakers would use this year. With LeBron and AD. I question why is it not being run often and if Frank Vogel is just trying to hide it for the playoffs

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