Game 43: LA Lakers at Denver Nuggets Jan. 15, 2022 8:00

[Beethoven]

Let's trade everybody for Caruso and a bag of chips and let's build around those two.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Blow it up.

[Freighttrain]

Jup it's time. Free sale baby.

[Revived]

Ariza is cooked. This team needs a wing in the worst way. The Grant trade needs to happen or this season is essentially finished.

He was cooked when the Suns dumped him for Kelly freaking Oubre. That was like 3 years ago.

[Slava]

Pelinka is a **** moron if he really thought he could bank on Ariza and Westbrook being key contributors in 2022.

[Hans1984]

Can't wait for the season to end. We need a complete rebuild.

[Landsberger]

A couple things about Ariza. I'm not sure he was ever as good as Lakers fans have made him out to be.... and he's been done for a few years now other than a couple games a month. He was a bit contributor at best option for us this year.

Westbrook is what he's always been...... undisciplined, lacks BBIQ and completely ill equipped to be on a team where he's not the number one option. So often teams try the gathering of veteran"stars" approach thinking that it's all additive when often these guys don't know how to be "off" the ball or a supporting team member. The Knicks have tried this so many times it's not funny over the last 30 years with no success.... Houston did a few years ago and NJ is now.

One of our problems is LeBron. Not in a specifically bad way but he's used to dominating the ball when he's in "game" situations. His approach earlier in his career was to get to the hoop. Now he seems to dribble the clock out and shoot a 3. To me, when I guy can shoot 70% in the paint and draw fouls is shooting 3's from 35' instead, we've got a larger problem than the make up of the team. We need a system that can rely on ball movement rather than the dominance of just one player in those situations.

[danfantastk32]

A couple things about Ariza. I'm not sure he was ever as good as Lakers fans have made him out to be....

Hey now....Ariza was really good his first go 'round. Was he fighting Kobe for 'best on the squad'?? Of course not. But he was a decent shooter, good slasher, moved well without the ball, and was one hell of a defender. Had a knack for stealing inbound passes, and was just one of those guys that your team needs to be deep and dominant. Iggy.....different player, and I'd say Iggy was prob a bit better in his prime...but that kind of guy. Did all the things that needed to be done.

Speaking of done....yes, he's done now. But he was great for us back when.

[danfantastk32]

Well Magic is weighing in. Not sure that helps....but that's never stopped him.

He's 100% correct....but I'd rather he stay out of it. I read that Lebron took off without talking to media. Perhaps he asked Magic to say something? It's been well documented that he's the more passive aggressive type.

Although, to be fair, 37-point losses have a way of "cutting to the truth". This team ain't got no fight. Nor will it. I'm sure Lebron is frustrated and over this.....doubled by the fact that getting Westbrook was HIS doing. And as a fan, and one of the great Laker leaders, who has 5 titles, and 9 finals appearances to back him up......Magic is right to feel 37 points is unacceptable.

I just hope this was the knock to the head that brought everyone back to the real world. AD ain't gonna fix this when he comes back. This team is fatally flawed. If they can somehow move Westbrook by the deadline, great. Otherwise.....go out and get some fresh air, and come back after the 22-23 season.

I'll beat the rush and apologize to Vogel for being the fall guy. And when the next coach is completely unable to stop Lebron and Westbrook from playing their iso-ball style....and unable to get this team to play defense, I can say I told you so.

It would be fun to watch Phil deal with Westbrook. I wonder what books he'd give to him? Doubt it would do any good. But it would prob get people to stop blaming the coach for this mess.

[tamaraw08]

Most frustrating for me is that most of us wanted certain things to happen to help them win.
1. Bench DAJ, done
2. don't start THT, he's not a great fit with Lebron. done.
3. Start Monk, he's a good scorer. done.
4. Play Reaves more, done.
5. Westbrook must stop turning the ball over. He's averaging .8 turnovers the last 5 games. 0 again this game.
6. Russ needs to shoot better, he shot 50% from 3, 46% .
7. Let's extend and play Stanley Johnson more games. done.
I am NOT SAYING Westbrook is free from the blame here because he is clearly part of the problem.

[Ball so hard]

Most frustrating for me is that most of us wanted certain things to happen to help them win.
1. Bench DAJ, done
2. don't start THT, he's not a great fit with Lebron. done.
3. Start Monk, he's a good scorer. done.
4. Play Reaves more, done.
5. Westbrook must stop turning the ball over. He's averaging .8 turnovers the last 5 games. 0 again this game.
6. Russ needs to shoot better, he shot 50% from 3, 46% .
7. Let's extend and play Stanley Johnson more games. done.
I am NOT SAYING Westbrook is free from the blame here because he is clearly part of the problem.

It’s really not that complicated… Lakers hasn’t looked like a good or even a solid team all year, going all the way back to the pre-season. Anyone who thought otherwise were deluding themself. Beating a few garbage teams that were missing key players never impressed me. I’m hardly surprised by what has happened the past two games… it’s not even prophetic. Anyone who’s honest with themselves saw this coming. Where are the Ariza & Nunn will turn this team around crowd? Ariza shouldn’t even be playing, period. I’ll give it a few more games before I bump the Ariza & Nunn our saviors thread.

[tamaraw08]

Most frustrating for me is that most of us wanted certain things to happen to help them win.
1. Bench DAJ, done
2. don't start THT, he's not a great fit with Lebron. done.
3. Start Monk, he's a good scorer. done.
4. Play Reaves more, done.
5. Westbrook must stop turning the ball over. He's averaging .8 turnovers the last 5 games. 0 again this game.
6. Russ needs to shoot better, he shot 50% from 3, 46% .
7. Let's extend and play Stanley Johnson more games. done.
I am NOT SAYING Westbrook is free from the blame here because he is clearly part of the problem.

It’s really not that complicated… Lakers hasn’t looked like a good or even a solid team all year, going all the way back to the pre-season. Anyone who thought otherwise were deluding themself. Beating a few garbage teams that were missing key players never impressed me. I’m hardly surprised by what has happened the past two games… it’s not even prophetic. Anyone who’s honest with themselves saw this coming. Where are the Ariza & Nunn will turn this team around crowd? Ariza shouldn’t even be playing, period. I’ll give it a few more games before I bump the Ariza & Nunn our saviors thread.

Ariza looks really old and has lost a lot of quickness and lift but if he was really awful, then a smart coach like Spoelstra wouldn't have played him for 28 mins/game. Same with Nunn who played 29.5 mins/game.
My point is Vogel has been doing a lot of adjustments, benching ineffective players etc and it's not really making any difference losing badly to bad teams or good teams missing key players. Clippers are missing 2-3 starters and they are playing much harder than the Lakers.

[Ball so hard]

Most frustrating for me is that most of us wanted certain things to happen to help them win.
1. Bench DAJ, done
2. don't start THT, he's not a great fit with Lebron. done.
3. Start Monk, he's a good scorer. done.
4. Play Reaves more, done.
5. Westbrook must stop turning the ball over. He's averaging .8 turnovers the last 5 games. 0 again this game.
6. Russ needs to shoot better, he shot 50% from 3, 46% .
7. Let's extend and play Stanley Johnson more games. done.
I am NOT SAYING Westbrook is free from the blame here because he is clearly part of the problem.

It’s really not that complicated… Lakers hasn’t looked like a good or even a solid team all year, going all the way back to the pre-season. Anyone who thought otherwise were deluding themself. Beating a few garbage teams that were missing key players never impressed me. I’m hardly surprised by what has happened the past two games… it’s not even prophetic. Anyone who’s honest with themselves saw this coming. Where are the Ariza & Nunn will turn this team around crowd? Ariza shouldn’t even be playing, period. I’ll give it a few more games before I bump the Ariza & Nunn our saviors thread.

Ariza looks really old and has lost a lot of quickness and lift but if he was really awful, then a smart coach like Spoelstra wouldn't have played him for 28 mins/game. Same with Nunn who played 29.5 mins/game.
My point is Vogel has been doing a lot of adjustments, benching ineffective players etc and it's not really making any difference losing badly to bad teams or good teams missing key players. Clippers are missing 2-3 starters and they are playing much harder than the Lakers.

It certainly wouldn’t be the first time a player looks awful on one team and looks amazing in a different situation shortly thereafter. That’s not even close to being the case for Ariza. Ariza has been bad for a few years now… the stats back this up. Most people know this as well. I’m not going to pretend as if I watched a ton of Nunn last season… however, I’ve seen enough to know what to expect. He’s an offensive fire punch and a defensive liability. He’s a 6 2” 190 lbs guard that offers zero versatility on defense. Given that we seem to switch everything on defense, what do you expect when a team inevitably target him on a switch?

Your point about Vogel supports what I’ve been saying for quite some time. This roster is a joke. Is there anyone who deserves more playing time than they’re currently receiving? Name a name! I’ve criticized some of Vogel’s substitutions, but by and large they have been on point. Bradley has been one of our best defenders. Monk is one of our better offensive players. Since no coach would have the chutzpah to bench Russ, let’s assume he’s a lock to start. Bradley or Monk must go to the bench. Who’s better on the bench? THT, Ariza, Stanley? It’s like Vogel is throwing **** darts at this point and I don’t entirely fault him for it.

[Danny Darko]

THT (still with age and potential)

You all said the same thing with Kuzma ... THT is worse then Kuzma (currently) and Kuzma had to keep changing his role every year with the Lakers and now look at him:) ...

I'm not going through the same pains with THT in hoping he'd grow into what we all expect him to, we should have kept Caruso and paid him and let THT go

Kuz was drafter at 22 years old. THT just turned in year 3...
Kuz also won a championship as a key piece with us and is tearing it up on a team with a better record than we have... what the hell do you think your trading THT for?

Read on Twitter

[euphorbus]

Most frustrating for me is that most of us wanted certain things to happen to help them win.

1. Bench DAJ, done
2. don't start THT, he's not a great fit with Lebron. done.
3. Start Monk, he's a good scorer. done.
4. Play Reaves more, done.
5. Westbrook must stop turning the ball over. He's averaging .8 turnovers the last 5 games. 0 again this game.
6. Russ needs to shoot better, he shot 50% from 3, 46% .
7. Let's extend and play Stanley Johnson more games. done.

I am NOT SAYING Westbrook is free from the blame here because he is clearly part of the problem.

I think Frank Vogel is a very good coach and has done as well as anyone could expect under the circumstances, but this is an almost uncoachable team facing a long series of disruptions. And he seems to have lost the players' confidence or attention.

[stan francisco]

THT (still with age and potential)

You all said the same thing with Kuzma ... THT is worse then Kuzma (currently) and Kuzma had to keep changing his role every year with the Lakers and now look at him:) ...

I'm not going through the same pains with THT in hoping he'd grow into what we all expect him to, we should have kept Caruso and paid him and let THT go

Kuz was drafter at 22 years old. THT just turned in year 3...
Kuz also won a championship as a key piece with us and is tearing it up on a team with a better record than we have... what the hell do you think your trading THT for?

Read on Twitter

I miss Kuz. Hilarious tweet.

[tamaraw08]

It’s really not that complicated… Lakers hasn’t looked like a good or even a solid team all year, going all the way back to the pre-season. Anyone who thought otherwise were deluding themself. Beating a few garbage teams that were missing key players never impressed me. I’m hardly surprised by what has happened the past two games… it’s not even prophetic. Anyone who’s honest with themselves saw this coming. Where are the Ariza & Nunn will turn this team around crowd? Ariza shouldn’t even be playing, period. I’ll give it a few more games before I bump the Ariza & Nunn our saviors thread.

Ariza looks really old and has lost a lot of quickness and lift but if he was really awful, then a smart coach like Spoelstra wouldn't have played him for 28 mins/game. Same with Nunn who played 29.5 mins/game.
My point is Vogel has been doing a lot of adjustments, benching ineffective players etc and it's not really making any difference losing badly to bad teams or good teams missing key players. Clippers are missing 2-3 starters and they are playing much harder than the Lakers.

It certainly wouldn’t be the first time a player looks awful on one team and looks amazing in a different situation shortly thereafter. That’s not even close to being the case for Ariza. Ariza has been bad for a few years now… the stats back this up. Most people know this as well. I’m not going to pretend as if I watched a ton of Nunn last season… however, I’ve seen enough to know what to expect. He’s an offensive fire punch and a defensive liability. He’s a 6 2” 190 lbs guard that offers zero versatility on defense. Given that we seem to switch everything on defense, what do you expect when a team inevitably target him on a switch?

Again if Ariza is that horrible, how come a smart coach like Spoelstra played him for 29 mins/game. Is Eric a much smarter tactician who knew exactly how to maximize his strength and mask his weaknesses?
Or Did he get carried by Superstars in Miami?
Vogel is not a bad coach, some of the current players are not bad either IMO. For me, it's like this team is been infected by a lazy virus that makes them dumb at the same time.
A healthy Nunn would be utilized well with other good focussed teams.
Ariza can play 12 decent minutes. Even if you trade for Jerami Grant, this team still loses with the lack of energy and focus they are showing.

[Ball so hard]

Again if Ariza is that horrible, how come a smart coach like Spoelstra played him for 29 mins/game. Is Eric a much smarter tactician who knew exactly how to maximize his strength and mask his weaknesses?
Or Did he get carried by Superstars in Miami?
Vogel is not a bad coach, some of the current players are not bad either IMO. For me, it's like this team is been infected by a lazy virus that makes them dumb at the same time.
A healthy Nunn would be utilized well with other good focussed teams.
Ariza can play 12 decent minutes. Even if you trade for Jerami Grant, this team still loses with the lack of energy and focus they are showing.

Really don't know what kind of argument is that... flip it around you have, "he played 29 minutes under a smart coach he must've been really good or contributed tremendously." I posted stats that show he's been on a steady decline the past three years. You're a stat guy. Why don't you post something to back up your argument instead of conveniently using your bogus Spoelstra argument. No one would argue that Ariza can play 12 decent minutes. It's the notion that he can contribute significantly that's laughable.

Smush Parker went from being a starter under Phil to basically being out of the league one year later... there are countless similar examples.

[Landsberger]

THT (still with age and potential)

You all said the same thing with Kuzma ... THT is worse then Kuzma (currently) and Kuzma had to keep changing his role every year with the Lakers and now look at him:) ...

I'm not going through the same pains with THT in hoping he'd grow into what we all expect him to, we should have kept Caruso and paid him and let THT go

Kuz was drafter at 22 years old. THT just turned in year 3...
Kuz also won a championship as a key piece with us and is tearing it up on a team with a better record than we have... what the hell do you think your trading THT for?

Read on Twitter

OK... this made me go look at Kuzma's year.... he's had got a very good 15 game run going. 21 and 11 with some assists, blocks and good overall shooting. The 3 hasn't been great but looking at his game log he was shooting the 3 well earlier in the year but when he went from about 12 shots a game with over half from 3 to 18 shots a game with only 3-4 from 3 his scoring took off. Again, he's a player that gets fixated on the 3. When he can attack he's much better overall.

I must admit... I had to search Kuzma because I forgot what team he went to.... For some reason I thought it was Orlando. I'm not watching nearly as much NBA as I used to and it's showing. I caught the second half of the Wiz game against the Sixers today. He, KCP, Harrell and Bryant all were key in that blow out.

It's good for him and the Lakers that he's not here. He was never going to get in a position to do what he's doing now here.

[Landsberger]

A couple things about Ariza. I'm not sure he was ever as good as Lakers fans have made him out to be....

Hey now....Ariza was really good his first go 'round. Was he fighting Kobe for 'best on the squad'?? Of course not. But he was a decent shooter, good slasher, moved well without the ball, and was one hell of a defender. Had a knack for stealing inbound passes, and was just one of those guys that your team needs to be deep and dominant. Iggy.....different player, and I'd say Iggy was prob a bit better in his prime...but that kind of guy. Did all the things that needed to be done.

Speaking of done....yes, he's done now. But he was great for us back when.

Looks like I smoked one out.

I didn't say he wasn't good did I? He filled a roll very well and was better than most thought he would be. In the years since he was here he has to be the most mentioned former Laker name by a good margin. Likable and hardworking... more so than Horry for that matter. I think MWP filled that role well too. Not as stable as Ariza but that was part of the mystique.