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So what's the plan with Kuz?

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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#41 » by zimpy27 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:34 pm

I'd shop around Kuzma for a 3rd/4th best player that is much older
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#42 » by LAKESHOW » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:48 pm

1 thing that pisses me off bout Kuz is his handles. Dude gets stripped. He can't dribble a fast break. He can catch and shoot, or catch while cutting to the basket. But his handles has not freakin improved.
I gauge players by their off season improvements. Magic got a shot. Kobe was constantly in the gym. Heck, even KCP was all off season shooting somethin hundred shots a day, and now we see the payoff. KUZ? He better get his ass in the gym.

With that said, although I got gripes, he might be the cheapest experienced option.
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#43 » by kblo247 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:44 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:So now we're overrating Kuzma's defense too? Some of you guys are never going to learn.

Per @ESPNStatsInfo
For the series, Kuz: When he contested as primary defender, Heat shot 24%, 2-7 by Jimmy Butler.

You can't overrate a fact. He either forced bad shots or fouled the hell out you with the I got 6 motto :lol:

He literally was 10ppg 43%fg, 31% three, 78% free throw, and 3 rebs in 23 mins with above average defense. ESSENTIALLY RICK FOX ROLE AND NUMBERS FOR THE PLAYOFFS ... And got paid less than Caruso, Kieff, Dwight, and Rondo to boot :lol:
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#44 » by Sedale Threatt » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:20 am

kblo247 wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:So now we're overrating Kuzma's defense too? Some of you guys are never going to learn.

Per @ESPNStatsInfo
For the series, Kuz: When he contested as primary defender, Heat shot 24%, 2-7 by Jimmy Butler.

You can't overrate a fact. He either forced bad shots or fouled the hell out you with the I got 6 motto :lol:

He literally was 10ppg 43%fg, 31% three, 78% free throw, and 3 rebs in 23 mins with above average defense. ESSENTIALLY RICK FOX ROLE AND NUMBERS FOR THE PLAYOFFS ... And got paid less than Caruso, Kieff, Dwight, and Rondo to boot :lol:


Seven shots. Huge sample size.
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#45 » by kblo247 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:41 am

Sedale Threatt wrote:
kblo247 wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:So now we're overrating Kuzma's defense too? Some of you guys are never going to learn.

Per @ESPNStatsInfo
For the series, Kuz: When he contested as primary defender, Heat shot 24%, 2-7 by Jimmy Butler.

You can't overrate a fact. He either forced bad shots or fouled the hell out you with the I got 6 motto :lol:

He literally was 10ppg 43%fg, 31% three, 78% free throw, and 3 rebs in 23 mins with above average defense. ESSENTIALLY RICK FOX ROLE AND NUMBERS FOR THE PLAYOFFS ... And got paid less than Caruso, Kieff, Dwight, and Rondo to boot :lol:


Seven shots. Huge sample size.

Butler took 7 shots versus him all series, AND BTW 2/7 IS ROUGHLY 28%. For the series, Kuzma as a primary defender vs Miami forced them to shoot 24% over 6 games. He contested well. He contested Butler well. He fouled more than you like but the fact remains he was elite defensively vs the heat.

He was elite defensively versus the Blazers as well as he and Caruso didn't just top the Lakers, they topped all of hte players in the first round for their defensive metrics including Bron and AD.

So you have no point, no actual tangible point or argument to knock his defense at all other than personal bias because facts say he was damn good that end
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#46 » by Sedale Threatt » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:55 am

kblo247 wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:
kblo247 wrote:Per @ESPNStatsInfo
For the series, Kuz: When he contested as primary defender, Heat shot 24%, 2-7 by Jimmy Butler.

You can't overrate a fact. He either forced bad shots or fouled the hell out you with the I got 6 motto :lol:

He literally was 10ppg 43%fg, 31% three, 78% free throw, and 3 rebs in 23 mins with above average defense. ESSENTIALLY RICK FOX ROLE AND NUMBERS FOR THE PLAYOFFS ... And got paid less than Caruso, Kieff, Dwight, and Rondo to boot :lol:


Seven shots. Huge sample size.

Butler took 7 shots versus him all series. For the series, Kuzma as a primary defender vs Miami forced them to shoot 24% over 6 games. He contested well. He contested Butler well. He fouled more than you like but the fact remains he was elite defensively vs the heat.

He was elite defensively versus the Blazers as well as he and Caruso didn't just top the Lakers, they topped all of hte players in the first round for their defensive metrics including Bron and AD.

So you have no point, no actual tangible point or argument to knock his defense at all other than personal bias because facts say he was damn good that end


On the contrary, NBA.com tracking has his men shooting 18 for 40 in the series, 45 percent. Which is almost exactly what those players were expected to shoot on those shots. Solid job. But a far sight from "damn good" or "elite."

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&DateFrom=09%2F30%2F2020&DateTo=10%2F11%2F2020&sort=D_FG_PCT&dir=1&PerMode=Totals

On top of that, we also have Basketball Reference's BPM stats. Of our top 10 players in minutes played during the regular season, he was dead last defensively and overall. And in case you think that's a fluke, of our top 10 players in minutes played during the playoffs, he was dead last defensively and overall AGAIN. Additional fun fact: He was the only Laker to register a negative defensive BPM in the playoffs. (And still more, unrelated: LeBron, Davis and Rondo were the only Lakers to register a positive overall BPM throughout the playoffs. I don't know what games you were watching, but that jives pretty close to what I saw.)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2020.html

I don't think he's horrible. Sometimes you just need dudes to eat minutes, especially given our salary structure and options, and at this point that's what he does. He's a 20-25 minute body. The fact that he's cheap is a bonus. Another bonus still is that he didn't whine about shots and at least tried to play hard.

But how some of you guys -- especially you, with your weirdo fixations -- get wrapped up in these subpar, unproven players is kind of beyond me. Three years in, he's a total mediocrity, and barring some kind of unusual improvement that's all he's gonna be.
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#47 » by Kilroy » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:57 am

kblo247 wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:
kblo247 wrote:Per @ESPNStatsInfo
For the series, Kuz: When he contested as primary defender, Heat shot 24%, 2-7 by Jimmy Butler.

You can't overrate a fact. He either forced bad shots or fouled the hell out you with the I got 6 motto :lol:

He literally was 10ppg 43%fg, 31% three, 78% free throw, and 3 rebs in 23 mins with above average defense. ESSENTIALLY RICK FOX ROLE AND NUMBERS FOR THE PLAYOFFS ... And got paid less than Caruso, Kieff, Dwight, and Rondo to boot :lol:


Seven shots. Huge sample size.

Butler took 7 shots versus him all series, AND BTW 2/7 IS ROUGHLY 28%. For the series, Kuzma as a primary defender vs Miami forced them to shoot 24% over 6 games. He contested well. He contested Butler well. He fouled more than you like but the fact remains he was elite defensively vs the heat.

He was elite defensively versus the Blazers as well as he and Caruso didn't just top the Lakers, they topped all of hte players in the first round for their defensive metrics including Bron and AD.

So you have no point, no actual tangible point or argument to knock his defense at all other than personal bias because facts say he was damn good that end

Yeah but advanced stats really has no clue when it comes to defense and the eye test is proof... Empirical Evidence has been the basis of many many scientific theories over the years. Numbers tell part of the story but if the numbers add up and the eye test still tells you something is way off, you know you're not really understanding what the numbers are telling you...
For Caruso, the numbers and the eye test confirm one another... For Kuz, not so much...
He had some stellar defensive plays throughout the playoffs, but he was also a complete liability off the ball... He routinely was out of position, got lost... Hell he was constantly running into his team mates on switches and taking them out of the play... Many points were scored on his lapses alone... There aren't really metrics for errors on Defense yet...

It's not lack of desire or effort with Kuz, it's lack of bballiq... And he's had plenty of teachers at this point.

Kuz has a lot of what we need going forward for this team... Young legs, athleticism and shooting ability... But he's still just an awkward fit...

I don't know if we'll keep him or not... The team is really on a high right now and seems to be all about keeping these guys together, but reality will set in sooner or later, and I think you have to recognize Kuz is one of the few assets we have. I think they'll shop him hard...
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#48 » by kblo247 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:09 am

Kilroy wrote:
kblo247 wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:
Seven shots. Huge sample size.

Butler took 7 shots versus him all series, AND BTW 2/7 IS ROUGHLY 28%. For the series, Kuzma as a primary defender vs Miami forced them to shoot 24% over 6 games. He contested well. He contested Butler well. He fouled more than you like but the fact remains he was elite defensively vs the heat.

He was elite defensively versus the Blazers as well as he and Caruso didn't just top the Lakers, they topped all of hte players in the first round for their defensive metrics including Bron and AD.

So you have no point, no actual tangible point or argument to knock his defense at all other than personal bias because facts say he was damn good that end

Yeah but advanced stats really has no clue when it comes to defense and the eye test is proof... Empirical Evidence has been the basis of many many scientific theories over the years. Numbers tell part of the story but if the numbers add up and the eye test still tells you something is way off, you know you're not really understanding what the numbers are telling you...
For Caruso, the numbers and the eye test confirm one another... For Kuz, not so much...
He had some stellar defensive plays throughout the playoffs, but he was also a complete liability off the ball... He routinely was out of position, got lost... Hell he was constantly running into his team mates on switches and taking them out of the play... Many points were scored on his lapses alone... There aren't really metrics for errors on Defense yet...

It's not lack of desire or effort with Kuz, it's lack of bballiq... And he's had plenty of teachers at this point.

Kuz has a lot of what we need going forward for this team... Young legs, athleticism and shooting ability... But he's still just an awkward fit...

I don't know if we'll keep him or not... The team is really on a high right now and seems to be all about keeping these guys together, but reality will set in sooner or later, and I think you have to recognize Kuz is one of the few assets we have. I think they'll shop him hard...

I get he is an asset. The hardest part of him being an asset is his salary is so low. I mean every vet that was in the rotation made more than him, as well as Caruso. You ain't getting anyone who produces like him at his price. I agree he could be a sweetner if you are flipping Green though, as really Javale/Bradley control their own futures.

I personally am most interested to see what Kuz will be if he's developed by Handy to be a specific wing defender. I mean year one he and everyone else played every role and just was told it doesn't matter. Year 2 Luke tried to make him a small ball 5 to start the year and then a stretch 4. Then he had no camp last year after getting hurt with team usa and was told figure out how to be a bench 4 with 8 less minutes and shots to we signed Kieff. When we signed Kieff it was said he would be swing and used to defend wings and he did that defined role from that point on for like 2 weeks and the season ended, then he came back and did it in the bubble. I mean one role can do wonders for a person. I think coach will give him that one role and it will work as I have seen KCP develop in his role under Vogel.

I rather have Kuz at his price than Harkless at whatever he is looking for, when he's never out produced Kuzma for instance. Now I really would like to see what Kuz can do in the role of Green if you can flip Green. And I do think Green will be moved with the death threats and him saying being a Laker was hard mentally this year for him.
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#49 » by AmusingFiddle » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:16 pm

Seen enough. He is decent but we will have to use him as trade bait to get a decent PG/shooter/playmaker.

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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#50 » by stan francisco » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:00 pm

His (and everyone else’s) defense is constantly under rated or completely ignored in discussions around here. When his shots fall, the defense-blind posters here will jump on his bandwagon again.

Frank Vogel who designed the suffocating defense that we just used to win us championship rings apparently thinks Kuzma’s defense is good enough to merit assigning him to single cover Butler (their star) in game six of the NBA finals.

It’s about impact, not selective stats.

Eye test says, Kuzma was very disciplined on defense. He stuck to the game plan, worked his ass off on that end and he deserves credit for it. Stats are a part of the truth and a good way to shed light on an incomplete part of a bigger picture. But when I see with my own eyes Kuzma’s defense slowing down Jimmy Butler himself or bothering him into a clanked shot without fouling, I don’t need stats. That’s a possession won; therefore, as good as a bucket. Jimmy had a lot of missed buckets because of Kuz. So did others that we eliminated.

I’m frankly super impressed with his growth and efficiency on defense; didn’t think he’d reach this level that quickly. Didn’t know he had that type of focus in him.

Next, the offensive intricacies need to be dialed in. He both shoots and finishes better when he is involved and gets touches setting up the offense. He’s at his best on the run and when cutting. His shooting off the dribble is nowhere near as good as on catch and shoots. So, I think they should draw up some more plays for Kuz next season, so he can catch and shoot a bit more more. This would increase his offensive efficiency to where nobody here would want him gone again.

Let’s face it, Vogel wouldn’t give Kuz the minutes he gave him in the finals if his defense didn’t cut it, according to Vogel’s eye test. He just wouldn’t. And his coaching staff would talk him out of it if Vogel misjudged it.

2020-2021
PG: Caruso, Rondo, Bradley
SG: James, Green or KCP, THT
SF: Kuzma, FA, Caroline
PF: Davis, Morris, Cacok
C: Howard, Kostas, FA

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Kostas | C Howard

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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#51 » by LAKESHOW » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:55 am

He just needs to stop falling for every pump fake in the book
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#52 » by danfantastk32 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:15 am

I guess one of the issues I'm having reading through the thread, is that the 'pro' people keep pointing to how cheap he is.

Got it. He was a great pick as a draft piece. But now we're coming up to contract #2. So who wants to pay him?? Is he worth it once he's getting paid? I am not interested in what he brings to the table at $1.5 mil a year. I'm interested in what he brings to the table once he demands $9-12 mil a year.

Liked Kuz alot. I just haven't seen any appreciable growth in a while. I think any thoughts of him being our "third star" are distant memories at this point. I find it an interesting question though....because to waive him nets us almost no cap relief. So we might be stuck. Perhaps we do pay him $12 a year.
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#53 » by danfantastk32 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:31 am

zimpy27 wrote:I'd shop around Kuzma for a 3rd/4th best player that is much older


I think this is our best bet. Let's basically ride this Lebron train till it derails. It will derail hard....but even if we don't get one more title out of it, I'd consider the whole thing worth it. At the end of the day, I don't think we had anything but a fringe playoff team with Randle, Russel, Ingram, Ball and the others. We got #17, so this is house $$ moving forward.

I don't see us being able to build around Davis appreciably in 2-3 years once Lebron leaves, so perhaps we just blow the whole thing up anyhow. So in the meantime, make any deal with the devil you can. Get an older guy for Kuz, as zimpy suggested. We'll be tearing it all up, so it won't matter.

Now let me say this: I would LOVE to build around Davis, and keep him. I just don't see it. And if we can, I don't think this plan really affects it anyhow. Just go for broke. Chug energy drinks like their out of style...and worry about the heart attacks when your in your 40's.
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#54 » by ScHoolBoy B » Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:45 am

Davis will stay if we put him around Giannis or somebody of that caliber once LeBron retires. I don't see LeBron declining at least until age 40. Gotta get Kostas to be a decent NBA player. That will certainly help our case to lure Giannis.
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#55 » by Beethoven » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:48 am

Yeah .. If all goes well, at this trajectory LeBron will be playing elite ball for another 3-4 years.
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#56 » by stan francisco » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:43 am

ScHoolBoy B wrote:Davis will stay if we put him around Giannis or somebody of that caliber once LeBron retires. I don't see LeBron declining at least until age 40. Gotta get Kostas to be a decent NBA player. That will certainly help our case to lure Giannis.


Now go look up some Kostas highlights from the G league last season. It’ll get you pumped, I promise.

He’s gonna be an NBA player, alright. THT, too.

2020-2021
PG: Caruso, Rondo, Bradley
SG: James, Green or KCP, THT
SF: Kuzma, FA, Caroline
PF: Davis, Morris, Cacok
C: Howard, Kostas, FA

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Kostas | C Howard

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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#57 » by king_james_vers » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:15 pm

kblo247 wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:So now we're overrating Kuzma's defense too? Some of you guys are never going to learn.

Per @ESPNStatsInfo
For the series, Kuz: When he contested as primary defender, Heat shot 24%, 2-7 by Jimmy Butler.

You can't overrate a fact. He either forced bad shots or fouled the hell out you with the I got 6 motto :lol:

He literally was 10ppg 43%fg, 31% three, 78% free throw, and 3 rebs in 23 mins with above average defense. ESSENTIALLY RICK FOX ROLE AND NUMBERS FOR THE PLAYOFFS ... And got paid less than Caruso, Kieff, Dwight, and Rondo to boot :lol:

Kuzma is an okay player, he's just not a great fit for this team. You need to surround LeBron/Davis with shooters, and Kuzma is simply not an efficient enough shooter.

He shot .316 from 3 this year (.313 in the playoffs). League average was .358.
He had a .531 TS% (.535 in the playoffs). League average was .563.

He's just not an efficient enough shooter for the role that he is in. He would be better served another team where he isn't relegated to a third/fourth option spot shooter role. That's simply not his strength. A trade would mutually benefit LA - where they can get a more traditional 3-and-D player - and Kuzma, where he can take on a higher-volume role.
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#58 » by Kilroy » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:17 am

I would love to see us find a way to extend and trade Kuz, so we'd have more flexibility with our other assets.
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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#59 » by stan francisco » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:30 pm

Kilroy wrote:I would love to see us find a way to extend and trade Kuz, so we'd have more flexibility with our other assets.


I’d guess that’s exactly what Rob would like to do. I just hope he doesn’t get duped by Pop when he shops him.

2020-2021
PG: Caruso, Rondo, Bradley
SG: James, Green or KCP, THT
SF: Kuzma, FA, Caroline
PF: Davis, Morris, Cacok
C: Howard, Kostas, FA

Go huge: PG James | SG Kuz | SF Davis | PF Kostas | C Howard

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Re: So what's the plan with Kuz? 

Post#60 » by kblo247 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:04 am

Trivia: Kuz shot 54% from corner 3s during the season but shot only 25% from elsewhere beyond the arc.

Coaching staff finally caught on and had him shoot half his 3pt attempts from the corner during the playoffs. He was 38.5% from the corner in the post season. 47.5% or 48/101 is his combined total.

That's a decent sample size. A coach like Pop would look at that on focus on it (Bowen) and same with Phil (Fox)
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