Kobe VS Lebron at age 23

[backtothebball]

My point is this:

If you flew back in time and picked up Bjorn Borg, brought him back to present time and had him face Serena Williams at Wimbledon, who would win? Serena would probably win in three straight sets; 6-0, 6-0, 6-0. The next generation greats is always better than the previous one, in large part due to the accomplishments of their predecessors.

The point being, only a few greats in the history of the game can be fairly compared head to head

[backtothebball]

My point is this:

If you flew back in time and picked up Bjorn Borg, brought him back to present time and had him face Serena Williams at Wimbledon, who would win? Serena would probably win in three straight sets; 6-0, 6-0, 6-0. The next generation greats is always better than the previous one, in large part due to the accomplishments of their predecessors.

The point being, only a few greats in the history of the game can be fairly compared head to head

[backtothebball]

serena ended 1998 ranked 20, venus ended 1998 ranked 5. the guy was smoking and had been drinking too. I think tennis is actually a good comparison between eras. I mean look at Agassi doing well in the 80s yet still dominating in 2006. Magic Johnson is easily a top 5 player today, just as kobe would be a top 5 player in the eighties. Thee thing that separates kobe from lebron for me, in todays game, fouls are called more readily when the game in on the line, and kobe is a much better free throw shooter, even when he was 23. Lebron his more athletic, but kobe's game was more polished. I think Lebron can carry a team better than Kobe could then, but those Laker championship teams would have less success with Lebron I believe.

[Slava]

serena ended 1998 ranked 20, venus ended 1998 ranked 5. the guy was smoking and had been drinking too. I think tennis is actually a good comparison between eras. I mean look at Agassi doing well in the 80s yet still dominating in 2006. Magic Johnson is easily a top 5 player today, just as kobe would be a top 5 player in the eighties. Thee thing that separates kobe from lebron for me, in todays game, fouls are called more readily when the game in on the line, and kobe is a much better free throw shooter, even when he was 23. Lebron his more athletic, but kobe's game was more polished. I think Lebron can carry a team better than Kobe could then, but those Laker championship teams would have less success with Lebron I believe.

Actually basketball is probably the only sport where players cannot be compared between eras. Someone like Kobe Bryant or MJ would have been scary good back when opposition teams didn't have video tapes to analyze their moves. Also the level of atgleticism that is in the sport today is amazing compared to back when almost 30 % of the players would never dunk.

Same could be said about tennis too, the players of today are tremendously built, especially in the upper body where it is most needed in long games. Someone like Lleyton Hewitt, though not as skilled as most others could have been awesome just because of his quickness and stamina back in the 80s.

[LLcoleJ]

You have just maybe made the most idiotic statement I've read on this board, which says a lot.

Does that mean you have been here for a long time? Had a different user name ?

[Sedale Threatt]

Lebron at 23 ( today) doesnt look so good.

True, he's having an absolutely miserable series, but when I watch these games I'm not thinking about how bad he's playing as much as how bad his teammates are. The Celtics are basically disrespecting everyone else on the court and ganging up on him, and it's working to perfection.

On one hand, that's nothing Jordan didn't see early in his career, or Kobe didn't see over the last three seasons, and both of them managed to put up monster numbers. On the other, just about anyone would struggle for stretches trying to beat the No. 1 defense single-handed, and LeBron is no different.

I almost feel bad for him having to play with stiffs like Wally Szerbiak and Ben Wallace. A complete waste of supreme talent.

Regarding the question at hand, I'd have to lean towards taking LeBron at 23, simply because of his immense physical package. Right now, it's easy to pick Kobe, the far more polished and versatile offensive player and more consistent defender. He's put an immense amount of work into his game, and it shows.

But IF LeBron develops a respectable jump shot, and IF he makes the nightly commitment to play defense like he's capable of, and IF he proves to be a cutthroat competitor like Kobe (which is probably LeBron's biggest weakness, in my opinion), damn...imagine what you'd have to deal with.

I've been watching the NBA for more than 20 years, and the resulting player that comes to mind is like nothing I've ever seen. Not even close.

[Erik Eleven]

You have just maybe made the most idiotic statement I've read on this board, which says a lot.

backtotheball,

By missing my point, you're proving it. Sorry you fell in the trap. I was merely trying to prove that you cannot compare players from different eras head-to-head and you just helped me out. My point is once again that you can only compare their dominance versus their respective peers, but you cannot get into a "who would win a head-to-head matchup in their prime, Serena or Borg?" argument. Why? Because it's idiotic speculation and thus a total waste of time.

I'm probably the biggest Borg fan on these boards. I grew up watching him and Ingemar Stenmark (two of our biggest national heroes of the 70s and early 80s) back in Sweden and I followed his career closely from 1975 until he retired. If he were active today, he would most likely be the best player in the world, assuming that he'd put his small wood framed racket on the shelf. But, therein lies my point; he isn't in his prime today, and the game today has better equipment, technology, higher speed, medical advancements have been made etc. The game is altogether different, much in part due to Borg taking it to a new level, just like he would have if he were active today. The man had a resting heartbeat rate of 30 bpm for pete's sake. He could outrun, outwork and outsmart and flat outplay anyone anyone today, no doubt. But, there is no way that he could adjust to all of what the game is today, during the course of one game. There is just no way.

In my "idiotic" hypothetical time-machine scenario, just the new equipment alone would give today's players an enormous advantage if they faced Borg with his small wooden racket.

It's a fact

[B-Scott]

The Celtics are the 1# defensive team in the NBA and Lebron is basically out there by himself. Im not surprised at how bad he is playing.

Kobe was in a similair situation the last 2 years, but look who we played in the 1st round. Phoenix doesnt play any defense, so Kobe is got his numbers. Plus Lamar and Luke are better then anything Lebron has over there right now. That is the worse offensive talented team i have ever seen in the playoffs.

They got James Posey guardng Lebron and Garnett and Pau Pierce cheating off there man to basically triple him and the Celtics are quick with there rotations when he tries to kick out to Gibson for the 3.

[Thugmelo]

The Celtics are the 1# defensive team in the NBA and Lebron is basically out there by himself. Im not surprised at how bad he is playing.

Kobe was in a similair situation the last 2 years, but look who we played in the 1st round. Phoenix doesnt play any defense, so Kobe is got his numbers. Plus Lamar and Luke are better then anything Lebron has over there right now. That is the worse offensive talented team i have ever seen in the playoffs.

They got James Posey guardng Lebron and Garnett and Pau Pierce cheating off there man to basically triple him and the Celtics are quick with there rotations when he tries to kick out to Gibson for the 3.

He is missing lay ups and missing rythm jumpers. He can't hit a jumper to save his life, infact in his last 4 playoff series he is shooting 22% that isn't a lay up. His skill set is being exposed in front of the world.


Secondly, Luke last season was walking on crutches essentially. It was Kobe/Lamar vs the Suns. Kobe and Lamar isn't going to beat any team in the League.

Hey, b-scott. Look at the effeciency of Ilgauskus vs Bron during the playoffs. You always claim that Lebron knows when his teammates are hot and he is cold. Well your theory has been debunked, Lebron is shooting 40% in the playoffs as compared to Ilgauskus's 54%. Yet Lebron is taking 8 more shots during this post season than Lebron.

Meanwhile that Kobe guy is doing a terrific job balancing his game. I think it exposes your complete bias of the issue, that the main problem was the actual legit talent on the team that screwed Kobe's game up. Kobe has done much better this season especially in the playoffs.

[B-Scott]

Lamar Odom as a 2nd option is 10 times better then Ilgauskus who looks like he's playing on 1 leg.

The positives that Ilgauskas does early in games gets taken away easy. Just stay on his Mid-Range jumper and he's done. He's old and slow.

Luke and Lamar the past 2 seasons at least can create for others. Who on the Cavs can create a open shot for others besides Lebron?

[B-Scott]

I agree Kobe has done much better this season and i had him as my MVP. But lets be realistic here. The Lakers are waaaaaaaaay more talented then the Cavs. It's not even close.

The Cavs struggle to score 80 points and dont put that on Lebron. Its lack of offensive talent. The trade made them worse.

[milesfides]

-= original quote snipped =-

True, he's having an absolutely miserable series, but when I watch these games I'm not thinking about how bad he's playing as much as how bad his teammates are. The Celtics are basically disrespecting everyone else on the court and ganging up on him, and it's working to perfection.

I'm not so sure. I thought in Game One, the Cavs were in the game DESPITE Lebron's struggles. They all played pretty decent defense. Ilguaskas has played very well both games as well. The Celtics are much better than them, however, so I don't expect the Cavs to do well against them. But I do think Lebron is struggling mightily, particularly due to his lack of a consistent outside shot.

On one hand, that's nothing Jordan didn't see early in his career, or Kobe didn't see over the last three seasons, and both of them managed to put up monster numbers. On the other, just about anyone would struggle for stretches trying to beat the No. 1 defense single-handed, and LeBron is no different.

The difference though is that despite their teams struggling, Kobe and Jordan succeeded individually. Lebron is struggling individually, even worse than his entire team - I think he's shooting 19% through two games and averaging 8 or 9 turnovers.

Kobe and Jordan have always been able to "get their own." On the other hand, Lebron, when faced with an elite defense like the Celtics, and the Spurs last year, hasn't even been able to get his own individual numbers. To me, it's obvious why - he's not on Kobe or Jordan's level in terms of scoring ability. Kobe and Jordan are the best scorers in the game, they have virtually no defect in their game. That's what made them so incredibly difficult to guard.

On the other hand, teams are taking away Lebron's drive, and forcing him to shoot.

That's what the Pistons did last year (Lebron had 5 poor shooting games, 2 games when he got hot), the Spurs (Lebron shot in the low 30s that series), and now the Celtics.

I almost feel bad for him having to play with stiffs like Wally Szerbiak and Ben Wallace. A complete waste of supreme talent.

True, but if we're going to compare Lebron's situation to Kobe's for the past 2-3 years...I'm sure Kobe would rather have Wally and Ben Wallace than Smush Parker and Kwame Brown.

Regarding the question at hand, I'd have to lean towards taking LeBron at 23, simply because of his immense physical package. Right now, it's easy to pick Kobe, the far more polished and versatile offensive player and more consistent defender. He's put an immense amount of work into his game, and it shows.

But IF LeBron develops a respectable jump shot, and IF he makes the nightly commitment to play defense like he's capable of, and IF he proves to be a cutthroat competitor like Kobe (which is probably LeBron's biggest weakness, in my opinion), damn...imagine what you'd have to deal with.

Those are a lot of IFs, IFs that separate the greatest from the great.

Defense is half the ball game...which is a major defect in Lebron's game, his willingness to play defense consistently at a high level. I think he's capable of it, but he has yet to really commit to it. And few superstars do.

Regarding the jumper, I've argued this before, but I don't think it's as easy to develop an outside shot.

Some tend to point to Jordan and the development of his shooting ability. But there's some problems with that. First, he's Jordan. Just because Jordan could do it doesn't mean Lebron could do it. Second, Jordan's outside shot was a little underrated early in his career, probably because his game became much more perimeter oriented later in his career, and also because his three point shooting was poor early in his career. But three-point shooting wasn't really part of his game, he took very few threes until later - and as his attempts went up, so did his percentage.

Don't get me wrong, I think Lebron is bound for the Hall of Fame. His athleticism is unprecedented in the history of the game. But that's part of his problem - is he relying too much on his athleticism? And at the end of 5 seasons, is it a foregone conclusion that he's going to develop a jumper, killer instinct, defensive excellence?

I don't think so. On the other hand, Kobe did show all of that - by his 3rd or 4th year in the league, when he was 21, 22 years old. Some would say earlier - since he was held back from the starting lineup. I think what Kobe gained was experienced, maturity, how to get to the foul line, pacing himself, knowing the game. But his skills, talents, all of that was fundamentally there from the beginning.

On the other hand, Lebron would have to adopt major additions to his game.

I think because Laker fans are so familiar with Kobe, and the Jordan comparisons, we tend to forget how rare the combination of all those abilities and characteristics really are.

[B-Scott]

Lets keep in mind Kobe has never faced a defensive caliber team of the Celtics with the lack of talent that Lebron has.

2006 - Phoenix

2007 - Phoenix

2008 - We have Gasol and Lamar to help him out


The Suns play no defense and even if Lamar and Gasol were not Lakers, Kobe would still get his stats against the Jazz. Didnt T-Mac drop 40 on Utah? He did that without any type of a 2nd option.

If Kobe had James Posey guarding him 1 on 1 with Garnett cheating off Ben Wallace and Paul Pierce cheating to help, Kobe wouldnt shoot to well either.

Kobe shot 38% in the 2004 NBA Finals and that was with Shaq. Now take Shaq off that team. He probably has a similair series as Lebron.

[Sedale Threatt]

Regarding the current series, I'm just trying to lend some perspective as someone who not only has immense admiration for James but also, having watched Kobe swim upstream for the last three seasons, sympathy for his having to play with a mediocre supporting cast.

Who should know better than us how unfair it is to cast all the blame on one player when he's working with so many disadvantages? Kobe and Jordan found ways to surmount that and still play well, but let's not forget that James has as well. He's put up historic individual numbers, and he's carried his team through numerous playoff victories.

No doubt he's played like stir-fried garbage against the Celtics. I just think a wee bit of perspective is necessary. It's only been two games, and road games, against an exceedingly tough defensive unit that has locked all of its attention on him, at that.

As for the young James vs. young Bryant debate...

There's no question that as great athletically as Kobe and Jordan were/are, what put them over the top and made them truly special were intangible qualities like work ethic, desire, competitiveness, tenacity, etc., etc. Unfortunately, both were/are so flashy and spectacular that it tends to overshadow the blue-collar approach both took in terms of punching the clock and putting in work every single day.

And I couldn't agree more: Those are qualities are extremely rare, and not to be taken for granted. Not many people -- not just players, but people -- could experience the type of success they have yet still maintain a burning desire to compete and improve. Lord knows I don't have it; 99.9 percent of us don't.

I can't even begin to predict if LeBron has that kind of hunger, and is willing to put in the work players like Kobe and Jordan and Bird and Magic did to squeeze every last drop out of their ability. Out of respect to those players and the work they put in, I'll acknowledge that it's probably unlikely.

My only point was that should he indeed make the requisite commitment to be great, you're going to be looking at a player the likes of which basketball has never seen. It's going to take countless hours, and at least as many sacrifices, to get there. But as a fan of the game, I'd like to see him get there, if only to marvel at the results.

[milesfides]

ST, Fair points, but I'd like to add that I don't intend to focus just on Lebron's struggles in just these two games. That would indeed be a skewed perspective, based on a negligible sample size, especially considering the same ridiculous criticism of Kobe by some posters, e.g., "remember that one game when Kobe shot..."

That's not what I intend to do. But it falls into a larger pattern. Against great defensive teams, Lebron struggles mightily in one way - his outside shot. Now, Kobe's struggled at times too, no doubt. Jordan has as well. Everybody does, everybody has a bad game or two.

But overall, Kobe's outside shooting is top notch. Also, I can't recall Kobe EVER struggling that much through two games. In the playoffs, especially.

Considering that Lebron's jumper has always been shaky, that he hasn't shown improvement at all, and that good defensive teams have been able to take away that strong right drive of his, and make him struggle, mightily, and consistently, I would consider this a major, major flaw in Lebron's game. It's an inherent weakness.

And to his credit, Lebron can get hot. I expect Lebron will eventually get hot at least one out of the next two games. While Lebron's jumper is inconsistent, he can get into a rhythm. He did two out of the 7 games against Detroit last year.

Still, that's a major flaw to his game, and considering this is his fifth full season as THE MAN, averaging at least 19 shots a game, and yet with little improvement in the weaknesses of his game, I'm just wondering whether he will.

Jason Kidd is one of the greatest point guards of all time and his shot never improved in his career. Has anybody ever shot more free throws than Shaq? But he never improved.

The thing about Lebron is that his shooting across the board isn't very good. He's not a good three-point shooter either, nor is he a good free throw shooter. He's just not a good shooter. There has to be some fundamental change in his shooting mechanics or something. I don't know.

But when you look at Kobe and Jordan, they came into the league shooting well. Their free throw percentages were already close to career averages. Once they started taking more threes, they started shooting them at a high percentage. These guys were good shooters the moment they entered the NBA.

Even if Lebron doesn't improve, he'll still probably make the hall of fame. That's no failure.

Lebron is the most athletic, raw power and speed specimen to ever hit the court. And I don't think it's even close. Nobody his mass moves like him. Nobody.

I just don't think he's cut from the same cloth as Jordan and Kobe. Lebron lacks the complete offensive game, the desire and stamina to play consistent defense, the work ethic to eliminate any weakness, and by his own admission, the killer instinct. And these were attributes that Jordan and Kobe possessed the moment they entered the NBA.

If Lebron surpasses Kobe in terms of esteem around the league, if he's going to go down in NBA history as a better player than Kobe, he's going to have to do it some other, unique way. Jordan established what it meant to be a perfect player, and Kobe's been flirting with that, critics will say he's short of them, but nobody can deny he's the closest we've seen to approach the standards Jordan set.

Well, maybe except John Hollinger, who's making it his personal mission to campaign for Lebron as the next Jordan.

[Thugmelo]

Lamar Odom as a 2nd option is 10 times better then Ilgauskus who looks like he's playing on 1 leg.

The positives that Ilgauskas does early in games gets taken away easy. Just stay on his Mid-Range jumper and he's done. He's old and slow.

Luke and Lamar the past 2 seasons at least can create for others. Who on the Cavs can create a open shot for others besides Lebron?

Do you flip flop from month to month buddy? Weren't you the same guy saying that Luke can't create for others because he can't create off the dribble? Now all of a sudden when Kobe is involved, Luke can create? Hilarious to say the least.

Btw, i agree that Luke can create. I'm just calling your hypocrisy, of using arguments when it suits you then discarding them.

I'm also calling your for your statements that Bron knows when to stop shooting and to pass it to the guys who are more efficient. Clearly, he doesn't, he is taking 8 more shots than ilgauskus while shooting a whooping 14% less from the field. The point being is that when you don't have legit talent around you, the team lives and dies by you.

If Kobe had James Posey guarding him 1 on 1 with Garnett cheating off Ben Wallace and Paul Pierce cheating to help, Kobe wouldnt shoot to well either.

Kobe shot 38% in the 2004 NBA Finals and that was with Shaq. Now take Shaq off that team. He probably has a similair series as Lebron.

Kobe is not shooting 2-18 then 6-24. They are giving Lebron good looks, they are forcing him to take that jumpshot. Even with Kobe's streaky jumper, after a while he will start nailing those as he is a much better jumpshooter than Bron.

Lebron's skill set is being exposed. He is nothing but an athlete turned basketball player. When he loses his athleticism, it is over for him.

[Thugmelo]

I also find it disgraceful mr B-scott that you are up in arms to defend Lebron James but never with Kobe. Really, what kind of laker fan are you? Which laker fan stands up for the opposing superstar of a team that we may face in the finals while never backing up our guy?

Oh and BTW, this is melo061 if you're wondering.