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Kareem in 1982

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Cafu
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Kareem in 1982 

Post#1 » by Cafu » Thu May 14, 2020 12:38 pm

Hello guys, hope you guys stay safe in this time and we will have NBA back soon.

So I was arguing with my friend about Kareem and Magic’s roles in those championships years.
In 1980, although Magic won the FMVP but it was clear who was the best.
But in 1982 Kareem was starting to decline. It showed on the stats, especially the playoff winshare. He was 3rd that year behind even Norm.
I am not old enough to watch NBA those years but I read every books about the Lakers that I could find and in my memory and impression, Kareem was still the man in 1982, 1983.
So the question is do the stats telling the truth that Magic but not Kareem was the man that year?
And if not, what year was the year that Magic became the best player on the Lakers?
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#2 » by Demagoog » Thu May 14, 2020 10:04 pm

Magic didn't become the man until the 1986/87 season, which may sound weird, but it's the truth. He might have been the best talent on the Lakers for a while, but he became truly the best player after the 1986 debacle against Houston. That's when the cracks in Kareem really started to show. He would score on Hakeem and Sampson like he always did, but the Lakers got dominated on the boards and just weren't able to stop Hakeem. Magic averaged 22 and 16(!) that series but the Lakers lost in 5.

In the summer of '86, Riley and Magic had lunch together, where Riley gave him the keys to the team and asked him to score more. That's when Magic, who prepared like a mad man, took over and the best ever Lakers team was found.
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#3 » by Cafu » Fri May 15, 2020 12:19 am

Demagoog wrote:Magic didn't become the man until the 1986/87 season, which may sound weird, but it's the truth. He might have been the best talent on the Lakers for a while, but he became truly the best player after the 1986 debacle against Houston. That's when the cracks in Kareem really started to show. He would score on Hakeem and Sampson like he always did, but the Lakers got dominated on the boards and just weren't able to stop Hakeem. Magic averaged 22 and 16(!) that series but the Lakers lost in 5.

In the summer of '86, Riley and Magic had lunch together, where Riley gave him the keys to the team and asked him to score more. That's when Magic, who prepared like a mad man, took over and the best ever Lakers team was found.


Thanks.
I had the Lakers Champion DVD a while back and I remembered that AFTER losing to Celtics the 1st time, Magic was getting a lots of blames. Not until he came back strong and we finally beat the Celtics Magic finally get recognized as equally as Bird.
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#4 » by Landsberger » Fri May 15, 2020 4:51 am

Kareem had fantastic seasons for the Lakers and was the glue on those teams. Game plans were pretty simple for the Lakers back then. Kareem would often get 12 to 14 points in his first run in the first quarter. Then it was showtime. He'd get much fewer attempts in the middle quarters. Then at about the 8 minute mark of the 4th he was the focus of the offense to close games.

Magic became a much better closing player a little later in the 80's. He had his issues in the playoffs early in his career other than game 6 in 80. The torch was passed in 87 for sure.

The 80 finals MVP was a travesty for Kareem IMHO. Kareem dominated that series and CBS pushed the vote Magic's way because they needed someone on TV (Kareem was in LA). Magic had a great game but Kareem was the MVP of that series... hands down. That series also had what I think is one of the most overlooked games by an injured player. Kareem returned from a bad ankle sprain in game 5 to score 14 points in the 4th quarter, grab 8 boards and block a potential tying shot with a few second remaining. Willis Reed gets a lot of recognition for playing hurt but Kareem turned a game we were losing around.

The are 2 things that are remarkable to me about his career are his 85-86 season and how he played the twin towers. At that age, and with the games he had under his belt he put together a dominant season. The second, and the one that gives you some perspective into his competitiveness, was how he played against the "twin towers" of Houston late in his career. Hakeem and Sampson were both touted to be better big men that the "old" Kareem. Well... in that 85/86 season he averaged 38 points a game against them in 6 games (with an 18 point game in there) while shooting 63%. In 2 of those games he outscore both Sampson and Hakeem combined. He pretty much did the same thing the previous year as well.
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#5 » by Landsberger » Fri May 15, 2020 4:56 am

Cafu wrote:
Demagoog wrote:Magic didn't become the man until the 1986/87 season, which may sound weird, but it's the truth. He might have been the best talent on the Lakers for a while, but he became truly the best player after the 1986 debacle against Houston. That's when the cracks in Kareem really started to show. He would score on Hakeem and Sampson like he always did, but the Lakers got dominated on the boards and just weren't able to stop Hakeem. Magic averaged 22 and 16(!) that series but the Lakers lost in 5.

In the summer of '86, Riley and Magic had lunch together, where Riley gave him the keys to the team and asked him to score more. That's when Magic, who prepared like a mad man, took over and the best ever Lakers team was found.


Thanks.
I had the Lakers Champion DVD a while back and I remembered that AFTER losing to Celtics the 1st time, Magic was getting a lots of blames. Not until he came back strong and we finally beat the Celtics Magic finally get recognized as equally as Bird.


84... :banghead: I've never gotten over game 2 of that series. We beat Boston on their court in Game 1 and had a decent lead in game 2 until Magic and Worthy lost their minds. Boston was packing the paint and giving Kareem fits while forcing Magic and Worthy to carry the load. Magic had 3 TO's in the last 6 possessions of regulation. Worthy threw an inbounds pass away with 12 seconds left that resulted in a tying basket. Then Magic, for some reason, just dribbled out the clock and we lost in OT. Had we won that game we most likely get that damn green monkey off our back 2 seasons earlier....

Magic and Worth redeemed themselves later but that one was hard to watch.
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#6 » by Kilroy » Sat May 16, 2020 12:28 am

Magic completely changed the outlook of the Lakers as a rookie... Kareem's Lakers were good but they looked about like Kareems Bucks. He'd been with the Lakers since 75 and they were at best, a WCF contender. They didn't look like a true contender until they drafted Magic in '79. Kareem already had 9 seasons and a full College career under his belt by then. (on Converse all-stars)
As a rookie, Magic basically averages a triple double in the post season (with 3 steels), and we win the Chip....

Check out Magic's post season numbers through his career:
http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/pAhdu

I get that since his stint as POBO, it's cool to minimize his contributions to the Lakers, but by the time he came Kareem was already on the backend of his prime... Magic extended his career so it seemed like he had this incredibly long prime, but really, it was Magic's team within a couple years of him being drafted. It was fully magic's show by 82... Kareem still anchored the offense and Defense, but Magic was the heart and soul of the team. And Kareem I don't think really minded that... Sure, his ego got rustled a bit here and there... But Kap was never really a limelight kind of guy... He wasn't that approachable to fans and didn't really like doing interviews, etc. He was fine letting Magic do all that as long as Magic gave him the respect he deserved, which to his credit, Magic mostly did... Even if it was clear they weren't really that close.

And we need to stop harping on the couple bad games Magic had in the post season... Kap had plenty of them too... Remember all the Migrane games?
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#7 » by Landsberger » Sat May 16, 2020 3:06 pm

Kilroy wrote:Magic completely changed the outlook of the Lakers as a rookie... Kareem's Lakers were good but they looked about like Kareems Bucks. He'd been with the Lakers since 75 and they were at best, a WCF contender. They didn't look like a true contender until they drafted Magic in '79. Kareem already had 9 seasons and a full College career under his belt by then. (on Converse all-stars)
As a rookie, Magic basically averages a triple double in the post season (with 3 steels), and we win the Chip....

Check out Magic's post season numbers through his career:
http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/pAhdu

I get that since his stint as POBO, it's cool to minimize his contributions to the Lakers, but by the time he came Kareem was already on the backend of his prime... Magic extended his career so it seemed like he had this incredibly long prime, but really, it was Magic's team within a couple years of him being drafted. It was fully magic's show by 82... Kareem still anchored the offense and Defense, but Magic was the heart and soul of the team. And Kareem I don't think really minded that... Sure, his ego got rustled a bit here and there... But Kap was never really a limelight kind of guy... He wasn't that approachable to fans and didn't really like doing interviews, etc. He was fine letting Magic do all that as long as Magic gave him the respect he deserved, which to his credit, Magic mostly did... Even if it was clear they weren't really that close.

And we need to stop harping on the couple bad games Magic had in the post season... Kap had plenty of them too... Remember all the Migrane games?



Magic was the NBA's guy.... Kareem was a guy who ruffled the media's feathers in the early 70's with the Black Panther stuff and never really recovered. The NBA was dying when Magic and Bird came in. Drugs, stupid rules (3 for 2 FT's for example) and tape delayed NBA Finals games showed where the game was. Magic resurrected the game along with Bird and then Jordan. Kareem was never they guy who fed off the press. Magic was.

The migraine games and the "AC's broke" games in Boston.... yeah. He also had some stretches in the regular season where he mailed it in. The scene in Airplane wasn't all satire.

The idea that Kareem's extended prime was a result of Magic alone is a stretch. Kareem won a finals MVP at age 37 and averaged over 21 with 7 boards at age 39 in 87's win over Boston. That Boston Series was a slow down physical match up. They were not letting us run and trying to physically hurt anyone who went down the lane. Magic's sweeping hook closed those MF'ers out that year. That may have been one of the most intense finals I've ever seen. Near fights in almost every game.

Who's team it was is kind of immaterial. Kareem was the anchor when we closed close games and Magic was the catalyst when we blew teams out. Kareem had his share of bad games/series (83 for example) but largely he closed most of our playoff wins into the 86-87 season. While not in his prime he was still remarkably consistent.

That 82 season was interesting. The finals that year no one on the Lakers averaged over 20. I think that's only happened one other time (may be wrong but I seem to remember hearing that). That finals was the most balanced we had in that run from a statistical standpoint.

Kareems presence enhanced Magic's game and vice versa. Not a coincidence we didn't win in that run once Kareem declined significantly and not one that Kareem didn't win more without Magic earlier.

As for my focus on game 2 in 84.... everyone has a traumatic sports event where it sticks with you a long time. That game was it for me. That was the team that kept beating us and we had a 0-2 advantage heading home and let it slip away. The smug interviews by the C's after it and Most's call still ring in my head today. Another memory in that series was our game 4 home loss in OT. Kareem fouled out on a silly block attempt and Bird went supernatural in OT while taunting the Lakers bench.

If you're looking for stats in the 80 playoffs.... 31.9 points, 12.1 rebounds, 3.1 assists and 3.9 blocks per game on 57.2 percent field goal shooting. That includes a game where he hobbled for quarter on a sprained ankle. In the Finals he raised those numbers to 33.4, 13.2, 3.2 and 4.6 blocks.
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#8 » by Landsberger » Wed May 27, 2020 2:27 am

I was doing a little YouTube searching today and found a great game to show how Kareem and Magic dominated. The Lakers had been blown out in game one giving up the most points in a finals game ever (148). Kareem was limited to just 11 shots. The team was in a must win situation and a 37 year old Kareem had been hearing for 3 days that he was over the hill.... This game the Lakers played through Kareem for the most part but notice how Magic managed the game when Kareem was on the bench. At this point Magic had developed a really nice set shot that he didn't have earlier in his career which allowed Magic to be on the strong side with Kareem. We even see an ugly jumper by Kupchak in this one.

Spoiler... Lakers win, Kareem has a great bounce back game and Magic plays an amazing strategic game by letting the C's over play the physical stuff they were trying to do to Kareem.

Interesting factoid. Kareem shot only 4 FT's in 3 games in Boston (none in the first 2 games) while he shot 22 in LA's 3 games.... gotta love the NBA refereeing... somethings never change. :lol:




Now 2 short years later the pivotal game was game 4 in Boston. Kareem has a good series but this game was not his best. Magic carried this series with Worthy and Kareem. They got down 15 in this one and Magic/Worthy really changed this one. Off of a Kareem missed FT late we get and offensive rebound out of bounds and the rest is history....



I'd still trade the other championships in this run for a win in 84... I really hated the Celtics...
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#9 » by Kilroy » Wed May 27, 2020 5:11 am

Man... I still want to punch McHale and DJ in the nuts....
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#10 » by NPZ » Wed May 27, 2020 11:16 pm

Cafu wrote:Hello guys, hope you guys stay safe in this time and we will have NBA back soon.

So I was arguing with my friend about Kareem and Magic’s roles in those championships years.
In 1980, although Magic won the FMVP but it was clear who was the best.
But in 1982 Kareem was starting to decline. It showed on the stats, especially the playoff winshare. He was 3rd that year behind even Norm.
I am not old enough to watch NBA those years but I read every books about the Lakers that I could find and in my memory and impression, Kareem was still the man in 1982, 1983.
So the question is do the stats telling the truth that Magic but not Kareem was the man that year?
And if not, what year was the year that Magic became the best player on the Lakers?


I've just done about 40 recaps of old games from 1981-84 on my youtube Laker channel, most of them were Chick broadcasts (no Prime Ticket til 85/6, so mostly the road games were Chick/Keith). Due to this Covid project, I've been forced to go thru a ton of old footage that I last watched about a dozen years ago, so it's fresh in my mind again. Kareem was slipping a little here and there by his OWN standards (key phrase), but he was still a killer night in and night out. He still killed opponents til 87ish before he really began to take a hit, but even then he still had a lot of good nights as an oldie. Nixon, Wilkes, and McAdoo were also KEY forgotten Lakers. They as a collective, plus Coop, had a higher bball IQ than the later 80s Showtime units. They got along in the team offense MUCH easier than the later Showtime guys like Scott and Worthy did as soon as Magic sat.

Go head and watch some of those 82 games. In specific, watch the 2/26/82 vs PHI game (Chick) where Kap had 41/19.

https://www.youtube.com/user/nonplayerzealot4/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#11 » by Landsberger » Thu May 28, 2020 3:20 am

Kilroy wrote:Man... I still want to punch McHale and DJ in the nuts....


Yeah... my fist would be sore by the time I got to those 2 after ML Carr, Maxwell and Ainge. Bird was a di*k but he was so good I could stomach it.
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#12 » by Cafu » Thu May 28, 2020 3:01 pm

NPZ wrote:
Cafu wrote:Hello guys, hope you guys stay safe in this time and we will have NBA back soon.

So I was arguing with my friend about Kareem and Magic’s roles in those championships years.
In 1980, although Magic won the FMVP but it was clear who was the best.
But in 1982 Kareem was starting to decline. It showed on the stats, especially the playoff winshare. He was 3rd that year behind even Norm.
I am not old enough to watch NBA those years but I read every books about the Lakers that I could find and in my memory and impression, Kareem was still the man in 1982, 1983.
So the question is do the stats telling the truth that Magic but not Kareem was the man that year?
And if not, what year was the year that Magic became the best player on the Lakers?


I've just done about 40 recaps of old games from 1981-84 on my youtube Laker channel, most of them were Chick broadcasts (no Prime Ticket til 85/6, so mostly the road games were Chick/Keith). Due to this Covid project, I've been forced to go thru a ton of old footage that I last watched about a dozen years ago, so it's fresh in my mind again. Kareem was slipping a little here and there by his OWN standards (key phrase), but he was still a killer night in and night out. He still killed opponents til 87ish before he really began to take a hit, but even then he still had a lot of good nights as an oldie. Nixon, Wilkes, and McAdoo were also KEY forgotten Lakers. They as a collective, plus Coop, had a higher bball IQ than the later 80s Showtime units. They got along in the team offense MUCH easier than the later Showtime guys like Scott and Worthy did as soon as Magic sat.

Go head and watch some of those 82 games. In specific, watch the 2/26/82 vs PHI game (Chick) where Kap had 41/19.

https://www.youtube.com/user/nonplayerzealot4/videos?view_as=subscriber


Thanks.
Just watched the highlights of Lakers vs Spurs in 82, the protested game lol what a rare sight, all the waiting and Nixon did not hit the rim lol
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Re: Kareem in 1982 

Post#13 » by Landsberger » Fri May 29, 2020 6:50 pm

NPZ wrote:
Cafu wrote:Hello guys, hope you guys stay safe in this time and we will have NBA back soon.

So I was arguing with my friend about Kareem and Magic’s roles in those championships years.
In 1980, although Magic won the FMVP but it was clear who was the best.
But in 1982 Kareem was starting to decline. It showed on the stats, especially the playoff winshare. He was 3rd that year behind even Norm.
I am not old enough to watch NBA those years but I read every books about the Lakers that I could find and in my memory and impression, Kareem was still the man in 1982, 1983.
So the question is do the stats telling the truth that Magic but not Kareem was the man that year?
And if not, what year was the year that Magic became the best player on the Lakers?


I've just done about 40 recaps of old games from 1981-84 on my youtube Laker channel, most of them were Chick broadcasts (no Prime Ticket til 85/6, so mostly the road games were Chick/Keith). Due to this Covid project, I've been forced to go thru a ton of old footage that I last watched about a dozen years ago, so it's fresh in my mind again. Kareem was slipping a little here and there by his OWN standards (key phrase), but he was still a killer night in and night out. He still killed opponents til 87ish before he really began to take a hit, but even then he still had a lot of good nights as an oldie. Nixon, Wilkes, and McAdoo were also KEY forgotten Lakers. They as a collective, plus Coop, had a higher bball IQ than the later 80s Showtime units. They got along in the team offense MUCH easier than the later Showtime guys like Scott and Worthy did as soon as Magic sat.

Go head and watch some of those 82 games. In specific, watch the 2/26/82 vs PHI game (Chick) where Kap had 41/19.

https://www.youtube.com/user/nonplayerzealot4/videos?view_as=subscriber



The post 87 Lakers were a very shallow team. McAdoo was light years better as the primary backup to Kareem as he was able to play showtime much better than Thompson who, at the point we got him, was rather immobile. Seems like we always had issues with depth and the Detroit finals showed that.... especially the sweep. Scott goes down and Magic is hobbled and we got our butts kicked.

To me, the guy that never gets recognition is Wilkes. While Magic had 42 in that finals game Wilkes had 37 and was huge down the stretch in that game. So overlooked. He also was the primary "shooter" on Kareems side fo the floor that opened the game for him. Worthy was much better attacking than Wilkes but the ability to move to the right spot while Kareem had the ball and create the space he needed was a huge asset to the "early" run of dominance.

Scott always went largely unnoticed as well. He typically drew the toughest guard/wing cover and was tough as nails. Offensively he filled in the gaps most nights but he was capable of 20+ a game at the drop of a hat if needed.

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