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Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET

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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#81 » by Landsberger » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:11 am

snaquille oatmeal wrote:
Landsberger wrote:
snaquille oatmeal wrote:I think that you are failing to see Caruso for what he is. We are not saying he is an all star caliber player. What we are saying is that for an undrafted player one who made his bones in the G league, one who build himself up from two way contracts and one who is cheap as hell he is more than what you could ask for. Wanting him to be more than a solid player for us is ridiculous. So we are just appreciating that he is a solid player, that’s what we see. Name a player right now that is performing at a higher level that is getting paid the same or less than Caruso and you won’t find many and if you do whatever team has them they won’t let them go.


Agree 100%... however he is limited at this level and all of that makes no difference.... it's a great story and kudos to him for achieving it but in the end if he can't hit open shots and opposing teams sag off of him it really doesn't matter what he makes does it?

I think he's better offensively than what he's shown however the only real offense we've seen from him has been on very bad teams and in the G League. Some of that should translate eventually. Right now he's hesitating and overthinking it.

I guess the part of what you are saying and that I may be misunderstanding is you want him to be more than what he is.
It’s like if we give him a number...say 6, we say he is a great six, our six, the six that we need, yay our six. But you are saying is well in this league you have to be an 8 or you suck. That’s what I get from your argument.


Naw... you're misunderstanding me. Over the last 10 games or so he's been pretty much a ghost offensively. He's been good defensively. He is what he is. I agree. My initial comment was that he is risking becoming a liability to have in the game down the stretch because he isn't shooting and when he does it isn't going in. Until he shows some level of proficiency in that situation other teams will begin to leave him in favor of doubling Bron and/or Davis. The Bucks did that a lot in fact.

I've seen what you've seen in him. He's showed he can be a threat offensively however that was in some pretty different situations. I think he's one of those guys who's played most of his life initiating and now he's being asked to be a "spacer". That's not where his heads at it seems.

As for what I want him to be.... I think he needs to be aggressive when he gets the ball in space. Right now he's very passive. Not sure if that's a coaching thing or just a "I'm on a team with LeBron" thing. Time will tell.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#82 » by Landsberger » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:18 am

tamaraw08 wrote:
Landsberger wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
No one is his right mind would argue your concern. Caruso has been struggling while Rondo has shot well the past month or so and yet Alex has a higher EFG%, TS%, WS than Rondo so far. THey are tied in BPM AND ORTG.
Caruso is playing less minutes/game, takes 4.5 shots down from 7 attempts and yet the team is a + 8.7 PTS, +0.65 EFG% unlike Rondo's negative numbers when he is on the floor.
No a few have grumbled about how limited Derek Fisher was before, averaging under 40% FG, etc but his ability to learn his role, where to cut, rotate on defense etc etc were very beneficial to the Lakers cause before. Of course Derek was also very clutch in the playoffs.


Are you trying to compare Caruso to Fisher? Wow.... and what does Rondo have to do with Caruso's inability to demand attention on the offensive end?

I guess there is no ability to have a fair evaluation of Caruso here. I like the guy but I just don't see what a lot of others see in him. To me he's an easily replaceable role player.... albeit one with a cult following for some reason.


Yes, it sounds crazy to compare Fisher to Caruso if you just look at skill level and type of play but I'm referring to production and role esp when Derek was playing less than 24 mins/game at age 25 averaging 6 pts at 6 shots pretty similar to Caruso's.
I mentioned Rondo bec you seemed to like him way much more and I pointed out that their impact are pretty much the same even though I pointed out the difference of their roles. When the Lakers were losing those 4 games, you seemed so focused on Caruso's limitations , well Rondo cooled down too, in 5 losses Rondo shot 21% from 3pt area, 31%FG% with 25 pts on 32 attempts.
I'm not bashing Rondo and I have defended him against the bigbird etc too just like I have defended Caruso.


Rondo fills a spot on the team and I don't see it necessarily in conflict with Caruso. Bradley is the guy I'd compare to Caruso as far as being in the game late. Granted the skill level between either and Fisher isn't a big gap the BBIQ and ability to cope with pressure is. Fisher drove me nuts during the regular season... so did Horry but neither is remembered for what they did in the regular season.

As I pointed out in the post above.... Caruso is one of those guys who's been an initiator all of his basketball career. Putting a guy like that off the ball to space the floor is on the head coach somewhat. That's not what got him in this situation in the first place. I like what he brings on the defensive end and in short stretches as an initiator but he's got a ways to go to be a threat off the ball in close games with Bron on the floor. Let's all hope he can make the adjustment.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#83 » by danfantastk32 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:17 am

Landsberger wrote: As I pointed out in the post above.... Caruso is one of those guys who's been an initiator all of his basketball career. Putting a guy like that off the ball to space the floor is on the head coach somewhat.


How's that on the head of the coach? See...I'm not too concerned with the cult of Caruso around here. The guy is a sub-par role player at best. I will not stand to have our coach in any way interfere with what Lebron wants to do in the name of Caruso. Undies can get twisted left, and right...but I could give a rip. Caruso gives us almost nothing. He's an afterthought at best. No coach in his right mind would spend a half-second worrying about his 'comfort' out there, to the detriment of guys like Lebron.

This whole cult of Caruso thing is cute...but it's actually as old as chat boards. There's always that "backup quarterback" on the Lakers that the crowd gets into. I remember the whole season of hate for D'antoni because of the 10-man roster. We had this allstar in the making named Devin Ebanks who never got playing time...."thanks to that moron D'antoni". Every freakin game that went on. And of course Ebanks left the Lakers and sank like a stone into the abyss. So did Nance. So did Shannon Brown. So did Jordan Farmar. And Ronnie Turiaf...and on and on. Kareen Rush.....Janero Pargo....and on and on.

Landsberger....your initial point was right. Stick to it. You'll forget more B-Ball and analytics than half the folks here know. People comparing Caruso to Fisher aught to have made that abundantly clear. And Fisher was a role player! Great role...Laker legend, had some HUGE moments. I LOVE me some Fish. But he was the lettuce on the Kobe burger, and nothing more. And I won't even dignify comparing Caruso to Fisher.

So hell no....Vogel better not even ask Lebron to look to his left more, if Lebron doesn't want to.

I'll take your initial point and run with it: Caruso is rocking like an 8 PER out there. The guy better start injecting himself into the game more, or else there's no reason to have him out on the floor. He's a detriment.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#84 » by kblo247 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:38 am

danfantastk32 wrote:
Landsberger wrote: As I pointed out in the post above.... Caruso is one of those guys who's been an initiator all of his basketball career. Putting a guy like that off the ball to space the floor is on the head coach somewhat.


How's that on the head of the coach? See...I'm not too concerned with the cult of Caruso around here. The guy is a sub-par role player at best. I will not stand to have our coach in any way interfere with what Lebron wants to do in the name of Caruso. Undies can get twisted left, and right...but I could give a rip. Caruso gives us almost nothing. He's an afterthought at best. No coach in his right mind would spend a half-second worrying about his 'comfort' out there, to the detriment of guys like Lebron.

This whole cult of Caruso thing is cute...but it's actually as old as chat boards. There's always that "backup quarterback" on the Lakers that the crowd gets into. I remember the whole season of hate for D'antoni because of the 10-man roster. We had this allstar in the making named Devin Ebanks who never got playing time...."thanks to that moron D'antoni". Every freakin game that went on. And of course Ebanks left the Lakers and sank like a stone into the abyss. So did Nance. So did Shannon Brown. So did Jordan Farmar. And Ronnie Turiaf...and on and on. Kareen Rush.....Janero Pargo....and on and on.

Landsberger....your initial point was right. Stick to it. You'll forget more B-Ball and analytics than half the folks here know. People comparing Caruso to Fisher aught to have made that abundantly clear. And Fisher was a role player! Great role...Laker legend, had some HUGE moments. I LOVE me some Fish. But he was the lettuce on the Kobe burger, and nothing more. And I won't even dignify comparing Caruso to Fisher.

So hell no....Vogel better not even ask Lebron to look to his left more, if Lebron doesn't want to.

I'll take your initial point and run with it: Caruso is rocking like an 8 PER out there. The guy better start injecting himself into the game more, or else there's no reason to have him out on the floor. He's a detriment.

He is not a detriment. He’s also not a key cog. He is a niche firmly. And I do mean a niche like a Devean George or Sasha Vujacic. He can be useful for 10-15 minutes a night. That’s the same role Bradley and McGee have except they start. And that’s not a shot at Caruso at all, a guy like Anthony Johnson made a nba career out of doing that because Jason Kidd for example, 10-15 steady minutes, as did Charlie Ward and others.

Only thing I disagree with is Nance. Nance has been fairly consistent even in Cleveland with playing the right way, producing, and not causing trouble. He’s a solid guy through and through
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#85 » by tamaraw08 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:05 pm

Landsberger wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
Landsberger wrote:
Are you trying to compare Caruso to Fisher? Wow.... and what does Rondo have to do with Caruso's inability to demand attention on the offensive end?

I guess there is no ability to have a fair evaluation of Caruso here. I like the guy but I just don't see what a lot of others see in him. To me he's an easily replaceable role player.... albeit one with a cult following for some reason.


Yes, it sounds crazy to compare Fisher to Caruso if you just look at skill level and type of play but I'm referring to production and role esp when Derek was playing less than 24 mins/game at age 25 averaging 6 pts at 6 shots pretty similar to Caruso's.
I mentioned Rondo bec you seemed to like him way much more and I pointed out that their impact are pretty much the same even though I pointed out the difference of their roles. When the Lakers were losing those 4 games, you seemed so focused on Caruso's limitations , well Rondo cooled down too, in 5 losses Rondo shot 21% from 3pt area, 31%FG% with 25 pts on 32 attempts.
I'm not bashing Rondo and I have defended him against the bigbird etc too just like I have defended Caruso.


Rondo fills a spot on the team and I don't see it necessarily in conflict with Caruso. Bradley is the guy I'd compare to Caruso as far as being in the game late. Granted the skill level between either and Fisher isn't a big gap the BBIQ and ability to cope with pressure is. Fisher drove me nuts during the regular season... so did Horry but neither is remembered for what they did in the regular season.

As I pointed out in the post above.... Caruso is one of those guys who's been an initiator all of his basketball career. Putting a guy like that off the ball to space the floor is on the head coach somewhat. That's not what got him in this situation in the first place. I like what he brings on the defensive end and in short stretches as an initiator but he's got a ways to go to be a threat off the ball in close games with Bron on the floor. Let's all hope he can make the adjustment.

Let me just say again that I am also concern about his ability to produce on offense come playoff time, but I have the same concerns about Bradley, Rondo too. Avery has been shooting 23.5 % from the 3pt line this year for 19 games so far :( . Yes, he is not passing up shots like Caruso but a miss is still a miss, almost like me sighing when ever AD would miss 3-5 3pt shots/game instead of going for a higher % shot. Probably Alex is thinking the same thing, why take a low% shot when I can pass to AD down low or let James do something better with it? When I first heard that they signed Daniels and Cook, I envisioned them to be that lethal 3pt shooter who will punish teams for double teaming AD and clogging the lanes for James but it seems like their deficiencies have forced Vogel to bench them instead.
Bradley did a great job on Doncic but I'm not sure if you realize that Caruso also covered Luca and did a pretty good job too. He is not as quick a Avery but there are things that Alex can do better than Bradley, Cook, Daniels like the ability to rotate to taller SGs and SFs esp in the perimeter, he plays the passing lanes better leading to interceptions and draws more charges (10th in the league among guards)top 20 in deflections per 36 mins etc.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#86 » by Landsberger » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:06 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
Landsberger wrote: As I pointed out in the post above.... Caruso is one of those guys who's been an initiator all of his basketball career. Putting a guy like that off the ball to space the floor is on the head coach somewhat.


How's that on the head of the coach?


Without belaboring this point to death.... He's a guy who's gotten to where he is by having the ball. People mentioned his success in the G-League for example. He wasn't a floor spacer playing off the ball with one of the best players who has every played. He was an initiator or a primary player. It is a very tough move to go from a guy who is responsible for the action to one that plays off of it. It's especially hard for PG's to do that. To make that transition at the pro level adds another layer.

How is it on the coach?... He should maximize Caruso when LeBron isn't on the court to get the best balance out of him. He actually is much better in a faster paced game.... not the walk it up one on 5 finishing sequences we're seeing right now.

To end this.... I made an observation based on about 10 games of keying on him to get a feel for his entire game. He plays hard all of the time but he's very limited in many respects. He had 3 straight possessions down the stretch where he showed those limitations and I commented.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#87 » by danfantastk32 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:07 pm

kblo247 wrote:He is not a detriment. He’s also not a key cog. He is a niche firmly. And I do mean a niche like a Devean George or Sasha Vujacic. He can be useful for 10-15 minutes a night. That’s the same role Bradley and McGee have except they start. And that’s not a shot at Caruso at all, a guy like Anthony Johnson made a nba career out of doing that because Jason Kidd for example, 10-15 steady minutes, as did Charlie Ward and others.

Only thing I disagree with is Nance. Nance has been fairly consistent even in Cleveland with playing the right way, producing, and not causing trouble. He’s a solid guy through and through


The detriment comment is more about when he's not producing. 6 points, 2 boards, assist, and block in 15 minutes (his last game) is prob not the end of the world. But it's right on the edge. I'm not blanket saying Caruso is a detriment.

To be clear...I got no beef with Caruso. If he becomes an allstar, thats awesome. I just don't wanna see the coach moving guys minutes or trying to alter Lebron's game for some deep bench guy who's barely producing. When he has a good game, I'll say it. When he's not producing, I'll say it. I have no investment in "being on the right side" of the great Caruso debate of 19-20. Personally, I think he'll be dropped / moved in a couple years, and will hopefully find a deep spot on Charlotte or Detroit or something.....get another nice contract, and then disappear - Like so many of our guys do.

Caruso brings some good effort on the defensive end. The coach has clearly seen this, and gives him minutes despite many games where he doesn't get involved. When Caruso does get involved, it's a nice thing.

As for Nance....8 1/2 points and 7 rebounds in 25 minutes is not exactly a needle mover. Nice bench piece I guess. Again...no beef with Nance either. I'm just saying.....we get these guys almost every year that people think are diamonds being held back by the evil coach...or mean Mr Lebron...or whatever. I think Nance' main issue was the constant sprains, and naggy injuries he'd get.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#88 » by Landsberger » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:13 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:Let me just say again that I am also concern about his ability to produce on offense come playoff time, but I have the same concerns about Bradley, Rondo too. Avery has been shooting 23.5 % from the 3pt line this year for 19 games so far :( . Yes, he is not passing up shots like Caruso but a miss is still a miss, almost like me sighing when ever AD would miss 3-5 3pt shots/game instead of going for a higher % shot.


If you look at just about any player's 3 point shooting over a given year you'll see significant streaks. Only a few player consistently hit their overall percentages on a nightly basis. That's one reason I don't think any team should rely on that shot and thankfully we have multiple inside players to overcome the streakiness of that shot. Bradley will most likely hit a hot streak.... KCP will hit a cold one and Rondo will hit them again..... then it will all reverse and then reverse again. Taking what Bradley is doing over a few games coming off of a leg injury isn't really a good sample IMHO.

Overall I think people get too hung up on a shooter's 3 point %. You have to shoot 10 a game to make a 4% difference in overall percentage make any meaningful difference. No one here is shooting that many.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#89 » by danfantastk32 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:22 pm

Landsberger wrote:To end this.... I made an observation based on about 10 games of keying on him to get a feel for his entire game. He plays hard all of the time but he's very limited in many respects. He had 3 straight possessions down the stretch where he showed those limitations and I commented.


My man...I'm right with you on this topic.

I understand the coach is the one who puts guys in positions to succeed..my point was WHY would our coach bother? The only thing I disagree with you about this topic, is that I don't think anyone (especially not the coach) should be doing anything to disrupt the team in the name of 'getting more out of Caruso'. You said it best. He's incredibly limited. So throw him in the conditions that best suit the team...not him....and let him sink or swim.

Now...to Caruso's credit, this has been done, and he's really making a valiant go of it. He's playing hard D, and doing what it takes to earn a spot as best he can. I absolutely have nothing but respect for the guy, and would like nothing more than to see the guy start draining 3's....boost his stats a bit, and become a key bench guy. There would be no better justice.

Until then, put him out there as it best suits us. He'll rise, or drift off. There is exactly zero concern that we're somehow watching a potential all-star (or even anything close to one) drift off to sea through misuse. Our coach has no business wasting time on maximizing this guy's talents.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#90 » by danfantastk32 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:37 pm

tamaraw08 wrote: Let me just say again that I am also concern about his ability to produce on offense come playoff time, but I have the same concerns about Bradley, Rondo too. Avery has been shooting 23.5 % from the 3pt line this year for 19 games so far :( . Yes, he is not passing up shots like Caruso but a miss is still a miss, almost like me sighing when ever AD would miss 3-5 3pt shots/game instead of going for a higher % shot. Probably Alex is thinking the same thing, why take a low% shot when I can pass to AD down low or let James do something better with it? When I first heard that they signed Daniels and Cook, I envisioned them to be that lethal 3pt shooter who will punish teams for double teaming AD and clogging the lanes for James but it seems like their deficiencies have forced Vogel to bench them instead.
Bradley did a great job on Doncic but I'm not sure if you realize that Caruso also covered Luca and did a pretty good job too. He is not as quick a Avery but there are things that Alex can do better than Bradley, Cook, Daniels like the ability to rotate to taller SGs and SFs esp in the perimeter, he plays the passing lanes better leading to interceptions and draws more charges (10th in the league among guards)top 20 in deflections per 36 mins etc.


This is where I think the coach is doing a fine job. The team has really bought into the defense thing. It's a point of pride with the team. How much credit should AD / Lebron get (our "leaders") how much is on guys like Green and Rondo who bring an attitude and workmanship to a team? I think credit prob aughta be thrown around to everyone. Guys are playing D.

To your first points: this is what you get when you sign max players, and then plug holes with the min guys that are left. We waited for the Kawhi sweepstakes....and prob lost out on a couple guys who can do more things than the guys we got. At this point, it is what it is. This is our team. It'd be nice to add a guy like Iggy, but those odds are long. This is what we got. We're not terrible, but we do have a bunch of guys who hung around waiting to see if we'd give them the min for a reason.

It's possible we get Cousins back for playoffs. Each injury makes things seem less likely, but maybe we get a nice 16-9 guy outa him. That would be an absolute 'game changer'. Another hope we pin on is Kuzma. If Kuzma could become more than he is, then we'd have a real 3rd option there. Seems doubtful to me, at this point. I think he's regressing, if anything.

Green / KCP / McGee / Dwight are what they are. They are the Fox - Fisher - Horry's of the team. They do their thing, and sometimes you get something big out of them....but usually it's just steady work.

The rest are what they are. They drop an occasional nice 3. They play D...and they make the min for a reason. They are surrounded by limitations. Don't pin any hopes on them. If you do...it'll just be disappointment.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#91 » by danfantastk32 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:44 pm

It's alot of Ifs...and prob not worth arguing. Let's hope we get Cousins back...and let's hope we get Kuzma back on track.

Anyhow happy New years all. Enjoy the festivities....and make it home alive.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#92 » by Landsberger » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:48 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
Landsberger wrote:To end this.... I made an observation based on about 10 games of keying on him to get a feel for his entire game. He plays hard all of the time but he's very limited in many respects. He had 3 straight possessions down the stretch where he showed those limitations and I commented.


My man...I'm right with you on this topic.

I understand the coach is the one who puts guys in positions to succeed..my point was WHY would our coach bother? The only thing I disagree with you about this topic, is that I don't think anyone (especially not the coach) should be doing anything to disrupt the team in the name of 'getting more out of Caruso'. You said it best. He's incredibly limited. So throw him in the conditions that best suit the team...not him....and let him sink or swim.

Now...to Caruso's credit, this has been done, and he's really making a valiant go of it. He's playing hard D, and doing what it takes to earn a spot as best he can. I absolutely have nothing but respect for the guy, and would like nothing more than to see the guy start draining 3's....boost his stats a bit, and become a key bench guy. There would be no better justice.

Until then, put him out there as it best suits us. He'll rise, or drift off. There is exactly zero concern that we're somehow watching a potential all-star (or even anything close to one) drift off to sea through misuse. Our coach has no business wasting time on maximizing this guy's talents.


He's been a pleasant surprise for a team that waited a long time in FA for Leonard and had very slim pickings to choose from. This team will look a little different after next offseason when we can adjust a few positions.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#93 » by tamaraw08 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:45 pm

Landsberger wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:Let me just say again that I am also concern about his ability to produce on offense come playoff time, but I have the same concerns about Bradley, Rondo too. Avery has been shooting 23.5 % from the 3pt line this year for 19 games so far :( . Yes, he is not passing up shots like Caruso but a miss is still a miss, almost like me sighing when ever AD would miss 3-5 3pt shots/game instead of going for a higher % shot.


If you look at just about any player's 3 point shooting over a given year you'll see significant streaks. Only a few player consistently hit their overall percentages on a nightly basis. That's one reason I don't think any team should rely on that shot and thankfully we have multiple inside players to overcome the streakiness of that shot. Bradley will most likely hit a hot streak.... KCP will hit a cold one and Rondo will hit them again..... then it will all reverse and then reverse again. Taking what Bradley is doing over a few games coming off of a leg injury isn't really a good sample IMHO.

Overall I think people get too hung up on a shooter's 3 point %. You have to shoot 10 a game to make a 4% difference in overall percentage make any meaningful difference. No one here is shooting that many.


Few games? I mentioned his entire 19 games played for the year, not 3 or 7 or 10 but yes, he will likely find his range for a few games then like you said, will taper off eventually but he is not exactly a reliable/consistent one from that distance IMO.
About having to take certain number of shots to improve one's FG%, yes, the mathematical calculation is logical but there's more to that IMO. Opposing coaches would emphasize to their team who needs more attention and better coverage for a player like a Danny Green (52% right corner last year) on thecorners than a player like a Marcus Smart (31%) or a Ricky Rubio who at times who actually get dared to shoot. It's playing the percentages like In baseball they do intentional walks etc, basketball they had a Hack a Shaq and instructing certain defenders to float/roam and/or clog the lane instead of staying home to bad shooters. Teams now are pretty deep into this advanced metrics and playing these percentages but Again it's just my opinion,
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#94 » by lazybatman » Wed Jan 1, 2020 3:55 am

Hey Guys,

What do you think of Lebron going totally assist happy the last two games against +.500 opponents?

He was super efficient with 29 assists and 3 turnovers. I'd be happy to see this continue for a while and see where it goes. I'd like to see him average 18-20 pts of 10-12 shots and 13-15 assists per game.

I get the feeling our shooters, and they are quality shooters, can only get more efficient as they get more opportunities, get into some rhythm and start feeling the joy of contributing and winning. Can't help but salivate at the thought of a more efficient, less top heavy offence.

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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#95 » by Landsberger » Wed Jan 1, 2020 4:21 am

tamaraw08 wrote:
Landsberger wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:Let me just say again that I am also concern about his ability to produce on offense come playoff time, but I have the same concerns about Bradley, Rondo too. Avery has been shooting 23.5 % from the 3pt line this year for 19 games so far :( . Yes, he is not passing up shots like Caruso but a miss is still a miss, almost like me sighing when ever AD would miss 3-5 3pt shots/game instead of going for a higher % shot.


If you look at just about any player's 3 point shooting over a given year you'll see significant streaks. Only a few player consistently hit their overall percentages on a nightly basis. That's one reason I don't think any team should rely on that shot and thankfully we have multiple inside players to overcome the streakiness of that shot. Bradley will most likely hit a hot streak.... KCP will hit a cold one and Rondo will hit them again..... then it will all reverse and then reverse again. Taking what Bradley is doing over a few games coming off of a leg injury isn't really a good sample IMHO.

Overall I think people get too hung up on a shooter's 3 point %. You have to shoot 10 a game to make a 4% difference in overall percentage make any meaningful difference. No one here is shooting that many.


Few games? I mentioned his entire 19 games played for the year, not 3 or 7 or 10 but yes, he will likely find his range for a few games then like you said, will taper off eventually but he is not exactly a reliable/consistent one from that distance IMO.
About having to take certain number of shots to improve one's FG%, yes, the mathematical calculation is logical but there's more to that IMO. Opposing coaches would emphasize to their team who needs more attention and better coverage for a player like a Danny Green (52% right corner last year) on thecorners than a player like a Marcus Smart (31%) or a Ricky Rubio who at times who actually get dared to shoot. It's playing the percentages like In baseball they do intentional walks etc, basketball they had a Hack a Shaq and instructing certain defenders to float/roam and/or clog the lane instead of staying home to bad shooters. Teams now are pretty deep into this advanced metrics and playing these percentages but Again it's just my opinion,


If you think that in 18 seconds (about average on the plus side of the court) with all of the switching going on in today's game a player is going to both track and remember that Green is 51% from the corner vs Smart who's 31% you're not being realistic.

These guys don't have those stat sheets with them on the court.... Then we get to the situational aspect of those so called "advanced stats"... how many were wide open.... how many in pressure situations... how many on the road.... how many at home.... how many when the player has played over 24 minutes... how many when it's a back to back game... how many after a game in a party city.... how many in garbage time... how many in nationally televised games.... how many fully healthy... how many late in the season... and on and on.... So many variables not accounted for in this muck that is not validated. Then even if you did nothing about it is predictive because you would need to predict each of those variables... when they would happen and who would be where and in what situation.

What you have to understand about these "advanced stats" is that you are the product... they exist to aggregate your data via clicks... websites aren't free.... even this one.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#96 » by tamaraw08 » Wed Jan 1, 2020 4:14 pm

Landsberger wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
Landsberger wrote:
If you look at just about any player's 3 point shooting over a given year you'll see significant streaks. Only a few player consistently hit their overall percentages on a nightly basis. That's one reason I don't think any team should rely on that shot and thankfully we have multiple inside players to overcome the streakiness of that shot. Bradley will most likely hit a hot streak.... KCP will hit a cold one and Rondo will hit them again..... then it will all reverse and then reverse again. Taking what Bradley is doing over a few games coming off of a leg injury isn't really a good sample IMHO.

Overall I think people get too hung up on a shooter's 3 point %. You have to shoot 10 a game to make a 4% difference in overall percentage make any meaningful difference. No one here is shooting that many.


Few games? I mentioned his entire 19 games played for the year, not 3 or 7 or 10 but yes, he will likely find his range for a few games then like you said, will taper off eventually but he is not exactly a reliable/consistent one from that distance IMO.
About having to take certain number of shots to improve one's FG%, yes, the mathematical calculation is logical but there's more to that IMO. Opposing coaches would emphasize to their team who needs more attention and better coverage for a player like a Danny Green (52% right corner last year) on thecorners than a player like a Marcus Smart (31%) or a Ricky Rubio who at times who actually get dared to shoot. It's playing the percentages like In baseball they do intentional walks etc, basketball they had a Hack a Shaq and instructing certain defenders to float/roam and/or clog the lane instead of staying home to bad shooters. Teams now are pretty deep into this advanced metrics and playing these percentages but Again it's just my opinion,


If you think that in 18 seconds (about average on the plus side of the court) with all of the switching going on in today's game a player is going to both track and remember that Green is 51% from the corner vs Smart who's 31% you're not being realistic.

These guys don't have those stat sheets with them on the court.... Then we get to the situational aspect of those so called "advanced stats"... how many were wide open.... how many in pressure situations... how many on the road.... how many at home.... how many when the player has played over 24 minutes... how many when it's a back to back game... how many after a game in a party city.... how many in garbage time... how many in nationally televised games.... how many fully healthy... how many late in the season... and on and on.... So many variables not accounted for in this muck that is not validated. Then even if you did nothing about it is predictive because you would need to predict each of those variables... when they would happen and who would be where and in what situation.

What you have to understand about these "advanced stats" is that you are the product... they exist to aggregate your data via clicks... websites aren't free.... even this one.

Well of course players would not have these stat sheets on the court but they talk about it during film sessions and walk through specifically the morning before of the game for their initial defensive sets. Yes, defenders would occasionally forget and close down on bad shooters instead of daring them ESPECIALLY ON BROKEN PLAYS, but it's bec of the hundreds of defensive drills they have before but leaving players who have a reputation of bricking or currently in a long shooting slump has been happening. Teams have done it with Rondo (even back when he played at Boston), Caruso etc and it's logical to do it when you weigh the probability vs AD feasting inside. It's beyond just hacking bad FT shooters now like Dallas did last game with Dwight.
Those variables that you mentioned, nationally televised games,garbage time, party city etc, if you think those are pertinent, then we can agree to disagree. Brian Shaw mentioned it when I attended a Laker open door practice at Staples a couple years back, they assigned Stanford guy ex Laker Mark Madsen to weed out the non pertinent advanced analytics so they don't overload information on the players.
There's a reason why reputable shooters like Seth Curry gets paid 5.5 mil/year more than Rajon Rondo who is much smarter and better passer or much more than Bradley. IMO.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#97 » by danfantastk32 » Wed Jan 1, 2020 5:49 pm

lazybatman wrote:Hey Guys, What do you think of Lebron going totally assist happy the last two games against +.500 opponents?

He was super efficient with 29 assists and 3 turnovers. I'd be happy to see this continue for a while and see where it goes. I'd like to see him average 18-20 pts of 10-12 shots and 13-15 assists per game.

I get the feeling our shooters, and they are quality shooters, can only get more efficient as they get more opportunities, get into some rhythm and start feeling the joy of contributing and winning. Can't help but salivate at the thought of a more efficient, less top heavy offence.


I like a pass-first type game. Move the ball, until an open shot is there. <------Key point there: Until an open shot it there. You don't want to pass it again...just to make some quota per play, or something.

And I think that's the key. Whether people like or not....Lebron and AD are the most talented guys on the team by a good margin, and they also gobble up a massive % of the teams salary. This team needs to build around them, and their strengths. Not vice-versa.

I want Lebron to take what the game gives him, and what he's comfortable with. If that's 15 assists....great. If it's 5 assists, fine. Go do what makes Lebron comfortable. Not Green. Not Rondo. Not Dwight. Lebron is a perfectly willing passer, and that makes it easier. The coach should be doing whatever it takes to get our two stars in rhythm, and purring along. Leave them to sprinkle the opportunities to the others, as they see fit.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#98 » by Landsberger » Wed Jan 1, 2020 8:33 pm

danfantastk32 wrote:
lazybatman wrote:Hey Guys, What do you think of Lebron going totally assist happy the last two games against +.500 opponents?

He was super efficient with 29 assists and 3 turnovers. I'd be happy to see this continue for a while and see where it goes. I'd like to see him average 18-20 pts of 10-12 shots and 13-15 assists per game.

I get the feeling our shooters, and they are quality shooters, can only get more efficient as they get more opportunities, get into some rhythm and start feeling the joy of contributing and winning. Can't help but salivate at the thought of a more efficient, less top heavy offence.


I like a pass-first type game. Move the ball, until an open shot is there. <------Key point there: Until an open shot it there. You don't want to pass it again...just to make some quota per play, or something.

And I think that's the key. Whether people like or not....Lebron and AD are the most talented guys on the team by a good margin, and they also gobble up a massive % of the teams salary. This team needs to build around them, and their strengths. Not vice-versa.

I want Lebron to take what the game gives him, and what he's comfortable with. If that's 15 assists....great. If it's 5 assists, fine. Go do what makes Lebron comfortable. Not Green. Not Rondo. Not Dwight. Lebron is a perfectly willing passer, and that makes it easier. The coach should be doing whatever it takes to get our two stars in rhythm, and purring along. Leave them to sprinkle the opportunities to the others, as they see fit.


I don't have it in front of me but I'm not sure outside of Magic and Cousy any team with the assist leader has won a championship. I think I remember reading that they only did it once each. Having one guy dominate the ball just to pass it has never been a path to a great team. Great teams have a level of diversity and rarely do you see the leading scorer or assist guy on a championship team. It happens but rarely. Jordan in scoring is an exception.

Assists are one of those stats everyone loves to tout yet they don't translate to team success as much as their popularity would suggest. A group of 5 guys averaging 4 assists is better than 5 with one guy averaging 11 most times. I'd also point out that what it takes to get an assist credited has become so subjective it's basically making the stat useless. Sometimes we see assists given when you pass to a player on the wing who makes 2 or 3 fakes and then dribbles 2 or more times to get a shot off.
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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#99 » by lazybatman » Thu Jan 2, 2020 2:30 am

Landsberger wrote:
danfantastk32 wrote:
lazybatman wrote:Hey Guys, What do you think of Lebron going totally assist happy the last two games against +.500 opponents?

He was super efficient with 29 assists and 3 turnovers. I'd be happy to see this continue for a while and see where it goes. I'd like to see him average 18-20 pts of 10-12 shots and 13-15 assists per game.

I get the feeling our shooters, and they are quality shooters, can only get more efficient as they get more opportunities, get into some rhythm and start feeling the joy of contributing and winning. Can't help but salivate at the thought of a more efficient, less top heavy offence.


I like a pass-first type game. Move the ball, until an open shot is there. <------Key point there: Until an open shot it there. You don't want to pass it again...just to make some quota per play, or something.

And I think that's the key. Whether people like or not....Lebron and AD are the most talented guys on the team by a good margin, and they also gobble up a massive % of the teams salary. This team needs to build around them, and their strengths. Not vice-versa.

I want Lebron to take what the game gives him, and what he's comfortable with. If that's 15 assists....great. If it's 5 assists, fine. Go do what makes Lebron comfortable. Not Green. Not Rondo. Not Dwight. Lebron is a perfectly willing passer, and that makes it easier. The coach should be doing whatever it takes to get our two stars in rhythm, and purring along. Leave them to sprinkle the opportunities to the others, as they see fit.


I don't have it in front of me but I'm not sure outside of Magic and Cousy any team with the assist leader has won a championship. I think I remember reading that they only did it once each. Having one guy dominate the ball just to pass it has never been a path to a great team. Great teams have a level of diversity and rarely do you see the leading scorer or assist guy on a championship team. It happens but rarely. Jordan in scoring is an exception.

Assists are one of those stats everyone loves to tout yet they don't translate to team success as much as their popularity would suggest. A group of 5 guys averaging 4 assists is better than 5 with one guy averaging 11 most times. I'd also point out that what it takes to get an assist credited has become so subjective it's basically making the stat useless. Sometimes we see assists given when you pass to a player on the wing who makes 2 or 3 fakes and then dribbles 2 or more times to get a shot off.
Good points all across and my apologies for not explaining myself better.

My point is 3>2.

Quinn Cook, Danny Green, KCP, Dudley, Troy Daniels are just better shooters than Bron, but none except QC can create **** on their own. Don't you guys think it'll be a lot more efficient in terms of points per shot yeild and creating interior spacing for AD, Lebron & Kuz if those guys got more shots 3 pt shots thanks via drive/post up and kick action.

I think more shots for them would translate to a higher comfort level and better team 3 pt fg%.

Just an idea, cos I'm getting sick of getting found out on offense in the clutch against quality defences lately. Lebron telegraphs his 3 pointers like a couple of weeks in advance. No other way Pat Bev gets that block on a 6'9 guy. I think he's the greatest thing since Mike retired, but just cringe everytime he takes the dribble dribble 3 instead of driving into the weak SOBs.


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Re: Game 33: Los Angeles Lakers (25-7) vs. Dallas Mavericks (21-10) - 9:30 PM ET 

Post#100 » by danfantastk32 » Thu Jan 2, 2020 6:31 am

lazybatman wrote:I think more shots for them would translate to a higher comfort level and better team 3 pt fg%.

Just an idea, cos I'm getting sick of getting found out on offense in the clutch against quality defences lately. Lebron telegraphs his 3 pointers like a couple of weeks in advance. No other way Pat Bev gets that block on a 6'9 guy. I think he's the greatest thing since Mike retired, but just cringe everytime he takes the dribble dribble 3 instead of driving into the weak SOBs.


I do agree with you. We're pretty predictable, and we're gonna have issues in the playoffs against solid teams. Lebron and AD can't shoulder it all. It would behoove them to throw some weight onto other players' shoulders, and work out who rises to the occasion throughout the season, instead of in the playoffs. I had hoped Kuz would take another step this season, and be that guy.

I just want to make sure that whatever we do, it's within the flow of AD and Lebron's game. This is where Vogel earns his keep. He needs to get them to rely a little more on other guys...without making them "relying more on other guys"....if that makes any sense.

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