Kobe VS Lebron at age 23

[Dexmor]

Alot of people compare Lebron to Kobe and right now Kobe is clearly better imo. My question is when Lebron is 29 will he be better then Kobe is now? The best way to answer that is who was better at 23?
Kobe's problem at 23 I would say is he was to selfish but I believe that could have been because he was so good but was playing with a guy who kept telling him he wasn't the best. Lebron didn't have that so maybe that is why although that is optimistic.
Lebron's weakness if I had to pick which is hard is he doesn't have the killer instinct that Kobe has always had. I know Lebron as a rookie and 2nd year was way better then Kobe as a rookie and second year but Kobe was younger and didn't get the same pt and he didn't have that body but Kobe worked so hard that didn't last long.
So who do you guys think was better at 23 (that is Lebron now) and who do you think will be better when it is all said and done.

Alot of factors to take into effect is Shaq, being able to be the first option compared to having to be second option and many other things.
I am 27 so of course I remember 6 years ago well and Kobe at 23 but anybody a couple years older then me will probably remember better then me and know who is better.

[That Nicka]

LeBron puts up better numbers at the same age.. but he is a first option compared to Kobe playing with one of the best players of all time... plus they play different positions...

[LLcoleJ]

This is subjective but lets look at the numbers...

Playoffs @ age 23 :

Kobe 27/6/5 playing behind Shaq ( champion)

LBJ 30/9/7 being the only option

[-G-]

29/7/6 in the playoffs, 1st team All-Defense, Lakers go 15-1 in the playoffs. 48/16, 45/10 and dismantling the Spurs.

Oh, I guess he was still 3 months shy of his 23rd birthday for the playoffs that year. Well, he did that at 22. So ya.

[LLcoleJ]

^^ I just watched the Lakers 3 peat on ESPN like 20 minutes ago. Great memories and alot of Kobe's games and contributions were/are overlooked. Even when he tore apart the Spurs, amongst other feats.

[Tommy Trojan]

This is subjective but lets look at the numbers...

Playoffs @ age 23 :

Kobe 27/6/5 playing behind Shaq ( champion)

LBJ 30/9/7 being the only option

Could it be said that Shaq to a lot of the pressure of Kobe? Hence, made the game easier for Kobe?

[BossPlaya]

When Kobe was drafted... he didnt automatically become the teams go to guy.When Lebron was drafted, he became the guy that the organization looked to. Plus Kobe is 13-7 in the NBA Finals. Lebron is 0-4. Championships speak a million. Kobe 3... Lebron 0. Nough said.

[Deuce33]

-= original quote snipped =-




Could it be said that Shaq to a lot of the pressure of Kobe? Hence, made the game easier for Kobe?

No, I've always believed that it was 50/50, Kobe was ALWAYS our closer and distributor, he set everybody up and closed the game for us, plus defended the teams best perimeter players. I even remember one analyst questioning that if Shaq wasn't there, would Kobe be putting up the same numbers that he is, but people don't understand that it's harder to put up big time numbers that Kobe did with someone of Shaq's status. I would even go as far as saying Kobe was the MVP of our team and shaq was our best player. He did all of the lil things that go unnoticed for us to win, plus carrying us while shaq would go on his inseason vacations. There was just alot of stuff he did, that he doesn't get credit for.

[Deuce33]

When Kobe was drafted... he didnt automatically become the teams go to guy.When Lebron was drafted, he became the guy that the organization looked to. Plus Kobe is 13-7 in the NBA Finals. Lebron is 0-4. Championships speak a million. Kobe 3... Lebron 0. Nough said.

And see that's another thing, What would Kobe's numbers have been like if he was immediately the first option when he came into the league like Lebron? I don't know if he would have won any rings, but I know his numbers would been better, and he would have matured alot faster as well with the burden of carrying a team all on his shoulders.

[DowJones]

At age 23 Kobe Bryant averaged more shots per game than LeBron James, yet LeBron averaged more points. I don't buy it for a second that he would have had better stats because he took more shots WITH Shaq. So Kobe had his cake and ate it too. Not only did he have Shaq to deflect attention from him, he also got a chance to shoot plenty of shots.

I think the big thing to look at is the situation that each player was brought into. I know Laker fans won't want to hear this, but I don't think Kobe Bryant could have done anything with Cleveland. Kobe is built as an athlete to be a front-runner. He needs to be on a good team in order to really play good basketball. I don't think he can carry a bad team without having a poor attitude, going into his shell, and ignoring everyone around him. If he was on that Cleveland team, and he had to watch Carlos Boozer flat out being lost, I think he would have certainly demanded a trade and he would have just been a huge pain in the ass for the franchise.

Kobe demanded a trade before he ever got to the NBA. Remember that he wanted out of Charlotte and he wanted to play for LA asap. He also demanded a trade when he saw that LA didn't have much talent around him, but remember that he ONLY wanted to be traded to an elite team. Now, of course, he wants to be a "Laker forever".

That is what I am talking about. I don't think Kobe has that ability to lead an average team....he is built for being the best player on a great team. He isn't built for leading an average team the way LeBron is.

[kobeaki]

At age 23 Kobe Bryant averaged more shots per game than LeBron James, yet LeBron averaged more points. I don't buy it for a second that he would have had better stats because he took more shots WITH Shaq. So Kobe had his cake and ate it too. Not only did he have Shaq to deflect attention from him, he also got a chance to shoot plenty of shots.

I think the big thing to look at is the situation that each player was brought into. I know Laker fans won't want to hear this, but I don't think Kobe Bryant could have done anything with Cleveland. Kobe is built as an athlete to be a front-runner. He needs to be on a good team in order to really play good basketball. I don't think he can carry a bad team without having a poor attitude, going into his shell, and ignoring everyone around him. If he was on that Cleveland team, and he had to watch Carlos Boozer flat out being lost, I think he would have certainly demanded a trade and he would have just been a huge pain in the ass for the franchise.

Kobe demanded a trade before he ever got to the NBA. Remember that he wanted out of Charlotte and he wanted to play for LA asap. He also demanded a trade when he saw that LA didn't have much talent around him, but remember that he ONLY wanted to be traded to an elite team. Now, of course, he wants to be a "Laker forever".

That is what I am talking about. I don't think Kobe has that ability to lead an average team....he is built for being the best player on a great team. He isn't built for leading an average team the way LeBron is.

the highlighted is a flawed "fantasy" proposal though, you may say could be true, but had kobe gone to charlotte as a bright eyed and bushy-tailed teenager, who knows how his disposition would be different...

and had lebron started with a storied franchise such as the lakers and been a part of the intoxicating potion that is winning and domination who knows what kind of diva he would be now...

so you see, your theory is only legit in a vaccum, for as much as one personality is set, also what you experiance also makes who you are...

also lebron isnt really doing anything by himself, and sideshow varajo to step up huge, larry hughes has to play, yada yada...

we are in a unique posistion where we have jordan/kobe and magic/lebron....all four of which have and had to have very good role players if not outright superstars to win. larry legend wouldve been reggie miller without dennis johnson, or danny ainge , isiah thomas without bill lambeer is who again? bill russell without cousy? you get my drift....

the point is everything IS relative, and while it is fun to speculate on an individual's performance, it really is not an accurate picture if not including the impact of the personnel around them...

would big papi be as good without manny hitting before him(or is it after?)

you get the point...

if wilt was a celtic,instead of russell, would their accomplishments be the same?

context, context context...

[Dexmor]

I think playing with another superstar does make the game easier for you but I don't believe it helps you put up better numbers when your a volume shooter. Example Melo and AI both average around 25 26 points because they play with each other. If they didn't have each other they would get 30 a game each.

The real difference is Lebron could carry a crappy team to the playoffs and in a fluke year the finals and Kobe probably wouldn't have been able to do that at 23 like Lebron did because Lebron is more unselfish and in that aspect Lebron has a better attitude. You can argue Kobe has the better attitude now because know Kobe could do that and he has the killer instinct.
The thing that I didn't think of and a really good point to argue Kobe was better at 23 is the defense. Kobe was all nba defensive first team and Lebron has that potential and even DPOY potential he hasn't hit it. Maybe if he had Shaq he would have been able to deticate more to the defensive end but we will never know.
Lebron never demanded a trade because he was being drafted by his hometown team. If the Sixers were to have drafted Kobe he might not have been traded and if he started out as a guy who was asked to carry a team he might have been o.k. with it. He wasn't o.k. with it this year yes that is true but only because he was lied to and found out the Lakers passed on many star players. Lebron is probably going to bolt and go to the Knicks or the Nets anyway.
Plus all that early success made Kobe's need to win that much stronger. He also has what MJ had and that was not being able to stand when his teammates sucked and maybe that is not such a bad thing. Maybe that is part of the killer instinct.
Kobe probably couldn't have done what Lebron did but could Lebron do what Kobe did and close out games? Also I don't hold it against Kobe that he had so many problems with Shaq because Kobe is waking up at 5 am and working his ass off and Shaq doesn't even work out.

In a couple years I think Lebron's offense will be greatly improved which makes it like Kobe and Jordan which is basically flawless.

Things Kobe is better at
Defense, Work Ethic, Competitve edge, Killer instinct and my guess is he will always be a better shooter and 3 point shooter. Believe it or not but Kobe imo can fit into any offense better then Lebron for example Kidd probably wouldn't have played as well with Lebron because he is the playmaker and so is Kidd but Kobe and Kidd played like they have been doing it forever. Kobe has the ability to change his body like no other man I have seen except Sly and be a fast, thin sg like a Kevin Martin but obviously much better or he could pump himself up and be like a power shooting guard and just dominate the post all day.

Things Lebron is better at
Being a teammate even though Kobe has been perfect at it Lebron just makes his teammates better. Playmaking and passing. More versitle, Lebron can play fulltime at 4 positions, he has the handles speed and passing to play the pg and with his body and at 6'8 he really could be a pf if he wanted and obviously he could be a 2 and he is a 3. He has 3 inches and about 40 pounds on him. He is 6'8 and he is 260 (listed at 240 but he said himself he is 260 now).

Overall I think Kobe at 23 has the slight edge. There are a ton of variables but the bottom line is Kobe was a first team all nba player. They were so close on the offensive side but the defensive end tops it for me. Also the things that Lebron is better at like passing and making people better Kobe is really good at those things. Lets face it Kobe has the skills to be a pg if he wanted to and he did make Shaq better even though Shaq bitched.

[Chubby Chaser]

I'm over all these Kobe and Lebron comparisons. Lebron can't even be mentioned anywhere near kobe's name until he at leasts wins two rings. Until then this subject is a moot point.

[milesfides]

I don't think one could assume anything would come naturally due to age. Kobe was always a pretty good shooter - even during his early years. His free throw shooting and three-point shooting didn't improve much at all since he was a rookie.

Lebron, in his fifth year in the league, his shooting hasn't become any better, in fact, his three-point shooting and free throw shooting has become slightly WORSE.

When comparing numbers as starters, Lebron gets roughly 1 more rebound and about 1.5 more assists than Kobe. No doubt that makes Lebron superior to Kobe in Hollinger's eyes. Is Lebron a slightly better rebounder and passer than Kobe? Yes, I think so. Does that make him a better player? Not necessarily.

There's nothing Kobe can't do offensively. He's the complete package. On the other hand, Lebron could be a liability on the line, and considering his three-point percentage, he should probably stop taking so many threes.

And of course, Kobe is a far better defender. That's half of this game called basketball.

One thing's for sure, Kobe has everything set to have a long career. He's already judicious with his athleticism - still got it, but doesn't flaunt it. Saves it until he needs to do it. Otherwise, his game is maturing gracefully. He can play like this for 10 more years - why not?

However, Lebron relies on a power game. My guess why he's not working on his shooting? Probably because his driving game is so effective. But when his freight train drives start to fail him, when his body begins to decline in a few years, he might be grasping for under-developed skills.

A 6'8", 250 guy, playing in 80+ games a year, relying on explosiveness, getting knocked down...I don't know. Can he still do that at 30 years old? The mind is willing, but the knees, always the knees, are weak.

[Dexmor]

MILES PLEASE ANSWER and explain it to me. There are some questions at the end of this message.


Miles your completely right. I was always kind of scared Lebron would surpass Kobe one day on the inside but you made me realize in this post I was wrong. Another thing is Kobe is a better rebounder then Lebron imo even though Lebron gets more rebounds Kobe gets the rebound in the clutch. In the clutch he is one of the best rebounders of alltime.


Now Answer this question Miles and everybody else who was better at age 23 Kobe or Jordan. Then answer me what is the order of who is best at age 23 and why.

My answer is Kobe
Jordan had better stats but no other teammates to take any shots and back in the day when the scores were 130-120. Kobe could have done that also. He probably could have had an 82 point game back in those days. Also the defense was not as smart as they are now even though you were aloud to hand check the defensive schemes are way more advanced now. Kobe was a better rebounder and passer because he has the same stats in that department and the scores were higher so it was easier back then. Jordan was a fierce defender like Kobe. Also Kobe was a better shooter back then.

I have a hard time figuring out who was better a 23 year old Jordan or a 23 year old Lebron.

Miles enlighten me. I think there are alot of smart people here but Miles you are clearly the brightest of us all. Phil is a smart guy but I haven't learned as much from any other poster then I do from Miles. If I am confused or I have it wrong Miles explains the game and players to me like he is the message board Hubie Brown.

[Gerald3Wallace]

i dont know

i think lebron was better now then when kobe was at 23....maybe its cause kobe wasant the 1st option..if kobe was the first option i would probably see this a lil different..

but at the end of the day...kobe >bron

jordan > both

[DowJones]

Kobe is better than Bron at FT shooting, mid-range shooting, man to man defense, and consistency overall at the defensive end.

LeBron is better than Kobe at Taking it to the hoop, finishing at the bucket, rebounding, passing, getting blocks and steals.

They are both equal at scoring, and even 3-point shooting. Their career 3-point shooting percentages are almost exactly the same.

I also think LeBron's game would be so much better under a coach like Phil Jackson. I think the fact that Kobe has played under Phil for almost his entire career has really, really helped him out. Can you imagine Kobe playing under a coach as bad as Mike Brown?

[kobeaki]

Kobe is better than Bron at FT shooting, mid-range shooting, man to man defense, and consistency overall at the defensive end.

LeBron is better than Kobe at Taking it to the hoop, finishing at the bucket, rebounding, passing, getting blocks and steals.

They are both equal at scoring, and even 3-point shooting. Their career 3-point shooting percentages are almost exactly the same.

I also think LeBron's game would be so much better under a coach like Phil Jackson. I think the fact that Kobe has played under Phil for almost his entire career has really, really helped him out. Can you imagine Kobe playing under a coach as bad as Mike Brown?

i would generally agree with that, except say between 97 and 2002 kobe was pretty damn solid around the basket as well....hhmmmmmm.

[O.C Brandon]

I don't think one could assume anything would come naturally due to age. Kobe was always a pretty good shooter - even during his early years. His free throw shooting and three-point shooting didn't improve much at all since he was a rookie.

Lebron, in his fifth year in the league, his shooting hasn't become any better, in fact, his three-point shooting and free throw shooting has become slightly WORSE.

When comparing numbers as starters, Lebron gets roughly 1 more rebound and about 1.5 more assists than Kobe. No doubt that makes Lebron superior to Kobe in Hollinger's eyes. Is Lebron a slightly better rebounder and passer than Kobe? Yes, I think so. Does that make him a better player? Not necessarily.

There's nothing Kobe can't do offensively. He's the complete package. On the other hand, Lebron could be a liability on the line, and considering his three-point percentage, he should probably stop taking so many threes.

And of course, Kobe is a far better defender. That's half of this game called basketball.

One thing's for sure, Kobe has everything set to have a long career. He's already judicious with his athleticism - still got it, but doesn't flaunt it. Saves it until he needs to do it. Otherwise, his game is maturing gracefully. He can play like this for 10 more years - why not?

However, Lebron relies on a power game. My guess why he's not working on his shooting? Probably because his driving game is so effective. But when his freight train drives start to fail him, when his body begins to decline in a few years, he might be grasping for under-developed skills.

A 6'8", 250 guy, playing in 80+ games a year, relying on explosiveness, getting knocked down...I don't know. Can he still do that at 30 years old? The mind is willing, but the knees, always the knees, are weak.

absurd

[Dexmor]

It's not absurd it makes absolute sence.