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Vogel’s ‘dilemma’ and great opportunity

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Vogel’s ‘dilemma’ and great opportunity 

Post#1 » by stan francisco » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:14 pm

He is about team ball. LBJ is a brilliant passer, but not about the same type of team ball as Vogel’s.

To cut to the chase, the team ball that the Lakers played against the Thunder was at times pure poetry in motion. It was exactly the type of basketball that I personally love to watch. Like Real Madrid soccer where the ball moves as if on a string around the whole team with one touch passes. All five touched the ball in many more offensive sets in the game LBJ and AD sat. They played for each other and moved off the ball as a five man unit.

I hear you, of course when you put two of the world’s top three players on the floor, the other three become periphery by default.

This is where Vogel’s dilemma lies. But I’d like to argue it’s an opportunity.

Hang with me for a second. Watch the Thunder game again. Or even just the highlights. Study the movement off the ball. Study how the ball moved as if on a string. Everyone set screens for everyone. I can still see it in my head from that game.

Now imagine if two of the cogs in that five man machine were LBJ and AD. Playing as just one part out of five in a system.

AD does it already.

LBJ doesn’t. He’s brilliant at what he does but doesn’t genuinely seem interested in being subservient to a system relying on five players touching the ball. He likes to control it and strong arm it.

And why should he change? He’s LeBron James. It’s hard to argue against his success, his APG. He’s playing great! But he’s getting older.

For his own career longevity’s sake, I hope he watches the replay of that game and starts figuring out a way of perhaps changing his LeBron ball into something a little bit closer to Vogel style five-man team ball. It would be incredible to be able to run both, on purpose! Unguardable.

Simply put, I think LBJ should go to Vogel and ask him to run more off the ball movement drills and sets for him. But he probably won’t. And it would be for good reason.

If I were LeBron, though, watching that game from the sidelines, I would’ve run over to the coach and asked him how we could play that way when I’m on the court.

That was some seriously good team ball. If LeBron would allow Vogel to coach him into becoming a cog in the wheel as opposed to ball dominant, we are in a dynasty run.

Kudos Vogel! Call PJ to talk about it.

PG: James[34], Bradley, Rondo, Cook
SG: Caruso[28], Pope, Daniels, THT
SF: Kuzma[28], Green, THT, Caroline
PF: Davis[34], Kuzma, Dudley, Cacok
C: McGee[24], Howard, Kostas, (DMC)

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Cousins | C Howard

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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#2 » by iamworthy » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:25 pm

There's no dilemma, the team operates as it does because that's how LeBron wants it. In the summertime LeBron made a statement saying he was playing point guard this year, they then asked Vogel and I think he said he hasn't made any decisions yet. Guess what happened, LeBron is ruining point. I also think your assuming way too much after one game.
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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#3 » by stan francisco » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:40 pm

iamworthy wrote:There's no dilemma, the team operates as it does because that's how LeBron wants it. In the summertime LeBron made a statement saying he was playing point guard this year, they then asked Vogel and I think he said he hasn't made any decisions yet. Guess what happened, LeBron is ruining point. I also think your assuming way too much after one game.


It helps when everyone knocks down their shots, indeed. Nevertheless, they played the right way, hit or miss win or loss.

He’s the coach. They played great. We won. Credit where credit is due.

PG: James[34], Bradley, Rondo, Cook
SG: Caruso[28], Pope, Daniels, THT
SF: Kuzma[28], Green, THT, Caroline
PF: Davis[34], Kuzma, Dudley, Cacok
C: McGee[24], Howard, Kostas, (DMC)

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Cousins | C Howard

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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#4 » by Beethoven » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:02 pm

Vogel's got to lay off the Panda express 3-item combos and Venti Frappuccinos at work so he can get into some shape to get in there w the fellas during practice.
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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#5 » by stan francisco » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:32 am

Beethoven wrote:Vogel's got to lay off the Panda express 3-item combos and Venti Frappuccinos at work so he can get into some shape to get in there w the fellas during practice.


You mean like Phil did for his last 11 rings? Not a necessity for able coaching but obviously would be good for his health. PJ, Pop, Kerr ... They didn’t exactly get in there and mix it up with the players.

PG: James[34], Bradley, Rondo, Cook
SG: Caruso[28], Pope, Daniels, THT
SF: Kuzma[28], Green, THT, Caroline
PF: Davis[34], Kuzma, Dudley, Cacok
C: McGee[24], Howard, Kostas, (DMC)

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Cousins | C Howard

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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#6 » by thebigbird » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:29 pm

They also shot 15-32 from 3 against OKC, 14-26 without rondo's 1-6. Yeah, things look good when the 3s are falling. When they weren't against Denver they got blown out by 24 without lebron. Vogel doesn't have a dilemma.
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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#7 » by Landsberger » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:05 am

In the OKC game we played inspired defense and still scored 60 points in the paint(right in line with our previous games with the big 2) We pushed the pace all game long and got everyone involved. We didn't try and win the game from the 3 point line.... which is great. Much of that was Vogel/Rondo IMHO.
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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#8 » by LAKESHOW » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:48 am

Nice thread topic. I remember an interview with Jax where he said, when talking with Shaq before starting the job, he said he was hoping that while explaining to Shaq that he had to change his game play, weight, etc...that he hoped that Shaq would listen, obey and trust. Trust in what? That his 6 rings would convince shaq to employ Jaxs gameplan. Shaq did, rest is history.
Vogel doesnt of course, have that championship experience to point to.
Maybe this is where staffers can help bring 2 sides to find middleground
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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#9 » by First Take » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:39 am

I want to see Dwight being apart of the offense. He can bully so many of the 5's.
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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#10 » by stan francisco » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:51 am

The way the payed against Cleveland is the best looking offensive basketball I’ve see the Lakers play since the Phil Shaq-Kobe-Horry-Shaw-Fox times.

I know it’s not a quality opponent but man, they’re playing more and more like a machine of five.

PG: James[34], Bradley, Rondo, Cook
SG: Caruso[28], Pope, Daniels, THT
SF: Kuzma[28], Green, THT, Caroline
PF: Davis[34], Kuzma, Dudley, Cacok
C: McGee[24], Howard, Kostas, (DMC)

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Cousins | C Howard

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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#11 » by stan francisco » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:09 am

thebigbird wrote:They also shot 15-32 from 3 against OKC, 14-26 without rondo's 1-6. Yeah, things look good when the 3s are falling. When they weren't against Denver they got blown out by 24 without lebron. Vogel doesn't have a dilemma.


Yeah, if LBJ ball is the baseline, I guess it’s perhaps not a true dilemma. :lol:

When shots fall, this team is tough to beat.

PG: James[34], Bradley, Rondo, Cook
SG: Caruso[28], Pope, Daniels, THT
SF: Kuzma[28], Green, THT, Caroline
PF: Davis[34], Kuzma, Dudley, Cacok
C: McGee[24], Howard, Kostas, (DMC)

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Cousins | C Howard

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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#12 » by stan francisco » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:10 am

Landsberger wrote:In the OKC game we played inspired defense and still scored 60 points in the paint(right in line with our previous games with the big 2) We pushed the pace all game long and got everyone involved. We didn't try and win the game from the 3 point line.... which is great. Much of that was Vogel/Rondo IMHO.


Good points.

PG: James[34], Bradley, Rondo, Cook
SG: Caruso[28], Pope, Daniels, THT
SF: Kuzma[28], Green, THT, Caroline
PF: Davis[34], Kuzma, Dudley, Cacok
C: McGee[24], Howard, Kostas, (DMC)

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Cousins | C Howard

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Re: Vogel’s dilemma and great opportunity 

Post#13 » by stan francisco » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:15 am

LAKESHOW wrote:Nice thread topic. I remember an interview with Jax where he said, when talking with Shaq before starting the job, he said he was hoping that while explaining to Shaq that he had to change his game play, weight, etc...that he hoped that Shaq would listen, obey and trust. Trust in what? That his 6 rings would convince shaq to employ Jaxs gameplan. Shaq did, rest is history.
Vogel doesnt of course, have that championship experience to point to.
Maybe this is where staffers can help bring 2 sides to find middleground


Trust in the fact that each dynasty had a star player and a coach who both trusted and pushed each other.

I thought I saw more synergy and cohesion than before in the Cleveland game. It’s gonna be fun to see this team in peak form!

PG: James[34], Bradley, Rondo, Cook
SG: Caruso[28], Pope, Daniels, THT
SF: Kuzma[28], Green, THT, Caroline
PF: Davis[34], Kuzma, Dudley, Cacok
C: McGee[24], Howard, Kostas, (DMC)

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Cousins | C Howard

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