Lakers blame Pie, Fans divided but one is unscathed?

[thomas1897]

The Laker Nation desires better and the Management & players should provide more effort and respect to the game of basketball and the people who pay these athletes their salaries. The laker Nation has other options go to the cross town team called the Clippers. Stop this madness and enjoy the Clippers and our Super Bowl Champions. The players who do not want to be here should look forward to the end of the season. They should give The Laker Nation respect and play hard. The Laker Management needs to clean the house and rid themselves of any diseased and sick players immediately. Review and analysis of the 2022 season can this team make the playoffs, next how far can they go? When the season is over which way will the Lakers go 1. Complete rebuild 2. Continue with AD & Lebron and add free agents and trades 3.Continue with the nucleus AD, Lebron, Carmelo Nunn, Monik and some young players ?

[SlimShady83]

[Beethoven]

The Laker Nation desires better and the Management & players should provide more effort and respect to the game of basketball and the people who pay these athletes their salaries. The laker Nation has other options go to the cross town team called the Clippers. Stop this madness and enjoy the Clippers and our Super Bowl Champions. The players who do not want to be here should look forward to the end of the season. They should give The Laker Nation respect and play hard. The Laker Management needs to clean the house and rid themselves of any diseased and sick players immediately. Review and analysis of the 2022 season can this team make the playoffs, next how far can they go? When the season is over which way will the Lakers go 1. Complete rebuild 2. Continue with AD & Lebron and add free agents and trades 3.Continue with the nucleus AD, Lebron, Carmelo Nunn, Monik and some young players ?

I dont know about "diseased and sick players to rid" on the Lakers, but I do know perhaps this forum should rid of diseased and sick posters like you? Is your mind in some sort of a syntax loop?

[thomas1897]

The first half of this season is complete. Now what there is a lot of chatter but what can the Laker Nation expect. Can anyone tell me. Will it be more of the same up and down or less. Any answers what is the best solution to fix the problems or wait until next season, the draft and free agent signings over the summer. Let me know. The Laker Nation so far has nothing to be proud of except $125,000,000 million on salaries for three stars that are productive about 40 percent of the time. So keep paying for low productive and poor performance. This is not the Lakers I know.

[Kilroy]

This thread is essentially the same as the other 2 threads you started and is being discussed in multiple other threads as well... I think I'll merge this one with the other you still have open. -Kilroy

[tamaraw08]

Fans are divided on who to blame.
1.Lebron James: Not a few are blaming Lebron and AD for really PRESSURING Pelinka to trade for Westbrook.

2. Rob Pelinka: Others are blaming Pelinka for caving in and catering to Lebron's wishes... well he's the GM, he should have put his foot down and stick his neck and say "NO WAY I am giving assets to get a player who is clearly a bad fit for this team"

3. Frank Vogel: Then the coaching issue, Vogel's questionable rotations, kept playing bad players like D'Andre Jordan, they are shooting badly from 3 and yet his best shooter who shoots 39% from 3 is being benched bec Frank hates his defense etc etc etc.
But the one person who is escaping any blame here is Jeannie Buss who refused to spend more money for form the best team possible starting with not paying Caruso.
Ramona Shellburne also revealed that Rob wanted to replace their veteran assistant coach Lionel Hollins who retired with ANOTHER veteran coach Scottie Brooks, but the former Wizards HC declined when the Lakers offered LESS THAN HALF of what Portland was offering. They ended up hiring a shooting coach(NEVER HAD assistant coaching experience) to assist Vogel on the bench supposedly help out with drawing key strategies etc.
Then during the trade deadlline, Dave McMenamin shared that Houston was offering not just Wall but also Christian Wood for Russ and fillers but Lakers said no BECAUSE THEY DONT' WANT TO absorb more contracts.

[Kilroy]

When a team like this, with this high a payroll and relative talent on paper, fails this spectacularly, nobody goes unscathed...

LeBron saying he wants to retire a Laker is a direct result of he and Klutch waking up to the reality he could get traded out of town if he doesn't make nice, which could dent the hell out of his legacy.

Frank's been on the hot seat since last season.

Rob may keep his job a little longer but no way he gets a pass on this either...

They're all going down in one way or another. The mustards off the hot dog on that one...

[TylersLakers]

1) Jeanie Buss and ownership (40%):

- They set the budget every season. It was very clear the Lakers had a budget and they weren't willing to go over it. Cost them Caruso.
- They've set up the leadership (Jeanie, Rob, Rambii, Klutch)

2) Rob Pelinka (25%)

- He had the power to say no to LeBron and AD with the trade for Russ and go with a different approach which would have been: Trade Kuzma and Harrell for Buddy Hield, re-sign Caruso, re-sign Schroder on a 1 year deal (all of this reported by Brian Windhorst). They also would've had KCP and a 1st round pick. Add in Carmelo, Monk, Howard, and Jeff Green on the tax-payers MLE and you have a roster of:

Caruso/Schroder
KCP/Monk/Cam Thomas
Hield/Jeff Green
LeBron/Melo
Davis/Howard

- He had the power and he didn't do it. Instead, he went the Klutch route. Re-sign THT, sign Nunn, do what AD and LeBron (Klutch) wanted and trade for Russ.

3) LeBron James/AD (20%):

Their decision to get in bed with Russ and push for the trade to happen is 10%. The remaining 10% is injury and when they were healthy, lethargic play. Because if LeBron and AD were each healthy and each only missed 10-15 games (reasonable), we'd still be comfortably in a Top 6 seed. I bet we'd be in the Utah/Dallas/Denver grouping.

4) Frank Vogel, Coaching Staff (15%)

The coaching has been flat out bad. Like, really, really, really bad. That's it. The amount of "good" concepts we run offensively is a joke. The defensive scheme and Frank wanting to use drop coverage when Melo or LeBron is at the 5 is incompetence. He should be switching EVERYTHING. DeAndre Jordan getting ANY minutes at the start of the season when we actually had a healthy LeBron and AD was comical in the moment. Playing Avery Bradley the way he has.. that's been comical. I also hated his approach in pre-season with LeBron/Russ/AD. The three of them played in how many games together? 1? For a brand new group, those guys should be playing a lot together - even if it's just 14-18 minutes in a first half and letting the reserves finish the game. But he set a terrible precedent to begin the season and that to me is one of the biggest reasons for the lethargic play.

He's been dealt a very bad hand especially factoring in the way he wants to play. But boy oh boy - he hasn't helped himself one bit.

[euphorbus]

When a team like this, with this high a payroll and relative talent on paper, fails this spectacularly, nobody goes unscathed...

When the team went 0-6 in preseason and LeBron laughed it off, that was arrogant as hell. Still, I thought they would start to come together in December. Right now, the players are so discouraged, they have stopped trying, and that is a terrible indictment of everyone from the front office to the end of the bench. They looked so bad last night, I had to stop watching. It's supposed to be a beautiful game, not an ugly maelstrom.

[Landsberger]

1) Jeanie Buss and ownership (40%):

- They set the budget every season. It was very clear the Lakers had a budget and they weren't willing to go over it. Cost them Caruso.
- They've set up the leadership (Jeanie, Rob, Rambii, Klutch)

2) Rob Pelinka (25%)

- He had the power to say no to LeBron and AD with the trade for Russ and go with a different approach which would have been: Trade Kuzma and Harrell for Buddy Hield, re-sign Caruso, re-sign Schroder on a 1 year deal (all of this reported by Brian Windhorst). They also would've had KCP and a 1st round pick. Add in Carmelo, Monk, Howard, and Jeff Green on the tax-payers MLE and you have a roster of:

Caruso/Schroder
KCP/Monk/Cam Thomas
Hield/Jeff Green
LeBron/Melo
Davis/Howard

- He had the power and he didn't do it. Instead, he went the Klutch route. Re-sign THT, sign Nunn, do what AD and LeBron (Klutch) wanted and trade for Russ.

3) LeBron James/AD (20%):

The reason why I have them at 35% and higher than Rob Pelinka is because of injury. Their decision to get in bed with Russ and push for the trade to happen is 10%. The remaining 10% is injury and when they were healthy, lethargic play. Because if LeBron and AD were each healthy and each only missed 10-15 games (reasonable), we'd still be comfortably in a Top 6 seed. I bet we'd be in the Utah/Dallas/Denver grouping.

4) Frank Vogel, Coaching Staff (15%)

The coaching has been flat out bad. Like, really, really, really bad. That's it. The amount of "good" concepts we run offensively is a joke. The defensive scheme and Frank wanting to use drop coverage when Melo or LeBron is at the 5 is incompetence. He should be switching EVERYTHING. DeAndre Jordan getting ANY minutes at the start of the season when we actually had a healthy LeBron and AD was comical in the moment. Playing Avery Bradley the way he has.. that's been comical. I also hated his approach in pre-season with LeBron/Russ/AD. The three of them played in how many games together? 1? For a brand new group, those guys should be playing a lot together - even if it's just 14-18 minutes in a first half and letting the reserves finish the game. But he set a terrible precedent to begin the season and that to me is one of the biggest reasons for the lethargic play.

He's been dealt a very bad hand especially factoring in the way he wants to play. But boy oh boy - he hasn't helped himself one bit.

60% Davis Bron
40% Buss family.

No way the others (Pelinka and Vogel) go along if the stars aren't aligned with the owner.....

I won't let them off the hook entirely however they had no say IMHO other than leaving in all likelihood.

.... if ownership didn't enable this then things are worse than we think.....

[zimpy27]

lakers just picked up DJ Augustin.

I'm willing to put 90% of the blame pie on Pelinka for not understanding that the team was good because of defense.

- Lakers were good because of Defense under Vogel
- LeBron and Davis has always had best impact stats with defensive guards like Caruso/KCP/Reaves
- Westbrook has never been a good defender but he does work best with young defensive Cs with limited offense, he enables their offense so they can stay on floor.

These 3 simple rules led to FO deciding on going for shooters and old Cs with limited defensive capabilities.

The gamble on Westbrook is far less troubling than the complete misunderstanding of the role players that work best with the core.

Lakers just dtraded Jordan for Augustin.. I mean, Lakers lacked size and defense and now this.. It's insanity.

[Kilroy]

That's the thing though... Pelinka's been around enough to know what this team was and wasn't... Hell... it was in all the papers, on all the sports talk shows, etc... We were a Defense-first team, lead by AD, Caruso, KCP and Howard, but supplemented by pretty much everyone...
Pelinka knew...
But when LeBron tells you he wants to play on your team, there's tremendous pressure to make it happen... And keep him happy... So even if Rob knew getting Westbrook was a bad idea (I think he absolutely did), if you have both your franchise players in your office saying get him... And one of those players is LeBron, who brings Klutch and all their clients with him... You have little choice other than to try to make your phone go dead during the call...

Personally, I think everyone trying to blame Vogel and Pelinka for this are ignoring the massive problem... If you get in bed with LeBron, you really have no choice but to make what he wants happen.

Poor Vogel hasn't had a consistent roster from one season to the next since he's been here... We get pissed at him tinkering with the lineups, but what else can he do... LeBron and AD clearly don't take training camp that seriously...

Rob didn't get LeBron here... That was Magic... So, was it his fault for dicking around with Magic and pissing him off like a mean girl? Sure, but that done, what else could he have done along the way? If Pat Riley found it difficult dealing with LeBron and his team, what can Rob Pelinka do, but say Yes and make sure the number work on the deals he wants...

Could the FO and ROb have told LeBron No... Technically, yes... In reality was that ever going to happen? Of course not...

This season was a testament to the inherent problem with the 'LeBron System' in the NBA... Arrogance, apathy, lack of focus, and laziness produce rosters like this... And that started with the Westbrook trade LeBron and AD pushed for.

All that said... Am I anticipating LeBron catching the lion's share of the blame for all this? Of course not... It may tarnish him a bit, but he'll shrug it off... Vogel may not make it through the season even though it's not his fault... Magic is going to start appearing more and more, which will be a direct shot at the job Rob did, but I doubt they actually fire him... I think LA is going to be calling for his and Vogel's heads, along with Westbrook and to a lesser extent LeBron.

[SlimShady83]

1) Bron no doubt has the final say in who comes especially on Westbrook - that's on him, escape plan if things don't turn out, but no doubt he also had a say and probably final say in Melo and other aging stars as well.

2) Can't say too much, he had a lot on his plate

3) Vogels rotations isn't the only problem, his only offensive scheme is - Give Bron the ball and have other 4 players stand on one side, OR a **** pick an role that leads no where half the time

Everyone but Monk and Reaves needs to go in the offseason

[danfantastk32]

60% Davis Bron
40% Buss family.

No way the others (Pelinka and Vogel) go along if the stars aren't aligned with the owner.....

I won't let them off the hook entirely however they had no say IMHO other than leaving in all likelihood.

.... if ownership didn't enable this then things are worse than we think.....

I'm definitely more with this, although, I'll do;
50% Bron
20% Davis
10% Westbrook
10% Owner
8% Pelinka
2% Vogel.

How the hell does Vogel get much blame for any of this? You really think he's got the power to walk into Jeanie's office, and tell her there's no way in hell we're signing Westbrook?? Give me a break. He shoulda sat Westbrooks sorry ass from game 1, but he woulda been fired that night. So give it a rest on blaming the coach. Oh....he shoulda played this guy 4 minutes more. That guy shoulda got more time.....enough. This team is complete crap. Has been from day 1. God couldn't have instilled defense into Westbrook and Melo. Could the worlds greatest coach squeezed 4-5 more wins outa this team? Big maybe. There's your 2%

Pelinka had a different, much better deal in the works. But as Lands just said.....You got Lebron and Davis FIRED UP to sign Westbrook, prob has Jeanie all excited....your really gonna put the kabosh on that? Good luck. And ANYTHING but back to back titles will be on YOU.

This tub of crap is on Lebron and Davis....with Westbrook. Jeanie coulda said no....and it is her team. So she gets a little blame. But this is a players league, and you have 2 of the top players going out and selecting THEIR GUY. The three of them met, and lied to themselves that this would all work great. Frankly, Lebron shoulda known better. Basketball genius eh? I don't know that I hold AD in very high regard when it comes to basketball IQ. I certainly don't for Russ. But Lebron?? I kinda expected better. This was an awful pairing from plain sight.

Much like when Kobe tried to lie to himself that he could play with Nash, and let Nash dominate the ball....did Lebron really think that the ball was in 'better hands' with Russ?? It's a sign that I held Lebron in much higher regard that I give him the lion's share of the blame. This is his team. AD is brittler, fairly better (especially at D) version of Gasol. Isn't his team....won't ever be. Lebron pulls the strings, and typically it's worked out. But this was just dumb.

[danfantastk32]

All that said... Am I anticipating LeBron catching the lion's share of the blame for all this? Of course not... It may tarnish him a bit, but he'll shrug it off... Vogel may not make it through the season even though it's not his fault... Magic is going to start appearing more and more, which will be a direct shot at the job Rob did, but I doubt they actually fire him... I think LA is going to be calling for his and Vogel's heads, along with Westbrook and to a lesser extent LeBron.

I am curious to see what happens. I see Vogel get way way way too much blame. Tossing the coach seems to be genetically bred into sports fans. But at the same time....I think it's pretty universal out there that the lion's share of blame is on Lebron. Everyone knows that Lebron and Davis met with Westbrook out on the East coast (wherever they met). It wasn't Pelinka. It's been noted that Pelinka had other plans in the works.

Are people annoyed that Jeanie went along? Sure. Do people think Vogel coulda squeezed more outa this squad? Sure. Do people think Pelinka shoulda/coulda got a bit more youth...signed some defensive guys? Sure. Laker nation as a whole have some irritations with almost everyone.....but they all know who "made this happen". Who wanted this. As well.....almost everyone looking in from the outside knows who's fingerprints are all over this.

So I really don't think Jeanie needs to fire anyone to appease the angry crowds. The blame is correctly focused...for the most part. But like I said....genetics. I bet Vogel gets canned. It's stupid as F in my opinion, but I bet it happens.

[Ball so hard]

60% Davis Bron
40% Buss family.

No way the others (Pelinka and Vogel) go along if the stars aren't aligned with the owner.....

I won't let them off the hook entirely however they had no say IMHO other than leaving in all likelihood.

.... if ownership didn't enable this then things are worse than we think.....

I'm definitely more with this, although, I'll do;
50% Bron
20% Davis
10% Westbrook
10% Owner
8% Pelinka
2% Vogel.

How the hell does Vogel get much blame for any of this? You really think he's got the power to walk into Jeanie's office, and tell her there's no way in hell we're signing Westbrook?? Give me a break. He shoulda sat Westbrooks sorry ass from game 1, but he woulda been fired that night. So give it a rest on blaming the coach. Oh....he shoulda played this guy 4 minutes more. That guy shoulda got more time.....enough. This team is complete crap. Has been from day 1. God couldn't have instilled defense into Westbrook and Melo. Could the worlds greatest coach squeezed 4-5 more wins outa this team? Big maybe. There's your 2%

Pelinka had a different, much better deal in the works. But as Lands just said.....You got Lebron and Davis FIRED UP to sign Westbrook, prob has Jeanie all excited....your really gonna put the kabosh on that? Good luck. And ANYTHING but back to back titles will be on YOU.

This tub of crap is on Lebron and Davis....with Westbrook. Jeanie coulda said no....and it is her team. So she gets a little blame. But this is a players league, and you have 2 of the top players going out and selecting THEIR GUY. The three of them met, and lied to themselves that this would all work great. Frankly, Lebron shoulda known better. Basketball genius eh? I don't know that I hold AD in very high regard when it comes to basketball IQ. I certainly don't for Russ. But Lebron?? I kinda expected better. This was an awful pairing from plain sight.

Much like when Kobe tried to lie to himself that he could play with Nash, and let Nash dominate the ball....did Lebron really think that the ball was in 'better hands' with Russ?? It's a sign that I held Lebron in much higher regard that I give him the lion's share of the blame. This is his team. AD is brittler, fairly better (especially at D) version of Gasol. Isn't his team....won't ever be. Lebron pulls the strings, and typically it's worked out. But this was just dumb.

Broadly agree. I'd only tweak the allocation slightly to 80% LJ, AD, and Pelinka. They share equally in my book.

[tamaraw08]

The majority of replies again is a testament that fans are divided between blaming Lebron and Pelinka and Vogel gets a pass.
Yes more are blaming James... then Rob but my main point is how Jeannie is getting very little culpability here.
IF THE REPORTS shared by McMeNamin, Shellburne etc are TRUE, Then the Lakers majority owner was the REASON why this team doesn't have Alex Caruso (very good defense, shot 40% from 3 and a crazy net positive with Lebron), Christian Wood (averaging 18/10rebs) and the Veteran Scotty Brooks, assisting Vogel instead of the inexperienced Mike Penberthy.
Am I saying the Lakers would have been contenders with these 3? I don't know, but I really think they would have helped .

[TylersLakers]

The majority of replies again is a testament that fans are divided between blaming Lebron and Pelinka and Vogel gets a pass.
Yes more are blaming James... then Rob but my main point is how Jeannie is getting very little culpability here.
IF THE REPORTS shared by McMeNamin, Shellburne etc are TRUE, Then the Lakers majority owner was the REASON why this team doesn't have Alex Caruso (very good defense, shot 40% from 3 and a crazy net positive with Lebron), Christian Wood (averaging 18/10rebs) and the Veteran Scotty Brooks, assisting Vogel instead of the inexperienced Mike Penberthy.
Am I saying the Lakers would have been contenders with these 3? I don't know, but I really think they would have helped .

Facts.

Everything starts with Jeanie Buss, Kurt Rambis, Linda Rambis and the rest of ownership. However, I exclude Jesse and Joey Buss who seem to be the only ones with a basketball brain in the organization.

The rest of it is debatable between LeBron/AD, Pelinka, Vogel, health, etc.

There are so many variations of this team that could've been good. Even if you accept the trade for Russ, there's avenues where they could have made better decisions with vet minimums, trades, etc. However with Russ, there's certainly less avenues. But all of that is based on the Buss family and how much they've budgeted basketball operations. From there, it's up to basketball operations to make the right moves and they failed in just about every sense. That's where Pelinka/Rambis get the criticism.

[tamaraw08]

The majority of replies again is a testament that fans are divided between blaming Lebron and Pelinka and Vogel gets a pass.
Yes more are blaming James... then Rob but my main point is how Jeannie is getting very little culpability here.
IF THE REPORTS shared by McMeNamin, Shellburne etc are TRUE, Then the Lakers majority owner was the REASON why this team doesn't have Alex Caruso (very good defense, shot 40% from 3 and a crazy net positive with Lebron), Christian Wood (averaging 18/10rebs) and the Veteran Scotty Brooks, assisting Vogel instead of the inexperienced Mike Penberthy.
Am I saying the Lakers would have been contenders with these 3? I don't know, but I really think they would have helped .

Facts.

Everything starts with Jeanie Buss, Kurt Rambis, Linda Rambis and the rest of ownership. However, I exclude Jesse and Joey Buss who seem to be the only ones with a basketball brain in the organization.

The rest of it is debatable between LeBron/AD, Pelinka, Vogel, health, etc.

There are so many variations of this team that could've been good. Even if you accept the trade for Russ, there's avenues where they could have made better decisions with vet minimums, trades, etc. However with Russ, there's certainly less avenues. But all of that is based on the Buss family and how much they've budgeted basketball operations. From there, it's up to basketball operations to make the right moves and they failed in just about every sense. That's where Pelinka/Rambis get the criticism.

It's been a consensus that the Buss family has limited resources as compared to other owners like Ballmer, GSW, Knicks, Nets etc.
There was a report I read that even if they matched Caruso's offer and pay that luxury tax, that they still not be the highest paid team, actually just 3rd but Jeannie said "nope, we're on a budget". We're letting a guy with high IQ, very good defender and shot 40% from 3 go eventhough we lost very good defenders like KCP AND Kuzma.
We're also not going to pay an experienced HC to help Vogel EVEN THOUGH we're NO LONGER PAYING EXPENSIVE assistants Kidd and Hollins anymore.
And even if everybody including her is AWARE that AD is brittle and injury prone, she will NOT be absorbing the contract of Christian Wood, a 6-10 player who is shooting 37% from 3 and averaging 18pts/10 rebs/game because 13.6 Million is too much(just 2 years left) . assuming those reports were true.
Now my question is how much if Jeannie paying herself? How much is she paying Linda and Kurt Rambis? No complaints about the Buss brothers who are doing a great job

[Slava]

I hope the rumor regarding Omar Wilkes is true. I know nothing about him or his basketball philosophy but Rich Paul doesn’t hire clowns to be head of his basketball operations department.