realgm lakers board top 30 nba players ranking (round 1)

[dice]

the 30 number is tentative, chosen to equal the number of nba teams. i'll lower it if necessary

i'm gonna do the initial top 5 by some combination of who gets the most polling votes and rankings presented in the body of the thread. so gimme your ranked top 10 there as well

i've included an 'other' option in the poll given that there are obviously more than 10 players worthy of top 5 consideration. so if you choose that option, please tell me who your "write in" candidate would be

consider only who you would like to build a team around for the '21-'22 season, not who to start a franchise with or salary considerations or chemistry with the current lakers roster

[TyCobb]

No Luka? Lol

[dice]

No Luka? Lol

given that he's not a great defender, not much of a shooter and turns the ball over a lot...pretty damn tough to be a top 10 player w/ all of those liabilities, innit? but he certainly might be. and the main reason i included the 'other' option

what would be laughable is thinking that he's significantly better than anyone on that list, which apparently you do. but you have yet to say that he's in your top 5, so until then it won't be counted as such. lulz

[lazybatman]

AD got less votes than KD, Steph, Giannis & Joker

Also guys who don't play defense and can have 50 point games in losses.. SMH!

[dice]

AD got less votes than KD, Steph, Giannis & Joker

Also guys who don't play defense and can have 50 point games in losses.. SMH!

records in games where they scored 50+:

curry 6-2
KD 5-2
AD 3-1
giannis 1-1
joker 0-1 (50-12-8 game w/ 3 blocks and a single turnover)

weird criteria for player quality

also pretty bizarre that you wouldn't expect the reigning MVP to get pretty universal consideration as a top 5 player

[Michael Lucky]

The idea that cp3 makes this list but Luka doesnt is utterly ridiculous.

[lazybatman]

AD got less votes than KD, Steph, Giannis & Joker

Also guys who don't play defense and can have 50 point games in losses.. SMH!

records in games where they scored 50+:

curry 6-2
KD 5-2
AD 3-1
giannis 1-1
joker 0-1 (50-12-8 game w/ 3 blocks and a single turnover)

weird criteria for player quality

also pretty bizarre that you wouldn't expect the reigning MVP to get pretty universal consideration as a top 5 player

My point being AD's random 25-10 games can completely change the way elite offenses play against the Lakers right now. The extreme focus on scoring, as if nothing else(defense / playmaking / game management) matters is a bit dumb. Has always been that way, but now with the league favouring skinny offensive players like never before, there's an even lesser motivation for players to try to defend.

Curry & KD are sieves. Joker is under rated. And Giannis is a specialist free safety, and could not guard KD to save his life, as we saw.

60+ years into it and we still don't have great defensive metrics to quantify an elite or terrible defensive player's impact on the game. AD deserves more respect than this IMO.

[dice]

AD got less votes than KD, Steph, Giannis & Joker

Also guys who don't play defense and can have 50 point games in losses.. SMH!

records in games where they scored 50+:

curry 6-2
KD 5-2
AD 3-1
giannis 1-1
joker 0-1 (50-12-8 game w/ 3 blocks and a single turnover)

weird criteria for player quality

also pretty bizarre that you wouldn't expect the reigning MVP to get pretty universal consideration as a top 5 player

My point being AD's random 25-10 games can completely change the way elite offenses play against the Lakers right now. The extreme focus on scoring, as if nothing else(defense / playmaking / game management) matters is a bit dumb. Has always been that way, but now with the league favouring skinny offensive players like never before, there's an even lesser motivation for players to try to defend.

Curry & KD are sieves. Joker is under rated. And Giannis is a specialist free safety, and could not guard KD to save his life, as we saw.

60+ years into it and we still don't have great defensive metrics to quantify an elite or terrible defensive player's impact on the game. AD deserves more respect than this IMO.

RAPM over the long haul i think does a good job at evaluating defensive impact. the following site is the best out there as far as i can tell:

https://www.bball-index.com/lebron-database/

here are the career defensive impact plus-minuses for the players in question:

1.99 AD
1.91 giannis
1.18 jokic
0.39 KD
0.00 curry

includes defensive rebounding, of course. not exactly a huge gulf. curry has been a tad underwater over the past 4 seasons though

[dockingsched]

Lock this up, you’re really going to put CP3 as an option instead if Luka, Dame, Embiid?

[dice]

Lock this up, you’re really going to put CP3 as an option instead if Luka, Dame, Embiid?

i would expect a lakers fan to know basketball a little better than this

shooting cp3 >> doncic
playmaking cp3 >>> doncic
defense cp3 >> doncic

doncic obviously has more of a scoring arsenal, but misses too many shots at this stage of his career to be truly elite. he also rebounds significantly better, but that's only particularly important at the PG position if the objective is to hunt triple doubles rather than win (see russell westbrook)

it's fine to think that doncic is a better player. but to think that he is significantly better, which apparently you do, is sheer foolishness. doncic would simply not have the suns in as good a position to win an nba title that chris paul does right now. the disrespect is appalling

[EArl]

CP3 should not be on this list. Luka should.

[Tommytank]

Glad LBJ is topping the list

[LAL1947]

I'm answering this from the perspective of who is best at this time, not looking at their careers... i.e., who I'd pick over others if making a dream 5 team today to play against those not in the 5.

1. Durant
2. Luka (he will be #1 soon enough)
3. Kawhi
4. Lebron

5-9. Curry, Giannis, Joker, Embiid, Harden

10. Dame Lillard
11. AD

Curry, Gianis, Joker, Embiid and Harden... it's fluid between those 5, depending on what they're doing with their teams at any given time... so I took the easy route and lumped them together. For example, Giannis would be #5 after this playoff season... but could be #9 after next year's playoffs are done.

AD can and should be higher up the list... needs to show what he's made of more consistently IMO.

[CrowsEye2120]

I think its still LeBron, he's still the best blend of scoring/playmaking. No one can dictate the flow of a big game like him. I have the current Top 5 as:

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Giannis
4. Curry
5. Kawhi

[LAL1947]

Lock this up, you’re really going to put CP3 as an option instead if Luka, Dame, Embiid?

i would expect a lakers fan to know basketball a little better than this

shooting cp3 >> doncic
playmaking cp3 >>> doncic
defense cp3 >> doncic

doncic obviously has more of a scoring arsenal, but misses too many shots at this stage of his career to be truly elite. he also rebounds significantly better, but that's only particularly important at the PG position if the objective is to hunt triple doubles rather than win (see russell westbrook)

it's fine to think that doncic is a better player. but to think that he is significantly better, which apparently you do, is sheer foolishness. doncic would simply not have the suns in as good a position to win an nba title that chris paul does right now. the disrespect is appalling

I agree with @Dockingsched and think you're tripping. CP3 had his team go on an amazing run but Luka is a significantly better player at this time. This should not even be up for debate. The guy put up a 28pts/8asts/8rebs regular season... then almost gave the Clippers (with a healthy Kawhi) the business by himself, putting up 36pts/10asts/8rebs in the playoffs. Also, he has ice in his veins, CP3 usually chokes at the final hurdle.

If you switched Luka and CP3 on Dallas and Phoenix, which team goes further?
Luka, Booker, Bridges, Crowder, Ayton
CP3, Hardaway, DFS, Porzingis, Kleber

I'd venture that this hypothetical Luka-led Suns would've won it all, with the hindsight of now knowing the injuries that other top contenders had (like the Nets). Whereas the CP3-led Mavs most likely wouldn't have even made the playoffs.

Edit: After having made this post, I'd really like to see Luka and Booker team up somewhere and give it to other established stars that have gone about creating super-teams. The deck will be too stacked against these 2 young stars next season when everyone is healthy (as well as against Dame and Donovan Mitchell if they stay put)... so the sooner they get on a team with another young star, the better. Also feel Luka and Booker would end up complementing each other very well.

[dice]

Lock this up, you’re really going to put CP3 as an option instead if Luka, Dame, Embiid?

i would expect a lakers fan to know basketball a little better than this

shooting cp3 >> doncic
playmaking cp3 >>> doncic
defense cp3 >> doncic

doncic obviously has more of a scoring arsenal, but misses too many shots at this stage of his career to be truly elite. he also rebounds significantly better, but that's only particularly important at the PG position if the objective is to hunt triple doubles rather than win (see russell westbrook)

it's fine to think that doncic is a better player. but to think that he is significantly better, which apparently you do, is sheer foolishness. doncic would simply not have the suns in as good a position to win an nba title that chris paul does right now. the disrespect is appalling

I agree with @Dockingsched and think you're tripping. CP3 had his team go on an amazing run but Luka is a significantly better player at this time. This should not even be up for debate. The guy put up a 28pts/8asts/8rebs regular season... then almost gave the Clippers (with a healthy Kawhi) the business by himself, putting up 36pts/10asts/8rebs in the playoffs. Also, he has ice in his veins, CP3 usually chokes at the final hurdle.

If you switched Luka and CP3 on Dallas and Phoenix, which team goes further?
Luka, Booker, Bridges, Crowder, Ayton
CP3, Hardaway, DFS, Porzingis, Kleber

I'd venture that this hypothetical Luka-led Suns would've won it all, with the hindsight of now knowing the injuries that other top contenders had (like the Nets). Whereas the CP3-led Mavs most likely wouldn't have even made the playoffs.

Edit: After having made this post, I'd really like to see Luka and Booker team up somewhere and give it to other established stars that have gone about creating super-teams. The deck will be too stacked against these 2 young stars next season when everyone is healthy (as well as against Dame and Donovan Mitchell if they stay put)... so the sooner they get on a team with another young star, the better. Also feel Luka and Booker would end up complementing each other very well.

most people don't seem to understand that taking a lot of shots and thus scoring a lot of points does not make someone a great scorer. missing a lot of shots is...wait for it...bad! luka doncic is currently NOT an elite scorer. i assume that he'll get there, but he's not there now. cp3 doesn't take nearly as many shots, but when he does he's significantly more likely to PUT IT IN THE HOLE

most people also don't seem to understand that defense matters. a hell of a lot. luka doncic is a mediocre defender. cp3 has been an OUTSTANDING defender over the course of his career. huge advantage cp3

finally, most people don't seem to understand that a point guard with a high assist-to-turnover ratio does wonders for an offense. you shouldn't have to look beyond your very own team to recognize that. magic johnson's career #s per 100 possessions:

25/9/15/5to 61%TS

cp3:

27/7/14/4 58%TS

slight edge to magic? not when you factor in defense

are you going to tell me i'm "tripping" when i tell you that magic johnson was better for the '80s lakers than luka doncic would have been? because if you say that otherwise in this forum you're likely to get seriously flamed. and rightfully so. yet it's pretty much the same thing you just said in your post when you disrespected cp3

know how many shoot first point guards have led their team to a championship in the HISTORY of the nba? A: exactly ONE. stephen curry. luka is not steph curry. not particularly close. not yet. can't just take more shots. gotta MAKE more shots

i hope that cp3 doesn't leave phoenix to hunt easier championships like the lebrons and durants and ADs of the world. but on the other hand, if he does, yet another team that cp3 leaves will find themselves in a world of hurt. maybe that's what it will take for people like yourself to finally get the message

[snaquille oatmeal]

No Luka? Lol

given that he's not a great defender, not much of a shooter and turns the ball over a lot...pretty damn tough to be a top 10 player w/ all of those liabilities, innit? but he certainly might be. and the main reason i included the 'other' option

what would be laughable is thinking that he's significantly better than anyone on that list, which apparently you do. but you have yet to say that he's in your top 5, so until then it won't be counted as such. lulz

Luka not a great defender yet Harden makes the list?

I call shenanigans

[dice]

No Luka? Lol

given that he's not a great defender, not much of a shooter and turns the ball over a lot...pretty damn tough to be a top 10 player w/ all of those liabilities, innit? but he certainly might be. and the main reason i included the 'other' option

what would be laughable is thinking that he's significantly better than anyone on that list, which apparently you do. but you have yet to say that he's in your top 5, so until then it won't be counted as such. lulz

Luka not a great defender yet Harden makes the list?

I call shenanigans

1) harden has been an underrated defender for several years now. i believe that he is one of the very best in the league in the post. and he's got lightening fast hands for retrieving loose balls and playing sneaky help D
2) harden is a more efficient scorer

8 people on this board voted harden as a top 5 player. 4 people (at most) voted for doncic. and doncic is the more likable player

[LAL1947]

i would expect a lakers fan to know basketball a little better than this

shooting cp3 >> doncic
playmaking cp3 >>> doncic
defense cp3 >> doncic

doncic obviously has more of a scoring arsenal, but misses too many shots at this stage of his career to be truly elite. he also rebounds significantly better, but that's only particularly important at the PG position if the objective is to hunt triple doubles rather than win (see russell westbrook)

it's fine to think that doncic is a better player. but to think that he is significantly better, which apparently you do, is sheer foolishness. doncic would simply not have the suns in as good a position to win an nba title that chris paul does right now. the disrespect is appalling

I agree with @Dockingsched and think you're tripping. CP3 had his team go on an amazing run but Luka is a significantly better player at this time. This should not even be up for debate. The guy put up a 28pts/8asts/8rebs regular season... then almost gave the Clippers (with a healthy Kawhi) the business by himself, putting up 36pts/10asts/8rebs in the playoffs. Also, he has ice in his veins, CP3 usually chokes at the final hurdle.

If you switched Luka and CP3 on Dallas and Phoenix, which team goes further?
Luka, Booker, Bridges, Crowder, Ayton
CP3, Hardaway, DFS, Porzingis, Kleber

I'd venture that this hypothetical Luka-led Suns would've won it all, with the hindsight of now knowing the injuries that other top contenders had (like the Nets). Whereas the CP3-led Mavs most likely wouldn't have even made the playoffs.

Edit: After having made this post, I'd really like to see Luka and Booker team up somewhere and give it to other established stars that have gone about creating super-teams. The deck will be too stacked against these 2 young stars next season when everyone is healthy (as well as against Dame and Donovan Mitchell if they stay put)... so the sooner they get on a team with another young star, the better. Also feel Luka and Booker would end up complementing each other very well.

most people don't seem to understand that taking a lot of shots and thus scoring a lot of points does not make someone a great scorer. missing a lot of shots is...wait for it...bad! luka doncic is currently NOT an elite scorer. i assume that he'll get there, but he's not there now. cp3 doesn't take nearly as many shots, but when he does he's significantly more likely to PUT IT IN THE HOLE

most people also don't seem to understand that defense matters. a hell of a lot. luka doncic is a mediocre defender. cp3 has been an OUTSTANDING defender over the course of his career. huge advantage cp3

finally, most people don't seem to understand that a point guard with a high assist-to-turnover ratio does wonders for an offense. you shouldn't have to look beyond your very own team to recognize that. magic johnson's career #s per 100 possessions:

25/9/15/5to 61%TS

cp3:

27/7/14/4 58%TS

slight edge to magic? not when you factor in defense

are you going to tell me i'm "tripping" when i tell you that magic johnson was better for the '80s lakers than luka doncic would have been? because if you say that otherwise in this forum you're likely to get seriously flamed. and rightfully so. yet it's pretty much the same thing you just said in your post when you disrespected cp3

know how many shoot first point guards have led their team to a championship in the HISTORY of the nba? A: exactly ONE. stephen curry. luka is not steph curry. not particularly close. not yet. can't just take more shots. gotta MAKE more shots

i hope that cp3 doesn't leave phoenix to hunt easier championships like the lebrons and durants and ADs of the world. but on the other hand, if he does, yet another team that cp3 leaves will find themselves in a world of hurt. maybe that's what it will take for people like yourself to finally get the message

You seem to have a lot of opinions on what "most people don't seem to understand"... perhaps, I should point out that you don't seem to see greatness until it smacks you in the head... or until you have the benefit of hindsight. There is not a player in the league who the Mavs would trade Luka for, with good reason.

Anyway, most of this post is subjective, as in you're making up "facts" and using them as the basis for your argument... so I have no real means of replying to any of your points. For example: 1) hypothestizing that I think Luka is a great scorer because he puts up points alone, rather than looking at the level of each of his skills that allows him to score in so many different ways against anyone at any time... 2) saying that he is a "shoot first point guard" who "just takes a lot of shots", while ignoring everything else he does... 3) that example regarding Magic, which I do not understand at all... etc. And you're saying all that while ignoring the caliber/talent of the teammates on their respective teams in this playoffs (i.e., Mavs vs Suns). Also, I did not diss CP3, he was great in his own prime... but in his prime, he is no longer. Don't live in the past when you make this comparison AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME. I'd rather not get further into long-drawn discussions of this sort... so toodles.

[dice]

I agree with @Dockingsched and think you're tripping. CP3 had his team go on an amazing run but Luka is a significantly better player at this time. This should not even be up for debate. The guy put up a 28pts/8asts/8rebs regular season... then almost gave the Clippers (with a healthy Kawhi) the business by himself, putting up 36pts/10asts/8rebs in the playoffs. Also, he has ice in his veins, CP3 usually chokes at the final hurdle.

If you switched Luka and CP3 on Dallas and Phoenix, which team goes further?
Luka, Booker, Bridges, Crowder, Ayton
CP3, Hardaway, DFS, Porzingis, Kleber

I'd venture that this hypothetical Luka-led Suns would've won it all, with the hindsight of now knowing the injuries that other top contenders had (like the Nets). Whereas the CP3-led Mavs most likely wouldn't have even made the playoffs.

Edit: After having made this post, I'd really like to see Luka and Booker team up somewhere and give it to other established stars that have gone about creating super-teams. The deck will be too stacked against these 2 young stars next season when everyone is healthy (as well as against Dame and Donovan Mitchell if they stay put)... so the sooner they get on a team with another young star, the better. Also feel Luka and Booker would end up complementing each other very well.

most people don't seem to understand that taking a lot of shots and thus scoring a lot of points does not make someone a great scorer. missing a lot of shots is...wait for it...bad! luka doncic is currently NOT an elite scorer. i assume that he'll get there, but he's not there now. cp3 doesn't take nearly as many shots, but when he does he's significantly more likely to PUT IT IN THE HOLE

most people also don't seem to understand that defense matters. a hell of a lot. luka doncic is a mediocre defender. cp3 has been an OUTSTANDING defender over the course of his career. huge advantage cp3

finally, most people don't seem to understand that a point guard with a high assist-to-turnover ratio does wonders for an offense. you shouldn't have to look beyond your very own team to recognize that. magic johnson's career #s per 100 possessions:

25/9/15/5to 61%TS

cp3:

27/7/14/4 58%TS

slight edge to magic? not when you factor in defense

are you going to tell me i'm "tripping" when i tell you that magic johnson was better for the '80s lakers than luka doncic would have been? because if you say that otherwise in this forum you're likely to get seriously flamed. and rightfully so. yet it's pretty much the same thing you just said in your post when you disrespected cp3

know how many shoot first point guards have led their team to a championship in the HISTORY of the nba? A: exactly ONE. stephen curry. luka is not steph curry. not particularly close. not yet. can't just take more shots. gotta MAKE more shots

i hope that cp3 doesn't leave phoenix to hunt easier championships like the lebrons and durants and ADs of the world. but on the other hand, if he does, yet another team that cp3 leaves will find themselves in a world of hurt. maybe that's what it will take for people like yourself to finally get the message

You seem to have a lot of opinions on what "most people don't seem to understand"... perhaps, I should point out that you don't seem to see greatness until it smacks you in the head... or until you have the benefit of hindsight. There is not a player in the league who the Mavs would trade Luka for, with good reason.

you just changed the subject. unsurprising

Anyway, most of this post is subjective, as in you're making up "facts" and using them as the basis for your argument

things like total shot percentage and assist to turnover ratio are not "facts". they are facts. not subjective. completely OBjective.
learn the difference

For example: 1) hypothestizing that I think Luka is a great scorer because he puts up points alone

i never said that. you're lying. i merely said that points alone are NOT THE WHOLE STORY

rather than looking at the level of each of his skills that allows him to score in so many different ways against anyone at any time...

the only scoring skill that matters is putting it in the hole. i don't give a good goddamn whether a guy can put his defender in the spin cycle en route to missing the shot

saying that he is a "shoot first point guard" who "just takes a lot of shots", while ignoring everything else he does...

another lie. i never said that luka "just takes a lot of shots." fake quote. i was speaking in generalities. nor did i ignore the other things that he does. YOU'RE ignoring the importance of defense. and turnovers, while focusing on the basic points/rebounds/assists stat line, which you were quite happy to cite in your initial post while ignoring important context

3) that example regarding Magic, which I do not understand at all...

that doesn't surprise me. it was pretty basic, though: cp3 provides the same show-running abilities that magic did, can hit the open jumper just like magic did, and plays way better defense. just doesn't rebound like magic. very similar players in terms of their impact on a game. magic was just more fun to watch. and luka probably wouldn't have won 5 titles playing in his place in the '80s. and that's down to the importance of pass first point guards when he has teammates that are capable scorers. which is not to say that luka is playing the wrong way, particularly with his current team

And you're saying all that while ignoring the caliber/talent of the teammates on their respective teams in this playoffs (i.e., Mavs vs Suns).

not ignoring it at all. you made that up. did i say that cp3 would have taken the mavs to the finals? no, i did not. what i said was that cp3 THIS SEASON was marginally better equipped to take the suns where they went than luka would have been

Also, I did not diss CP3, he was great in his own prime... but in his prime, he is no longer.

he was greatER in his prime, but chris paul was great this season. to not acknowledge that is a display of stupefying ignorance

Don't live in the past when you make this comparison AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME. I'd rather not get further into long-drawn discussions of this sort... so toodles.

you JUST made the argument that the mavs wouldn't trade luka for anyone else. why is that? because he is the FUTURE. many years of greatness ahead. chris paul was just the main factor in transforming the suns into a finals team. that IS the present. will he have the same mojo next season? i don't know. time will tell

good riddance to illogic and lies