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Point Guard Dilemma

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Who should finish games at PG

Fisher
14
48%
Farmar
5
17%
Lamar Odom
2
7%
Sasha Vujacic
6
21%
Another player via Trade
2
7%
 
Total votes: 29

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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#1 » by DubaLakers » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:13 am

This is a little off topic but If I was still in school I'd have Miles write all my papers, that dude just rolls out script like it's nothing.

As far as your poll Miles I assume you are referring to close games...If it's close I take Fisher (.04)first, Sasha second. I want icewater in there only.

You see old man Kidd taking it to Farmar last night getting steals, I honestly thought Kidd was done at the end of last season, he continues to amaze me. Farmar is solid on offense, but defensively he's still shows at times a tendency told his 'ole defender ways.

Lamar I don't trust on the outside in crunch time, he makes lazy passes at times.

I want Westbrook in the offseason. ;).
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#2 » by Dr Aki » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:28 am

and fish rebounds with a great shooting half against the hornets

hes not done yet
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#3 » by DubaLakers » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:34 am

Miles I think D Fish answered your questions this evening.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#4 » by Erik Eleven » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:05 am

Akiho wrote:
Erik Eleven wrote:Ariza makes good decisions with the ball whenever he initiates the offense. In one of the pre-season games he was playing point for a longer stretch, and I thought he did very well, actually. If the playoffs were today, I would like the following line-up to finish off games:

Ariza, Kobe, Radman/Odom, Gasol, Bynum

Ariza is quick enough for the quick point guards. He's also long enough to bother Deron Williams, Billups etc. That defense is no fun to face.


opposition defenses would collapse nonstop on odom and ariza when they try to slash and give up the long deuces

kobe, gasol and bynum wouldnt have any room to operate...


Wasn't late game defensive point guard the topic of this thread?

You win a tight seven game series with late game lock down defense. With such a line-up, it'll be extremely hard for the opponent to score and those guys can run the fast break just as well as anyone — if not better.

I'd go with Ariza or Fisher at point, depending on circumstances like match-ups and daily form. Same goes for the combo Radman/Odom/Gasol/Bynum.

In fact, late in the game tonight, Phil played a very similar line-up where a certain player was assigned to guard CP3. You guessed it — Trevor Ariza. I think the other four might have been Kobe, Radman, Lamar, Gasol.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#5 » by Erik Eleven » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:06 am

DubaLakers wrote:Miles I think D Fish answered your questions this evening.


Yes, and no. See post above.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#6 » by Erik Eleven » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:18 am

milesfides wrote:
crazyeights wrote:So Sasha is a better half-court passer merely because he's longer? I honestly cannot recall very many entry passes from him.


Well, that's because his role has changed since he joined the Lakers. For the past two years, he's been used as a catch-and-shoot 2/3. Yet he joined the Lakers as a point guard, a position he's played for years in Europe.

Height plays a major factor in entry passes, it's simple physics. A height advantage allows for better passing angles around defenders. Which is why guys like Ron Harper, Brian Shaw, Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc, Lamar Odom, all had significant ball-handling duties under Phil Jackson.

Farmar is a good passer in transition. But both he and Fish have trouble getting the quick entry pass into the post, which in my opinion, has been a big reason why Bynum and Gasol haven't been involved as much as they should have in these early games. Good ball movement should go north and south, penetrating or kicking out for high percentage shots.

This is why Kobe still has to come out beyond the 3-point line and play a major playmaking role.

This is also why Fish takes questionable pull up jumpers so frequently, because he doesn't have the passing lanes, nor does he have the quickness to beat his man off the dribble.

Imho, the reason why our starting lineup doesn't have as much fluidity, better ball movement, is precisely due to Fisher's inability to initiate the offense as a playmaker, as well as Radmanovic's quick trigger and poor passing.

I think our current offense is best with a two man game between Kobe at guard and Gasol in the high post. They are our two best playmakers in the halfcourt.

I like the sideline triangle on the strong side consisting of Vujacic at guard, Bynum in the post, and Ariza at the wing, especially since Ariza is hitting his outside shot and moves so well without the ball (baseline to baseline cuts). I agree with EE, I like how Ariza is moving the ball as well, it's quite surprising.

Imho, I think that's the most logical and strongest primary lineup, whether it's used to start and/or end games, that should be our workhorse lineup.

But Vujacic is a key substitution for Fish (Ariza for Radamn is a foregone conclusion).

As far as defending little guards go, I feel Vujacic has done well against them in the past. Especially getting under their skin. Secondly, I don't think our current guards do so well against them either, and I think Vujacic will come out ahead on either one of them. Lastly, our zones and our bigs will help discourage penetration. The small guards will get trapped and passing lanes will be denied. Vujacic just needs to harass them as usual, and that will be better than what Fish or Farmar can do.

And I disagree with the idea that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." We were rolling last season all the way until the Finals until we were exploited, most notably at point guard and small forward.

If we're playing for championships, there's no room for complacency, and we need to prepare and anticipate issues that might bite us in the ass down the line.

Let me tell you, Fisher taking pull up J's would play right into Boston's hands. Same with Radmanovic. We need to get Bynum and Gasol involved more, and it can't be just Kobe doing that, or else we'd see another repeat of a Kobe zone.

Everybody must try to play complete basketball, that's Lakers basketball, and both Radmanovic and Fisher have better replacements behind them.


Good post, miles.

For guarding small point guards late in games, Ariza is our man, in my opinion. Big point guards, too. Someone please tell me one superstar PG or SG guard that Ariza couldn't shut down with the game on the line. Iverson, check. Paul, check.

He's one hell of a defensive player, period. If he keeps this up, he could be considered for DPOY.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#7 » by Verbal » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:26 am

No FA option?


Hm...

I'll have to see more games then.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#8 » by Dr Aki » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:32 am

Erik Eleven wrote:
Akiho wrote:
Erik Eleven wrote:Ariza makes good decisions with the ball whenever he initiates the offense. In one of the pre-season games he was playing point for a longer stretch, and I thought he did very well, actually. If the playoffs were today, I would like the following line-up to finish off games:

Ariza, Kobe, Radman/Odom, Gasol, Bynum

Ariza is quick enough for the quick point guards. He's also long enough to bother Deron Williams, Billups etc. That defense is no fun to face.


opposition defenses would collapse nonstop on odom and ariza when they try to slash and give up the long deuces

kobe, gasol and bynum wouldnt have any room to operate...


Wasn't late game defensive point guard the topic of this thread?

You win a tight seven game series with late game lock down defense. With such a line-up, it'll be extremely hard for the opponent to score and those guys can run the fast break just as well as anyone — if not better.

I'd go with Ariza or Fisher at point, depending on circumstances like match-ups and daily form. Same goes for the combo Radman/Odom/Gasol/Bynum.

In fact, late in the game tonight, Phil played a very similar line-up where a certain player was assigned to guard CP3. You guessed it — Trevor Ariza. I think the other four might have been Kobe, Radman, Lamar, Gasol.


did someone forget to mention a game-killing steal from fish and fast break that lead to FTs that pushed the lead out to 8?

especially after giving the hornets an offensive board that made phil blow his lid??

btw, id sooner play sasha than radman in the clutch
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#9 » by milesfides » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:40 am

DubaLakers wrote:Miles I think D Fish answered your questions this evening.


I don't think so. He had a great shooting night. That happens. He can also get very cold. He was shooting 32% over the past 6 games before tonight. But that's Fish, when he's on, he's on, but he can get into cold shooting droughts, and his game isn't multidimensional enough to help out enough in other ways.

He had one rebound and one assist in 30 minutes. If that does sound nitpicking, just look at Fish's career averages. He averages about 3 assists and 2 boards a game. That's not overwhelming contributions. True, Fish had a nice steal on David West at the end of this game, demonstrating Fish's experience.

But he gave CP3 little resistance all night. Chris Paul could do whatever he wanted, and while he is indeed quick with the ball, Fish was 10 feet from him as Paul laid the ball in. And Fish had to sag about a good 10 feet on the next possession, because he needed that space to react to Paul's quickness and he doesn't have the length to recover. Subsequently, Paul sank the wide-open jumper that Fish couldn't contest.

Fish is a pure shooter. He'll have good shooting games, even streaks of 2-3 games. But he can also grow extremely cold, and as he's shown throughout his career, that can hurt the team, especially in the playoffs. There's just not enough to his game to sustain his contribution to our team, particularly in situations where every game counts.

Fish still can have a very important role on our team. He's a steady influence on the team in terms of professionalism, dedication, and energy. But as a player, he's always been a streaky shooting guard in a 1's body. He had the luxury of being able to play that role because of Kobe's playing the primary ballhandler on the Lakers, both times around.

The limitations of his game caused the Lakers to let him go as a FA back in 04. Then the Warriors realized that Fish was more of a backup shooting guard than a starting point guard, traded for Baron Davis, and after using Fish as mostly a bench player to back up both spots, traded him to the Jazz. The Jazz used him as a backup shooting guard. When Deron Williams would go to the bench, Kirilenko would play point guard.

Fish has always had his limitations, and while he is a much more reliable player than Smush Parker, we may have better alternatives.

Why is a career backup, aging to boot, playing starting PG for a championship caliber team? Either we make a trade to address weaknesses, or we promote players who can contribute more on both ends.

I love Fish, but he should be backing up Kobe at shooting guard. That's appropriate for both him and the team.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#10 » by DEEP3CL » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:30 am

After tonight we have to seriously consider Sasha at the 1, for a few reasons. One he defends and gets into his opponents heads, he's the better shooter and can finish better at the rim them both Fish and Jordan. Two he's bigger which fits the mode Phil likes. Three Sasha isn't fazed on who he's facing he'll play the same regardless. We all know how D-Will ate Jordan like salami during the playoffs.

Jordan seems like he paralyzed by facing CP3 or D-Will, like he wants to be on par with them but knows he's not even close. Sasha wouldn't give a damn who it is he going to invite them into his world and torture them mentally.

Bottom line...................it's gotta be Sasha's job next season.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#11 » by milesfides » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:04 am

Brother, I think if the Lakers want to win a championship this year, they'd better make some moves right now, because some things don't change.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#12 » by DEEP3CL » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:14 am

milesfides wrote:Brother, I think if the Lakers want to win a championship this year, they'd better make some moves right now, because some things don't change.
That February - March part of our schedule will write the book on our season. If the play at the 1 is shaky, closing out the season will be like all of us trying to escape Crystal Lake's Jason Vorhees with Mike Myers as his guest.
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SmartWentCrazy wrote:It's extremely unlikely that they end up in the top 3.They're probably better off trying to win and giving Philly the 8th pick than tanking and giving them the 4th.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#13 » by Slava » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:17 am

I think it was pretty clear today. I trust Sasha's shooting more than Fisher's and I'm comfortable with the ball in his hands. Anyways Kobe plays the 1 in clutch time.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#14 » by Verbal » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:41 am

milesfides wrote:Brother, I think if the Lakers want to win a championship this year, they'd better make some moves right now, because some things don't change.


How's the Free Agency list looking?

Steph is an option...

But not many clear cut Triangle PGs out there.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#15 » by realfung » Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:28 pm

Farma all the way
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#16 » by Erik Eleven » Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:45 pm

I've wanted to see Hunter here for the last few years, but then again, there's little he can do that Ariza can't do much better.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#17 » by Sofa King » Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:49 pm

I wouldn't go with Farmar at the end of games unless the Lakers are behind. He's got energy to push the ball. That's his game. Make the 2nd unit run.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#18 » by microfib4thewin » Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:20 pm

I am still befuddled people think Sasha is a good defender. He only defends well if he can get into the other person's head, if they are unfazed by his flopping act and his general annoyance guys can blow by him big or small. As for him running the point, if he has any quality that can make him a PG it's been largely undeveloped, and at his age he either knows or doesn't know how to run the offense, sad to say, if Sasha is on another team like Derek is, he'd be a 3rd stringer at the 1 spot because he doesn't have the kind of decision making that a point is supposed to have.
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#19 » by Erik Eleven » Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:46 pm

In my opinion, Sasha hasn't ever played good defense — It looks like more than it is. He's a lame defender and a poor playmaker, in my opinion. I hate seeing him commit gamble fouls on the wrong end of the floor. Just quit it already!
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Re: Point Guard Dilemma 

Post#20 » by Sedale Threatt » Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:55 pm

Totally agree. Sasha isn't a good defender, he's an earnest defender. There's a big difference. As John Wooden says, never mistake activity for achievement. (I think the long hair whipping around his face adds to the dervish image). He can handle certain matchups, such as a Jason Kidd or an Eric Snow. He would get absolutely obliterated by the smaller, quicker types. Unfortunately, there's a lot more of the former than the latter.

As the roster stands, we don't really have an answer for our lack of a stout defensive PG. Is it crippling? Remains to be seen. The next NBA champion without any holes will be the first. I thought our craptastic performance last night was more of a general lack of cohesiveness and effort than any failure at one particular spot. When Wallace is on his game, that's still a pretty salty lineup to handle.

What was really disheartening was that Fisher felt the need to jack up 16 shots. There is never, ever any circumstance, unless he's absolutely white hot, he should be shooting that often. It's tough enough to maintain any continuity with one guy taking 30 shots. But when you add Fisher taking 16, it's virtually impossible. He's a veteran, he should know better than that.

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