RealGM

Injury was a large part of the collapse this season but there were some important things to notice about the coaching and roster fit. These are some things I noticed:

Firstly, Vogel is not going to play liabilities on defense. Harrell is a strong example of this, Lakers brought in Drummond who is a better defending and poorer offensive archetype of Harrell. Drummond took all of Harrell minutes even though Harrell's offense was needed.

Secondly, the player doesn't have to be the best defender but he has to not be a liability, from there the value seemed to be ranked by offensive spacing. THT vs Caruso+KCP+Matthews. These guys all fill a similar role and THT couldn't get into the rotation because even though the others had a poor playoffs from 3, all those guys still provide spacing because of the threat that THT has not shown yet. Threat notoriety from 3 is a big factor in the NBA. Think of last playoffs, Rondo had no threat and was given open 3s which he just started hitting, Green was a huge threat from 3 and provided spacing even though he bombed out. Both were missed this year.

Thirdly, Schroeder and Kuzma are not great 3 shooters but had quite a lot of playoff minutes due to the improvement they bring to offense efficiency through playmaking and movement. Davis obviously has quite a big impact on offense despite being a below-average 3 shooter.

TLDR: Guys the Lakers should be looking to bring in the offseason - must not be a defensive liability, should be either a notorious threat from 3 (36%+ of past several seasons) OR be an efficient iso scorer OR provide offensive movement and playmaking

Group 1: Laker non-liability defenders that provide efficient offense through 2 of iso scoring, 3pt threats (last few seasons ~36%+), and good playmaking/movement
LeBron, Davis, Gasol, Caruso

Group 2: Laker non-liability defenders that provide necessary balance on offense through iso scoring, 3pt threats (last few seasons ~36%+), and playmaking/movement
Matthews, KCP, Schroeder, Kuzma

Group 3: Laker non-liability defenders that provide average or unnecessary offense through 1 of iso scoring, 3pt threats (last few seasons ~36%+), and playmaking/movement
THT, Markieff

Group 4: Laker liability defenders
McLemore, Harrell, McKinnie

Group 1 players will be kept and need to be added to.
Group 2 players should be kept unless they can be traded for Group 1 players, roster balance should still be considered.
Group 3 players should be traded if Group 1 or 2 player can be had or retained if the price is low.
Group 4 players are gone in FA or should be traded in the offseason.

Do you agree with this rationale? What are some players that you think the Lakers should go after in the offseason?

Quick examples of players Lakers could realistically trade for or try to pick up with TaxMLE

Playmaker: Melton, Wright, Walker, White, Lowry, Payne
Wing: DDV, O'Neale, Connaughton, Green, Brooks, Hield, Rozier
Big: BroLo, Goga, Theis, Olynyk, Griffin, Love, Plumlee, Reid

The biggest thing I’m missing from Kuzma is consistency. I can live with what Schröder brings once he fits more into a third option role alongside Lebron and AD but kuzma is there to add offense and he’s shown no consistency in doing that.

Everyone besides those you mentioned in group 1 should be on the trading block. Sign & trade Schröder, try to see what package you can make around THT & add in Kuzma, try to keep Drummond, and have a full season to work with AD & LeBron (depending on his contract obviously). We have to try to find that third guy, preferably a guard/shooting guard to compete for a championship again. We should definitely add more 3 point shooting to open up the paint. Vogel should also take a deep look at his offensive sets because most 3 point shooters seem to die here, only to get resurrected on another team.

Slava wrote:The biggest thing I’m missing from Kuzma is consistency. I can live with what Schröder brings once he fits more into a third option role alongside Lebron and AD but kuzma is there to add offense and he’s shown no consistency in doing that.

If Schroeder could hit the 3 better and had a better attitude then he'd be perfect for the team. I think one is fixable but not sure about the other.
Kuzma has struggled with consistency but his real flaw is BBIQ. I think he makes up for poor BBIQ with a mix of talent and listening to players and coach. I think he's a good teammate and does what he's told almost to a fault. He'll continually get minutes but I'm sure some other player could provide more impact in his role.

zimpy27 wrote:

Slava wrote:The biggest thing I’m missing from Kuzma is consistency. I can live with what Schröder brings once he fits more into a third option role alongside Lebron and AD but kuzma is there to add offense and he’s shown no consistency in doing that.

If Schroeder could hit the 3 better and had a better attitude then he'd be perfect for the team. I think one is fixable but not sure about the other.
Kuzma has struggled with consistency but his real flaw is BBIQ. I think he makes up for poor BBIQ with a mix of talent and listening to players and coach. I think he's a good teammate and does what he's told almost to a fault. He'll continually get minutes but I'm sure some other player could provide more impact in his role.

All you're looking for in that role is a microwave scorer who won't get played off the court on defence. I think THT is already there and he provides a lot more consistency even so early in his career than Kuzma does. Another option is someone like Hield, who will launch shots with confidence in non-LeBron units and if you want to make salaries match in such a deal, you have to include Kuzma.

Slava wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:

Slava wrote:The biggest thing I’m missing from Kuzma is consistency. I can live with what Schröder brings once he fits more into a third option role alongside Lebron and AD but kuzma is there to add offense and he’s shown no consistency in doing that.

If Schroeder could hit the 3 better and had a better attitude then he'd be perfect for the team. I think one is fixable but not sure about the other.
Kuzma has struggled with consistency but his real flaw is BBIQ. I think he makes up for poor BBIQ with a mix of talent and listening to players and coach. I think he's a good teammate and does what he's told almost to a fault. He'll continually get minutes but I'm sure some other player could provide more impact in his role.

All you're looking for in that role is a microwave scorer who won't get played off the court on defence. I think THT is already there and he provides a lot more consistency even so early in his career than Kuzma does. Another option is someone like Hield, who will launch shots with confidence in non-LeBron units and if you want to make salaries match in such a deal, you have to include Kuzma.

THT is still a work in progress. He is a microwave scorer by slashing but his poor 3 shooting really hurts the team. Defenders sag off him to dare him to shoot, it reduces his ability to drive and also clogs lanes for the Lakers offense. The reason he feel in the draft was because of exactly this. He just needs to work on his 3 and his conditioning.

zimpy27 wrote:

Slava wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:
If Schroeder could hit the 3 better and had a better attitude then he'd be perfect for the team. I think one is fixable but not sure about the other.
Kuzma has struggled with consistency but his real flaw is BBIQ. I think he makes up for poor BBIQ with a mix of talent and listening to players and coach. I think he's a good teammate and does what he's told almost to a fault. He'll continually get minutes but I'm sure some other player could provide more impact in his role.

All you're looking for in that role is a microwave scorer who won't get played off the court on defence. I think THT is already there and he provides a lot more consistency even so early in his career than Kuzma does. Another option is someone like Hield, who will launch shots with confidence in non-LeBron units and if you want to make salaries match in such a deal, you have to include Kuzma.

THT is still a work in progress. He is a microwave scorer by slashing but his poor 3 shooting really hurts the team. Defenders sag off him to dare him to shoot, it reduces his ability to drive and also clogs lanes for the Lakers offense. The reason he feel in the draft was because of exactly this. He just needs to work on his 3 and his conditioning.

His 3 is definitely a work in progress but he fell in the draft because he had work ethic and shot selection issues, both of which he seems to have ironed out pretty quickly, so I'd expect him to pull his 3 pt% up to league average. Even 35% would be good.

If you use him, you've got to see him as the guy who generates open 3s for shooters and someone who can play in transition. He can break defences down off the dribble, has very good vision, alongside being a good finisher at the basket. So the foundation for being a good 6th man is there.

Slava wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:

Slava wrote:
All you're looking for in that role is a microwave scorer who won't get played off the court on defence. I think THT is already there and he provides a lot more consistency even so early in his career than Kuzma does. Another option is someone like Hield, who will launch shots with confidence in non-LeBron units and if you want to make salaries match in such a deal, you have to include Kuzma.

THT is still a work in progress. He is a microwave scorer by slashing but his poor 3 shooting really hurts the team. Defenders sag off him to dare him to shoot, it reduces his ability to drive and also clogs lanes for the Lakers offense. The reason he feel in the draft was because of exactly this. He just needs to work on his 3 and his conditioning.

His 3 is definitely a work in progress but he fell in the draft because he had work ethic and shot selection issues, both of which he seems to have ironed out pretty quickly, so I'd expect him to pull his 3 pt% up to league average. Even 35% would be good.

If you use him, you've got to see him as the guy who generates open 3s for shooters and someone who can play in transition. He can break defences down off the dribble, has very good vision, alongside being a good finisher at the basket. So the foundation for being a good 6th man is there.

Yeah if he can play that role then it works.

Caruso, Hield, LeBron, Davis, Love
Wright, THT, Matthews, Markieff, Gasol

That's a realistic team the Lakers could assemble with level of assets they have to trade. I think it's solid but far too expensive. Probably 40m in to luxury tax, I don't know what Lakers owners would afford in luxury tax but I assume that is too much.

zimpy27 wrote:

Slava wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:
THT is still a work in progress. He is a microwave scorer by slashing but his poor 3 shooting really hurts the team. Defenders sag off him to dare him to shoot, it reduces his ability to drive and also clogs lanes for the Lakers offense. The reason he feel in the draft was because of exactly this. He just needs to work on his 3 and his conditioning.

His 3 is definitely a work in progress but he fell in the draft because he had work ethic and shot selection issues, both of which he seems to have ironed out pretty quickly, so I'd expect him to pull his 3 pt% up to league average. Even 35% would be good.

If you use him, you've got to see him as the guy who generates open 3s for shooters and someone who can play in transition. He can break defences down off the dribble, has very good vision, alongside being a good finisher at the basket. So the foundation for being a good 6th man is there.

Yeah if he can play that role then it works.

Caruso, Hield, LeBron, Davis, Love
Wright, THT, Matthews, Markieff, Gasol

That's a realistic team the Lakers could assemble with level of assets they have to trade. I think it's solid but far too expensive. Probably 40m in to luxury tax, I don't know what Lakers owners would afford in luxury tax but I assume that is too much.

I'd much rather go for Brook Lopez or Olynyk, who are both more reliable health wise than Love as a stretch 5.

There was a proposal on the trade board for TJ Warren and I think he'd be a near perfect fit on the Lakers.

zimpy27 wrote:Injury was a large part of the collapse this season but there were some important things to notice about the coaching and roster fit. These are some things I noticed:

Firstly, Vogel is not going to play liabilities on defense. Harrell is a strong example of this, Lakers brought in Drummond who is a better defending and poorer offensive archetype of Harrell. Drummond took all of Harrell minutes even though Harrell's offense was needed.

Secondly, the player doesn't have to be the best defender but he has to not be a liability, from there the value seemed to be ranked by offensive spacing. THT vs Caruso+KCP+Matthews. These guys all fill a similar role and THT couldn't get into the rotation because even though the others had a poor playoffs from 3, all those guys still provide spacing because of the threat that THT has not shown yet. Threat notoriety from 3 is a big factor in the NBA. Think of last playoffs, Rondo had no threat and was given open 3s which he just started hitting, Green was a huge threat from 3 and provided spacing even though he bombed out. Both were missed this year.

Thirdly, Schroeder and Kuzma are not great 3 shooters but had quite a lot of playoff minutes due to the improvement they bring to offense efficiency through playmaking and movement. Davis obviously has quite a big impact on offense despite being a below-average 3 shooter.

TLDR: Guys the Lakers should be looking to bring in the offseason - must not be a defensive liability, should be either a notorious threat from 3 (36%+ of past several seasons) OR be an efficient iso scorer OR provide offensive movement and playmaking

Group 1: Laker non-liability defenders that provide efficient offense through 2 of iso scoring, 3pt threats (last few seasons ~36%+), and good playmaking/movement
LeBron, Davis, Gasol, Caruso

Group 2: Laker non-liability defenders that provide necessary balance on offense through iso scoring, 3pt threats (last few seasons ~36%+), and playmaking/movement
Matthews, KCP, Schroeder, Kuzma

Group 3: Laker non-liability defenders that provide average or unnecessary offense through 1 of iso scoring, 3pt threats (last few seasons ~36%+), and playmaking/movement
THT, Markieff

Group 4: Laker liability defenders
McLemore, Harrell, McKinnie

Group 1 players will be kept and need to be added to.
Group 2 players should be kept unless they can be traded for Group 1 players, roster balance should still be considered.
Group 3 players should be traded if Group 1 or 2 player can be had or retained if the price is low.
Group 4 players are gone in FA or should be traded in the offseason.

Do you agree with this rationale? What are some players that you think the Lakers should go after in the offseason?

Well thought-out post. I think your rationale is spot on. Otto Porter Jr, Daniel Theis, Thomas Robinson, Hassan Whiteside are a few names that come to mind.

Ball so hard wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:

Spoiler:

Injury was a large part of the collapse this season but there were some important things to notice about the coaching and roster fit. These are some things I noticed:

Firstly, Vogel is not going to play liabilities on defense. Harrell is a strong example of this, Lakers brought in Drummond who is a better defending and poorer offensive archetype of Harrell. Drummond took all of Harrell minutes even though Harrell's offense was needed.

Secondly, the player doesn't have to be the best defender but he has to not be a liability, from there the value seemed to be ranked by offensive spacing. THT vs Caruso+KCP+Matthews. These guys all fill a similar role and THT couldn't get into the rotation because even though the others had a poor playoffs from 3, all those guys still provide spacing because of the threat that THT has not shown yet. Threat notoriety from 3 is a big factor in the NBA. Think of last playoffs, Rondo had no threat and was given open 3s which he just started hitting, Green was a huge threat from 3 and provided spacing even though he bombed out. Both were missed this year.

Thirdly, Schroeder and Kuzma are not great 3 shooters but had quite a lot of playoff minutes due to the improvement they bring to offense efficiency through playmaking and movement. Davis obviously has quite a big impact on offense despite being a below-average 3 shooter.

TLDR: Guys the Lakers should be looking to bring in the offseason - must not be a defensive liability, should be either a notorious threat from 3 (36%+ of past several seasons) OR be an efficient iso scorer OR provide offensive movement and playmaking

Group 1: Laker non-liability defenders that provide efficient offense through 2 of iso scoring, 3pt threats (last few seasons ~36%+), and good playmaking/movement
LeBron, Davis, Gasol, Caruso

Group 2: Laker non-liability defenders that provide necessary balance on offense through iso scoring, 3pt threats (last few seasons ~36%+), and playmaking/movement
Matthews, KCP, Schroeder, Kuzma

Group 3: Laker non-liability defenders that provide average or unnecessary offense through 1 of iso scoring, 3pt threats (last few seasons ~36%+), and playmaking/movement
THT, Markieff

Group 4: Laker liability defenders
McLemore, Harrell, McKinnie

Group 1 players will be kept and need to be added to.
Group 2 players should be kept unless they can be traded for Group 1 players, roster balance should still be considered.
Group 3 players should be traded if Group 1 or 2 player can be had or retained if the price is low.
Group 4 players are gone in FA or should be traded in the offseason.

Do you agree with this rationale? What are some players that you think the Lakers should go after in the offseason?

Well thought-out post. I think your rationale is spot on. Otto Porter Jr, Daniel Theis, Thomas Robinson, Hassan Whiteside are a few names that come to mind.

Yeah Theis and Porter Jr would be great but Lakes only have the taxMLE to spend. If that's enough for one then take them for sure. Lakers can't take on an SnT, it's very tough for them to avoid the tax this season.

Slava wrote:The biggest thing I’m missing from Kuzma is consistency. I can live with what Schröder brings once he fits more into a third option role alongside Lebron and AD but kuzma is there to add offense and he’s shown no consistency in doing that.

Kuzma combined with the 1st round pick has to be shopped. Just has to.

zimpy27 wrote:Quick examples of players Lakers could realistically trade for or try to pick up with TaxMLE

Playmaker: Melton, Wright, Walker, White, Lowry, Payne
Wing: DDV, O'Neale, Bazemore, Korkmaz, Connaughton, Green, Brooks, Hield, Rozier
Big: BroLo, Goga, Theis, Olynyk, Griffin, Love, Plumlee, Reid

I think we should be looking at Harrison Barnes. Kuzma, 1st rounder, Gasol gets the deal done. My dream scenario is acquiring him and moving AD almost full-time to the C position. Schroder, KCP, Barnes, LeBron, AD is a phenomenal starting 5.

TylersLakers wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:Quick examples of players Lakers could realistically trade for or try to pick up with TaxMLE

Playmaker: Melton, Wright, Walker, White, Lowry, Payne
Wing: DDV, O'Neale, Bazemore, Korkmaz, Connaughton, Green, Brooks, Hield, Rozier
Big: BroLo, Goga, Theis, Olynyk, Griffin, Love, Plumlee, Reid

I think we should be looking at Harrison Barnes. Kuzma, 1st rounder, Gasol gets the deal done. My dream scenario is acquiring him and moving AD almost full-time to the C position. Schroder, KCP, Barnes, LeBron, AD is a phenomenal starting 5.

What about Barnes+Hield for KCP+Kuzma+Harrell+Pick 22?
Schroeder, Hield, LeBron, Davis, Gasol -- Caruso, THT, Matthews, Barnes, Markieff

Let go of Harkless, Drummond, and Kuzma, replace Schroder with Rose, and resign Morris, Tucker, Caruso, McLemore, and Matthews.

They don't need much. They already have lots of really good role-players. Subtracting Harrell, Drummond, and Kuzma will only increase and add to the value of the guys who remain.

Eric Bieniemy wrote:Let go of Harkless, Drummond, and Kuzma, replace Schroder with Rose, and resign Morris, Tucker, Caruso, McLemore, and Matthews.

They don't need much. They already have lots of really good role-players. Subtracting Harrell, Drummond, and Kuzma will only increase and add to the value of the guys who remain.

As much as we would like to shed salary this would be a huge blow to our center position. If you are centering your team for AD then it’s best to keep him happy at PF and a minutes restriction at C. That leaves Gasol, and Cacock at C, which means players like Ayton, Jusif, jokic, embiid, and the likes of many athletic big men will dominate the boards.

Just comparing our championship year wasn’t only defense but it was also how well we controlled the boards on both ends. A rebound vacuum/ low post player would be a great addition. Personally I’d like to see if we can steal Jarret Allen.


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islander009 wrote:

Eric Bieniemy wrote:Let go of Harkless, Drummond, and Kuzma, replace Schroder with Rose, and resign Morris, Tucker, Caruso, McLemore, and Matthews.

They don't need much. They already have lots of really good role-players. Subtracting Harrell, Drummond, and Kuzma will only increase and add to the value of the guys who remain.

As much as we would like to shed salary this would be a huge blow to our center position. If you are centering your team for AD then it’s best to keep him happy at PF and a minutes restriction at C. That leaves Gasol, and Cacock at C, which means players like Ayton, Jusif, jokic, embiid, and the likes of many athletic big men will dominate the boards.

Just comparing our championship year wasn’t only defense but it was also how well we controlled the boards on both ends. A rebound vacuum/ low post player would be a great addition. Personally I’d like to see if we can steal Jarret Allen.


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I agree they need one more center, but he doesn't need to be nearly as good as Allen.

They just need a solid veteran guy who they plug in only in certain matchups. A guy like McGee would be fine. He wouldn't play nightly, but he'd be there in a pinch if Gasol, Davis, or Morris are unavailable or failing.

Think more minimum-level center instead of a guy like Allen.

islander009 wrote:

Eric Bieniemy wrote:Let go of Harkless, Drummond, and Kuzma, replace Schroder with Rose, and resign Morris, Tucker, Caruso, McLemore, and Matthews.

They don't need much. They already have lots of really good role-players. Subtracting Harrell, Drummond, and Kuzma will only increase and add to the value of the guys who remain.

As much as we would like to shed salary this would be a huge blow to our center position. If you are centering your team for AD then it’s best to keep him happy at PF and a minutes restriction at C. That leaves Gasol, and Cacock at C, which means players like Ayton, Jusif, jokic, embiid, and the likes of many athletic big men will dominate the boards.

Just comparing our championship year wasn’t only defense but it was also how well we controlled the boards on both ends. A rebound vacuum/ low post player would be a great addition. Personally I’d like to see if we can steal Jarret Allen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There's next to zero chance we can steal Jarret Allen.

zimpy27 wrote:

TylersLakers wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:Quick examples of players Lakers could realistically trade for or try to pick up with TaxMLE

Playmaker: Melton, Wright, Walker, White, Lowry, Payne
Wing: DDV, O'Neale, Bazemore, Korkmaz, Connaughton, Green, Brooks, Hield, Rozier
Big: BroLo, Goga, Theis, Olynyk, Griffin, Love, Plumlee, Reid

I think we should be looking at Harrison Barnes. Kuzma, 1st rounder, Gasol gets the deal done. My dream scenario is acquiring him and moving AD almost full-time to the C position. Schroder, KCP, Barnes, LeBron, AD is a phenomenal starting 5.

What about Barnes+Hield for KCP+Kuzma+Harrell+Pick 22?
Schroeder, Hield, LeBron, Davis, Gasol -- Caruso, THT, Matthews, Barnes, Markieff

I'd love that, but I think Harrell is opting out. John Hollinger did a big thing in The Athletic today where he went through all the options and made his guesses based on his money formula for how much players are worth.

My roster and my preference wouldn't include THT. He's not ready for prime time playoff action and I want to max out on these next 2 years while LeBron's still great. If we could make a sign and trade for THT to go to Indiana for Lamb and Justin Holiday, I'd absolutely love that.

- Barnes for Kuzma, Gasol, #22 (deal happens after moratorium)
- Re-sign Caruso (3 year deal, starting at 10M)
- Re-sign Schroder (either 3 years starting at 16-18M or 2 years starting at 22-25M)
- Sign and trade THT for Justin Holiday, Lamb
- Split MLE between Wayne Ellington and Nerlens Noel
- Sign Carmelo, George Hill, Aaron Baynes to vet minimum deals
- Re-sign Morris
- Buy a 2nd round draft pick for a young player.

Starters: Schroder, KCP, Barnes, LeBron, Davis
Rotation Bench: Caruso, Holiday, Ellington, Noel, Melo
Deep Bench: Hill, Baynes, Markieff, 2nd rounder, Lamb

I want dudes who are going to be able to play in playoff games. On that roster, everyone in our rotation (starters and rotation bench) can come into a playoff game and hang. I trust every one of those guys to knock down shots over what we had this year. LeBron is now a PF at this stage of his career and AD is a 5 - simple and plain. I know AD won't like it initially, but that's where the front office and coaching staff needs to sit down with AD, LeBron, and Klutch and sell them on why he needs to play more 5 and how the offense will open up more with that happening. AD actually spoke in his exit interview about getting with LeBron and the coaching staff and figuring out ways where those two can be better offensively. It starts with more shooting and more offensive creativity. AD should be the guy in the dunker spot, picking and rolling or picking and popping. Also, when you acquire a player like Barnes, it'll give AD yet another reason to make the change to the 5 more. I don't think Kuz or anything that we have on the roster currently is good enough to make him want to play the 5 more.

With this roster and having Baynes and Noel, he doesn't have to play the 5 full time either. If we need to bring Barnes off the bench in bigger match-ups and start Noel or Baynes, we can. There's only a few match-ups around the league where you don't want to play AD to play heavy minutes banging against huge guys. Jokic, Embiid, etc. Also, I want to see LeBron in the post more next season. He's getting older, I don't want him having to be relied on to make every play. Get him on the block and he can initiate offense through the high post. He can put someone on his back and get to the rim, shoot his fadeaway J, or make those ridiculous cross-court lazers to shooters.

That line-up has more offensive versatility, way more shooting, more perimeter D, etc.