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Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:00 pm
by Anderson Hunt
Vanderbilt is an elite defender and a great rebounder. There is no debating this. I also think he's an underrated passer.
Vanderbilt brings a great deal of intangibles in the way energy, effort, and spirit that makes him a winning player in my book.
That being said, is he overrated by Laker faithful? Is he a guy who is able to play 25 minutes a game, or is he guy who'll play closer to 15 minutes?
The average Laker fan sees Vanderbilt as a staple and core piece, but is he?
For one, as we all know, his shooting is non-existent. He's a non-factor outside of the paint.
Him not being able to shoot is fine in a vacuum, but on this team, is he a fit next to Davis? In a league/era where you need four shooters on the floor, how can Davis and Vanderbilt share the floor for more than 5-10 minutes a game? It's a big deal, and his lack of outside shooting will, in my opinion, affect his ability to get significant role-playing minutes. Without the shooting, he functions more as a backup to Davis.
As a 15 minute per game guy, it seems to me that he's easily replaceable.
I don't have Reddish in my hypothetical lineup, but isn't Reddish a more than capable replacement for Vanderbilt?
For what they both bring, elite defense, Reddish makes one-quarter of Vanderbilt's salary, and I wonder if he's worth it on a team teetering on the second apron. I wonder if our collective perception of Vanderbilt is inflated based on his elite specialty and likeable intangibles.
I must also note that he has an injury history dating back to high school that has bore out in his short tenure in the purple and gold. He misses a lot of games.
Is Vanderbilt over-valued? Is he quite dispensable?
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:13 pm
by TyCobb
He is too fragile.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 5:01 pm
by danfantastk32
Anderson Hunt wrote:Vanderbilt is an elite defender and a great rebounder. There is no debating this.
Yep...with those words, I'd say he's overrated.
Elite defender?? ELITE?? Like he's top-5 defender in the league....a league that prob doesn't even have an elite defender in it currently. I'd call AD a really good defender. You might even convince me he's a great defender. Elite? Nah...that word gets tossed around like dinner mints these days. This league doesn't have an elite defender currently. At least not one that I've seen. And if there is one, it sure as hell ain't Vanderbuilt.
The guy is a nice pickup. He puts effort into his defense. Something I appreciate. In a league so heavily swayed towards offense, just a little pride and effort in your defense puts you in the "good" category....and that's about all you can ask for these days. But anyone who thinks of Vanderbuilt as anything but a decent pickup, and a nice bench piece is overrating him. And since this next season will be his 7th in the NBA....don't hold your breath for some great growth. He does seem to have a knack for rebounding. I'll give him that. Like I said....I think he was a really nice pickup.
Nobody on our team is "elite" at anything....sorry.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 12:26 am
by TylersLakers
I think he’s underrated. I don’t think he’s talked about enough and I think he’s thrown into trade discussions too easily.
Before he got hurt against the Celtics, he was playing the best ball of his career and that was with his coach yanking him around for a month straight. Give him a legit 24-28 minutes a game and playing a lot of his minutes with LeBron, D-Lo and he’ll be more than fine.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:47 am
by SlimShady83
Wish we could have two Vando's really defense over offense anyday
This team has enough offense but not enough defense.
Wish Vando could learn the 3ball
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 12:02 pm
by DanishLakerFan
danfantastk32 wrote:Anderson Hunt wrote:Vanderbilt is an elite defender and a great rebounder. There is no debating this.
Yep...with those words, I'd say he's overrated.
Elite defender?? ELITE?? Like he's top-5 defender in the league....a league that prob doesn't even have an elite defender in it currently. I'd call AD a really good defender. You might even convince me he's a great defender. Elite? Nah...that word gets tossed around like dinner mints these days. This league doesn't have an elite defender currently. At least not one that I've seen. And if there is one, it sure as hell ain't Vanderbuilt.
The guy is a nice pickup. He puts effort into his defense. Something I appreciate. In a league so heavily swayed towards offense, just a little pride and effort in your defense puts you in the "good" category....and that's about all you can ask for these days. But anyone who thinks of Vanderbuilt as anything but a decent pickup, and a nice bench piece is overrating him. And since this next season will be his 7th in the NBA....don't hold your breath for some great growth. He does seem to have a knack for rebounding. I'll give him that. Like I said....I think he was a really nice pickup.
Nobody on our team is "elite" at anything....sorry.
This is the most pessimistic take I've read in a while.
In what **** world isn't AD an elite defender. Lebron an elite passer/scorer/leader. D'Lo an elite shooter. Vando an elite defender. And Darwin Ham an elite **** idiot.
As for Vando being overrated. Sure. I guess. In a way..He's as bad offensively as D'Lo is on defense, but doesn't get the same amount of hatred. Decent deal though. Put him with 4 shooters and you're good.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 12:05 pm
by stan francisco
Vando is not at all overrated. His one on one defense is indeed elite. Championship level defense is elite. He’s on a level of Artest, Ariza (champions).
Glassman, yes. If healthy in the playoffs he’s a total difference maker. Not a starter for 82 games due to durability. If we had him healthy against Denver 2022-2023, we could’ve beat them because he would make life hell for Murphy.
Hoping he stays healthy this season, improves his three ball.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 12:07 pm
by stan francisco
DanishLakerFan wrote:In what **** world isn't AD an elite defender. Lebron an elite passer/scorer/leader. D'Lo an elite shooter. Vando an elite defender. And Darwin Ham an elite **** idiot.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:13 pm
by Anderson Hunt
TylersLakers wrote:I think he’s underrated. I don’t think he’s talked about enough and I think he’s thrown into trade discussions too easily.
Before he got hurt against the Celtics, he was playing the best ball of his career and that was with his coach yanking him around for a month straight. Give him a legit 24-28 minutes a game and playing a lot of his minutes with LeBron, D-Lo and he’ll be more than fine.
I really, really like Vanderbilt as a player. So much so that I'd risk his future injuries to benefit from what he brings. He's Dennis Rodman and Aaron Gordon-esque.
The only problem is that Dennis Rodman played when you only needed two shooters on the floor and Aaron Gordon has made himself into a proper shooter.
Vanderbilt, before even factoring in his injuries, is a liability if he's not on the floor with four shooters, and Anthony Davis isn't a shooter. The traditional backup center they sign won't be a shooter either, so his fit is wonky at best.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:15 pm
by Godfather13
danfantastk32 wrote:Elite defender?? ELITE?? Like he's top-5 defender in the league....a league that prob doesn't even have an elite defender in it currently. I'd call AD a really good defender. You might even convince me he's a great defender. Elite? Nah...that word gets tossed around like dinner mints these days. This league doesn't have an elite defender currently. At least not one that I've seen. And if there is one, it sure as hell ain't Vanderbuilt.
This is a laughable take..
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:22 pm
by loveshaq007
trade him for Caruso straight up
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:25 pm
by Godfather13
Anderson Hunt wrote:Vanderbilt is an elite defender and a great rebounder. There is no debating this. I also think he's an underrated passer.
Vanderbilt brings a great deal of intangibles in the way energy, effort, and spirit that makes him a winning player in my book.
That being said, is he overrated by Laker faithful? Is he a guy who is able to play 25 minutes a game, or is he guy who'll play closer to 15 minutes?
The average Laker fan sees Vanderbilt as a staple and core piece, but is he?
For one, as we all know, his shooting is non-existent. He's a non-factor outside of the paint.
Him not being able to shoot is fine in a vacuum, but on this team, is he a fit next to Davis? In a league/era where you need four shooters on the floor, how can Davis and Vanderbilt share the floor for more than 5-10 minutes a game? It's a big deal, and his lack of outside shooting will, in my opinion, affect his ability to get significant role-playing minutes. Without the shooting, he functions more as a backup to Davis.
As a 15 minute per game guy, it seems to me that he's easily replaceable.
I don't have Reddish in my hypothetical lineup, but isn't Reddish a more than capable replacement for Vanderbilt?
For what they both bring, elite defense, Reddish makes one-quarter of Vanderbilt's salary, and I wonder if he's worth it on a team teetering on the second apron. I wonder if our collective perception of Vanderbilt is inflated based on his elite specialty and likeable intangibles.
I must also note that he has an injury history dating back to high school that has bore out in his short tenure in the purple and gold. He misses a lot of games.
Is Vanderbilt over-valued? Is he quite dispensable?
I've stated my case against Vando several times. Agree with most of what you've said and I don't believe he's elite at defense either.
He's a specialist perimeter point of attack defender, with not enough size to switch onto the stronger forwards. And he has two massive holes in his game at the perimeter -
- Inability/lack of IQ to navigate screens for PnR PGs - spent 1.5x more time switched on to Dray/Loon or Joker/Gordon than he spent on Jamal/Steph
- Slow lateral speed to keep up with the faster PGs like Ja/Fox, who can just drive past him whenever they choose like the rest of the league
If he had a 38% 3 point shot at a 6-8 3FGA volume, he'd be a max or at least 25-30 mil player. Right now, unfortunately, he's a B on defense and a hard F on offense, in a league that's heavily tilted towards favoring offense.
If our center was a good shooter like Joker or KAT, maybe. But with AD, there's no room for Vando in the playoffs.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:28 pm
by Godfather13
DanishLakerFan wrote:danfantastk32 wrote:Anderson Hunt wrote:Vanderbilt is an elite defender and a great rebounder. There is no debating this.
Yep...with those words, I'd say he's overrated.
Elite defender?? ELITE?? Like he's top-5 defender in the league....a league that prob doesn't even have an elite defender in it currently. I'd call AD a really good defender. You might even convince me he's a great defender. Elite? Nah...that word gets tossed around like dinner mints these days. This league doesn't have an elite defender currently. At least not one that I've seen. And if there is one, it sure as hell ain't Vanderbuilt.
The guy is a nice pickup. He puts effort into his defense. Something I appreciate. In a league so heavily swayed towards offense, just a little pride and effort in your defense puts you in the "good" category....and that's about all you can ask for these days. But anyone who thinks of Vanderbuilt as anything but a decent pickup, and a nice bench piece is overrating him. And since this next season will be his 7th in the NBA....don't hold your breath for some great growth. He does seem to have a knack for rebounding. I'll give him that. Like I said....I think he was a really nice pickup.
Nobody on our team is "elite" at anything....sorry.
This is the most pessimistic take I've read in a while.
In what **** world isn't AD an elite defender. Lebron an elite passer/scorer/leader. D'Lo an elite shooter. Vando an elite defender. And Darwin Ham an elite **** idiot.
As for Vando being overrated. Sure. I guess. In a way..He's as bad offensively as D'Lo is on defense, but doesn't get the same amount of hatred. Decent deal though. Put him with 4 shooters and you're good.
I'll tell you what's elite.. the drugs in danfantastk32's system rn.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:35 pm
by Anderson Hunt
DanishLakerFan wrote:danfantastk32 wrote:Anderson Hunt wrote:Vanderbilt is an elite defender and a great rebounder. There is no debating this.
Yep...with those words, I'd say he's overrated.
Elite defender?? ELITE?? Like he's top-5 defender in the league....a league that prob doesn't even have an elite defender in it currently. I'd call AD a really good defender. You might even convince me he's a great defender. Elite? Nah...that word gets tossed around like dinner mints these days. This league doesn't have an elite defender currently. At least not one that I've seen. And if there is one, it sure as hell ain't Vanderbuilt.
The guy is a nice pickup. He puts effort into his defense. Something I appreciate. In a league so heavily swayed towards offense, just a little pride and effort in your defense puts you in the "good" category....and that's about all you can ask for these days. But anyone who thinks of Vanderbuilt as anything but a decent pickup, and a nice bench piece is overrating him. And since this next season will be his 7th in the NBA....don't hold your breath for some great growth. He does seem to have a knack for rebounding. I'll give him that. Like I said....I think he was a really nice pickup.
Nobody on our team is "elite" at anything....sorry.
This is the most pessimistic take I've read in a while.
In what **** world isn't AD an elite defender. Lebron an elite passer/scorer/leader. D'Lo an elite shooter. Vando an elite defender. And Darwin Ham an elite **** idiot.
As for Vando being overrated. Sure. I guess. In a way..He's as bad offensively as D'Lo is on defense, but doesn't get the same amount of hatred. Decent deal though.
Put him with 4 shooters and you're good.
How do you surround him with four shooters on this team?
If this team is constructed properly, Anthony Davis and his backup should be the worst shooters on the floor at all times, not Vanderbilt.
It's a problem.
Can he improve? Of course. Learning to shoot is probably the easiest skill to pickup, but it's actually more than shooting.
The Lakers need to cut payroll. For all their talk of "depth", it's their so-called depth that has them hugging the apron line. Guys like Vanderbilt, elite wing defenders who can't shoot, have been around on minimum deals for ages. They have another one in the team already (Reddish). Like David Nwaba, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, and Stanley Johnson before him, Vanderbilt's archetype is replaceable for much cheaper.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:40 pm
by Godfather13
stan francisco wrote:Vando is not at all overrated. His one on one defense is indeed elite. Championship level defense is elite. He’s on a level of Artest, Ariza (champions).
Glassman, yes. If healthy in the playoffs he’s a total difference maker. Not a starter for 82 games due to durability. If we had him healthy against Denver 2022-2023, we could’ve beat them because he would make life hell for Murphy.
Hoping he stays healthy this season, improves his three ball.
Data points to the opposite. Think he's only a regular season innings eater because teams don't bother to game plan for single players as much then.
He gets exposed offensively in the playoffs which has resulted in his minutes decreasing with every game in every series he's played. Teams park a second big off him in the paint permanently, which takes out 70% of Bron/AD's scoring playmaking opportunities out of the post.
And defensively -
Memphis -
Ja against Vando - 55 fg% - 42 3fg%
Ja against everyone else - 42 fg% - 31 3fg%
GS/Denver -
He spent more time being switched on to Dray/Loon or Joker/Gordon than he did on Steph/Jamal
I think there's a huge disparity on Vando's vibes/energy/feel good and the actual player he is out there among Laker fans and management.
Matisse Thybulle, whose actually an alien in basketball shoes on the defensive side{What Lakers faithful think Vando is}, was caste aside by an organization that actually has winning ambitions, because of his offensive limitations. Offense is just far more important than defense in this league.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:43 pm
by danfantastk32
Godfather13 wrote:danfantastk32 wrote:Elite defender?? ELITE?? Like he's top-5 defender in the league....a league that prob doesn't even have an elite defender in it currently. I'd call AD a really good defender. You might even convince me he's a great defender. Elite? Nah...that word gets tossed around like dinner mints these days. This league doesn't have an elite defender currently. At least not one that I've seen. And if there is one, it sure as hell ain't Vanderbuilt.
This is a laughable take..
Glad you got something out of it. No pictures even....good for you.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:50 pm
by danfantastk32
DanishLakerFan wrote:This is the most pessimistic take I've read in a while.
Well this team has little to be optimistic about right now...sorry. 7th - 11th - 7th -8th place finishes in the West point to a middle of the road team treading water, and hanging on to an old star.
DanishLakerFan wrote:In what **** world isn't AD an elite defender.
In a world with Garnett, Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, Pippen, B-Wallace.
DanishLakerFan wrote: D'Lo an elite shooter.
Maybe you aughta go look up elite. I think the word doesn't mean what you think it means.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:57 pm
by Anderson Hunt
Godfather13 wrote:stan francisco wrote:Vando is not at all overrated. His one on one defense is indeed elite. Championship level defense is elite. He’s on a level of Artest, Ariza (champions).
Glassman, yes. If healthy in the playoffs he’s a total difference maker. Not a starter for 82 games due to durability. If we had him healthy against Denver 2022-2023, we could’ve beat them because he would make life hell for Murphy.
Hoping he stays healthy this season, improves his three ball.
Data points to the opposite. Think he's only a regular season innings eater because teams don't bother to game plan for single players as much then.
He gets exposed offensively in the playoffs which has resulted in his minutes decreasing with every game in every series he's played. Teams park a second big off him in the paint permanently, which takes out 70% of Bron/AD's scoring playmaking opportunities out of the post.
And defensively -
Memphis -
Ja against Vando - 55 fg% - 42 3fg%
Ja against everyone else - 42 fg% - 31 3fg%
GS/Denver -
He spent more time being switched on to Dray/Loon or Joker/Gordon than he did on Steph/Jamal
I think there's a huge disparity on Vando's vibes/energy/feel good and the actual player he is out there among Laker fans and management.
Matisse Thybulle, whose actually an alien in basketball shoes on the defensive side{What Lakers faithful think Vando is}, was caste aside by an organization that actually has winning ambitions, because of his offensive limitations. Offense is just far more important than defense in this league.
That part.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:07 pm
by danfantastk32
loveshaq007 wrote:trade him for Caruso straight up
Would if I could. Shocked that he makes more than Caruso. And we wouldn't even match that low offer for Caruso, who's a much more rounded player, IMO. The front office never ceases to disappoint.
Doubt OKC will want to make the trade....even if Vanderbuilt is indeed an elite defender, like some people think.
Re: Is Vanderbilt Overrated?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:17 pm
by danfantastk32
Anderson Hunt wrote:Godfather13 wrote: I think there's a huge disparity on Vando's vibes/energy/feel good and the actual player he is out there among Laker fans and management.
Matisse Thybulle, whose actually an alien in basketball shoes on the defensive side{What Lakers faithful think Vando is}, was caste aside by an organization that actually has winning ambitions, because of his offensive limitations. Offense is just far more important than defense in this league.
That part.
Yeah....I love how he says I'm on drugs....and then repeats several of the points I made.