Defense Barometer (merges ongoing)

[milesfides]

At the risk of sounding like a wet blanket, I'm already thinking about the playoffs, and potential issues.

I think it's fairly clear who's winning the SF battle. It's Ariza. As long as he stays healthy, I believe we've addressed the eyesore that was Radamn in the finals.

That nearly takes care of all the positions, except for one: Point Guard.

Fish has lots of experience, rarely makes a blatant error, tries hard all the time, and his teammates know what to expect from him. Which is part of the problem; he is still a one-trick pony, a pure shooter in a point guard's body. Every drive to the basket is a prayer, and his passing skills are mediocre. His shot selection is sometimes questionable with the pull-up transition jumpers, terrific for igniting opponent fast breaks. His defense is earnest, but he's a step slow with limited length, compensating by overaggressively pressuring the ball - riding the opponent and prone to getting called for fouls.

Fisher has been notoriously inconsistent throughout the season and in the playoffs. He may get hot for a few games, but he may go ice cold. And there's just not enough to his game to contribute in other ways.

In comparison, Farmar has become better skilled in almost every facet of the game. His productive efficiency is much higher. But his main limitation is that he's a scoring sixth man who racks up the stats on the second unit, but still makes questionable decisions, and thus can't be relied upon during crunch time situations.

In the playoffs, Farmar has been inconsistent, exploited, and overpowered.

The answer isn't as simple as starting Farmar over Fisher, since Farmar is doing very well as a sixth man scorer, enough to be among the league leaders at PER.

But his impact off the bench will most likely be reduced in the playoffs, where the rotations are shortened.

Fish or Farmar? Which one? What's the solution?

1. Fisher gets younger. Also, for an old dog, he's got to learn new tricks. Probability? Unlikely.

2. Farmar matures and becomes capable of running a team rather than a sixth man scorer. To do that, his role must change. Probability? Somewhat unlikely, given his success as sixth man contributing to the team's overall success.

On the other hand:

3. Odom shifts from PF off the bench to PG, as the coaching staff tried to experiment in the preseason. Probability? Unlikely, but imho, it does show that the coaching staff is aware of the need at PG.

Lastly,

4. Vujacic: dark horse candidate. Vujacic has underrated point guard skills, as he played much PG before joining the Lakers. He's the best shooter on our team. He has the height for quick and easy entry passes. He's even shown signs of expanding a driving game (another advantage over Fisher). He's also a tenacious defender, and has a penchant for getting under the skin of small guards. He also signed a major contract, yet is getting limited minutes due to the glut of small forwards, which is forcing him to get only the scraps leftover from Kobe at shooting guard.

While I dislike the idea of a prototypical "Phil Jackson point guard," Vujacic can bring much of the skills necessary at that position.

Quite frankly, I believe Fish is too inconsistent and one-dimensional as our starting PG, and I believe he is a limiting factor in the progress of the starting lineup. I cannot foresee him as our starting PG in the playoffs and being consistently good and productive.

I also think Farmar, despite the improvement in his game, is probably too ensconced in his role off the bench. I'm not sure the coaching staff would want to change his role and lose the engine of the 2nd unit. Moreover, he has some physical limitations which make him susceptible to getting overpowered on defense.

I don't think Odom ever worked as a primary ballhandler in the offense, and I don't think he'll work there now. He's fairly good as a PF off the bench, however, and I believe he'll continue in that role.

Vujacic is the best shooter among all of the them. He's the best defender. Farmar is a better passer in transition, but I think Vujacic can be a better passer in the halfcourt (more length with underrated ballhandling skills). I'd give the edge to Vujacic in finishing over Fisher (at least he knows his limitations). I also think that Vujacic is a gamer, he's aggressive yet plays smart, and he's simply been a better player than Farmar in the playoffs.

I think he's the best compromise, but more than that, he brings some tangible advantages to PG. Heading into the playoffs, I'd like to feel we have an advantage at every position.

I would start him at PG now, because I don't see the starting lineup playing with too much chemistry, and I'd like for him to get as much experience as possible at the point.

[RocketPower23]

Agreed. It seems like Fisher's skills are starting to deteriorate, which makes it even worse when he starts to do too much on both ends of the court. I like Fish, but I just don't want to see him become that veteran who is a shell of his former self, but yet still thinks he can do what he used to do. Farmar would probably be the favorite to start, but as you said, he has become such a key factor to the bench's success; it would be hard to see the bench perform at the same level without him. Sasha is probably the one guy who we could afford to remove him from the bench and still not lose all that punch off the bench. Sasha normally plays within his limits and while I'm weary on his ability to guard point guards on a consistent bases and his decision making isn't all that great, it won't be such a problem with our starting five.

[dockingsched]

i think farmar has played with kobe more the last two games than in his entire career. changes are a coming.

[Dr Aki]

farmar is the future but not the present, he needs to improve his defense

too often he gets burned by opposition PGs (so does fish, but fish gets burned less often and is the better flopper)

im gonna go for lamar, but only because noone else will probably vote for him. not only will he be guarded by the opposition SF, it will probably free kobe and sasha up to be guarded by smaller players and then there will be a lot of post-up opportunities

that is of course until they decide to pack it in and play zone, which of course i want fish out there with kobe and sash in the wing positions instead

but i dont have 2 votes

[microfib4thewin]

Care to elaborate on Sasha's 'PG skillz'? I am not seeing any of that quality from him.

[milesfides]

I already outlined it above.

I mentioned that he can fulfill what we need from him at that position. We don't need for him to dominate the ball and average 10 assists a game. He's not that type of point guard, we're not that type of team.

We need

1. Somebody who can play defense. This is arguably the most important factor at PG.

07-08 opponent PER:

Fish 17.5, Farmar 16.5, Vujacic 13.5.

True, Vujacic did not get a major portion of the minutes at PG, so one could dismiss that number due to sample size. But in the 2005-2006 season, when Vujacic actually did play many minutes at PG, his opponent PER was 14.6. These numbers support observation - Vujacic is our best defender at point guard because of his length and tenacity. Fisher gets into foul trouble because of his overaggressiveness in order to compensate for his lack of quickness and length. Farmar tends to get physically overwhelmed by bigger point guards - and the league is full of them, particularly the good ones.

2. Somebody who can shoot and spread the floor - the primary reason why Odom cannot be our PG on offense. If Vujacic is at the top of that key with the ball, he immediately draws out the line of defense.

3. Lastly, another ballhandler who can make entry passes and make good decisions. Vujacic is an underrated passer because he's been utilized as a catch-and-shoot player. His height and length allows him to be an effective post entry passer, which is particularly important because we have 3 post players in Bynum, Gasol, and Kobe. Unfortunately, I have seen Fish and Farmar unable to consistently throw our big men the entry pass with good timing because of their lack of height.

The first two are the most important factors. The last isn't as important because of the low/high post with Gasol and Bynum and having Kobe on the team. There just isn't a need for a ball-dominant point guard, just one that can throw entry passes well, make good decisions, and not turn the ball over.

Fish is like a worse version of Vujacic. A pure shooter, but not quite as good. A hard-working defender, but not as good. And to top it off, a worse finisher than Vujacic.

Farmar is flat out a better player than Vujacic. But he is a different, uptempo point guard. He might not be as good of a fit with the halfcourt starters, and we lose his remarkable effectiveness off the bench, a significant factor in our early season success.

In short, I think Vujacic needs to replace Fisher because he's an upgrade. I think Farmar needs to stay a sixth man because he's too productive to remove from the 2nd unit, and I don't think he fits as well with the starters.

[crazyeights]

So Sasha is a better half-court passer merely because he's longer? I honestly cannot recall very many entry passes from him.

[Erik Eleven]

Ariza makes good decisions with the ball whenever he initiates the offense. In one of the pre-season games he was playing point for a longer stretch, and I thought he did very well, actually. If the playoffs were today, I would like the following line-up to finish off games:

Ariza, Kobe, Radman/Odom, Gasol, Bynum

Ariza is quick enough for the quick point guards. He's also long enough to bother Deron Williams, Billups etc. That defense is no fun to face.

[Dr Aki]

Ariza makes good decisions with the ball whenever he initiates the offense. In one of the pre-season games he was playing point for a longer stretch, and I thought he did very well, actually. If the playoffs were today, I would like the following line-up to finish off games:

Ariza, Kobe, Radman/Odom, Gasol, Bynum

Ariza is quick enough for the quick point guards. He's also long enough to bother Deron Williams, Billups etc. That defense is no fun to face.

opposition defenses would collapse nonstop on odom and ariza when they try to slash and give up the long deuces

kobe, gasol and bynum wouldnt have any room to operate

sure for a defensive stop end-game (time-out festival) itd be viable but not a cohesive unit

i also saw that one possession where ariza was forced to bring the ball past halfcourt towards the end of the mavs game today

he looked really awkward and it definitely did not have the look of security when he was trying to drive against kidd before he finally passed it to kobe (who went to brick a shot lol)

ariza is definitely not a PG

[Chubby Chaser]

Come playoffs I see Fisher getting the start and bulk of the minutes. Granted we got experience from last years run but we are still relatively young and you can't put enough value on experience in the playoffs, especially at the pg position. Also, I see Ariza getting a lot of minutes at the SF in the playoffs and with that. We are going to need Fisher in the lineup to space the floor. Because with Kobe and Ariza slashing, we are going to need someone lurking behind the 3 to punish the defense if they lag off their man. And fisher is still head and shoulders above farmar in shooting. Farmar is good where he is. He's still young and immature. But he provides great energy and a spark off the bench to get our team going when we're flat. I'd still feel more comfortable with fisher in the game to close it out in the playoffs. We were doubting him last year too, but look what Fish did in the playoffs against Utah. Farmar still hasn't proven that he can keep this intensity and consistency throughout an entire season and the playoffs. He burned out last year. Whereas Fish is consistent throughout. Farmar's time will come eventually. But not this season.

[eckoner]

For now i would say Fisher, due to the fact he has the ability to really see the floor, He provides good spacing and can get the other guys set up. At the end of the game the PG is not there to take shots but to get them for others.

With that said, Farmar is right there, I think the baton could be passed before the end of the season.

[Sedale Threatt]

An interesting question, with no clear-cut answer. Everybody listed has their strengths and weaknesses.

I suspect that Phil will stick with Fisher until it's patently clear that he can't. Fish has obviously had a rough start, but he's still a solid, albeit flawed, defender, and in my opinion that should be our No. 1 concern. That's how we won last night's game, and that's how we should try to win every game -- defense first.

Plus, Phil likes his veterans. Remember Harper on the 99-00 team. He had some pretty glaring weaknesses at that stage, but Phil trusted him so he got his minutes. I would put Fish in the same category.

I like Farmar a ton, but as Miles points out, his decision-making, and I'd add defense, are still questionable. No question he's the PG of the future, perhaps as soon as this season if he improves in those areas. But right now, I'm not sure if I trust him completely to do the little things (shot selection, ball protection, defensive rotations) at the end of a tight ball game.

Not that Fish has done a great job in some of those categories, but you generally know what you're going to get out of him.

If the matchup is right, Vujacic could definitely handle the job. If there's been one thing I'd complain about this year -- and it's not really a complaint -- it's that it feels like we're wasting Sasha a little bit. It's not Phil's fault; Ariza is playing out of his mind, and Kobe is Kobe, so there are only so many minutes to go around.

But he's such a good shooter, and a willing defender, that I wouldn't have any problem seeing him out on the court in the crunch. Provided, of course, he's matchup against somebody he can handle. I see guys like Paul and Williams and Parker just destroying him, but then they do that to everybody so that might not be a fair statement.

Odom is not an option. They tried the PG expiriment in training camp and saw that it didn't work, so I don't expect we'll see much of that.

All in all, it's a legitimate issue with no easy answer. But if you look at Phil's history, I think you can make a pretty good guess as to what he'll probably do.

[hermes]

i'll go with Fish for now, with Farmar taking over later in the year

[Gus McCrae]

how about...if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Fisher should still be starting and our bench is amazing. Farmar, Vujacic, Odom, Radman (as suggested off the bench). I like that unit. It's also built to run.

That's very interesting idea of Vujacic starting, but it may almost be outsmarting ourselves to toy with the lineup that much. I think Fisher is smart and mature enough to understand that, similiar to Radman, if they're making mistakes or missing shots, they'll be immediately benched for a reserve.

I think we should keep it that way in my opinion. Also, Farmar will be the PG for the future.
PS would you trade Odom for Mayo (haha random) but I would.

[milesfides]

So Sasha is a better half-court passer merely because he's longer? I honestly cannot recall very many entry passes from him.

Well, that's because his role has changed since he joined the Lakers. For the past two years, he's been used as a catch-and-shoot 2/3. Yet he joined the Lakers as a point guard, a position he's played for years in Europe.

Height plays a major factor in entry passes, it's simple physics. A height advantage allows for better passing angles around defenders. Which is why guys like Ron Harper, Brian Shaw, Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc, Lamar Odom, all had significant ball-handling duties under Phil Jackson.

Farmar is a good passer in transition. But both he and Fish have trouble getting the quick entry pass into the post, which in my opinion, has been a big reason why Bynum and Gasol haven't been involved as much as they should have in these early games. Good ball movement should go north and south, penetrating or kicking out for high percentage shots.

This is why Kobe still has to come out beyond the 3-point line and play a major playmaking role.

This is also why Fish takes questionable pull up jumpers so frequently, because he doesn't have the passing lanes, nor does he have the quickness to beat his man off the dribble.

Imho, the reason why our starting lineup doesn't have as much fluidity, better ball movement, is precisely due to Fisher's inability to initiate the offense as a playmaker, as well as Radmanovic's quick trigger and poor passing.

I think our current offense is best with a two man game between Kobe at guard and Gasol in the high post. They are our two best playmakers in the halfcourt.

I like the sideline triangle on the strong side consisting of Vujacic at guard, Bynum in the post, and Ariza at the wing, especially since Ariza is hitting his outside shot and moves so well without the ball (baseline to baseline cuts). I agree with EE, I like how Ariza is moving the ball as well, it's quite surprising.

Imho, I think that's the most logical and strongest primary lineup, whether it's used to start and/or end games, that should be our workhorse lineup.

But Vujacic is a key substitution for Fish (Ariza for Radamn is a foregone conclusion).

As far as defending little guards go, I feel Vujacic has done well against them in the past. Especially getting under their skin. Secondly, I don't think our current guards do so well against them either, and I think Vujacic will come out ahead on either one of them. Lastly, our zones and our bigs will help discourage penetration. The small guards will get trapped and passing lanes will be denied. Vujacic just needs to harass them as usual, and that will be better than what Fish or Farmar can do.

And I disagree with the idea that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." We were rolling last season all the way until the Finals until we were exploited, most notably at point guard and small forward.

If we're playing for championships, there's no room for complacency, and we need to prepare and anticipate issues that might bite us in the ass down the line.

Let me tell you, Fisher taking pull up J's would play right into Boston's hands. Same with Radmanovic. We need to get Bynum and Gasol involved more, and it can't be just Kobe doing that, or else we'd see another repeat of a Kobe zone.

Everybody must try to play complete basketball, that's Lakers basketball, and both Radmanovic and Fisher have better replacements behind them.

[Iran Haddadi]

These are the scores they've held opponents to so far.

76
79
97
88
82
99
86
106
109
92
90
108
93

I don't if it's just me but I've been watching a lot of these games and the Lakers defense has gotten more complacent as the Lakers have realized how dominant they are. They're not playing the consistent defense they said they would every possession. What's going on? Am I just imagining things? If you watch a Celtics game they always get back on defense and don't leave themselves excuses they care about every score. That's the kind of defense the Lakers need?

[TonyMontana]

These are the scores they've held opponents to so far.

76
79
97
88
82
99
86
106
109
92
90
108
93

I don't if it's just me but I've been watching a lot of these games and the Lakers defense has gotten more complacent as the Lakers have realized how dominant they are. They're not playing the consistent defense they said they would every possession. What's going on? Am I just imagining things? If you watch a Celtics game they always get back on defense and don't leave themselves excuses they care about every score. That's the kind of defense the Lakers need?

Hey Brah are you Persian?
And if you are then................ NAYA INJA ABERO MARO BEBAR DADASH BA IN MAS KAREH BAZI.

[Iran Haddadi]

Areh, Irooni hastam. But stay on topic.

[TonyMontana]

Areh, Irooni hastam. But stay on topic.

Okayyy, Kob ahgee Irooni hasti, pas fahmidi ke gofatam Abero Nahbar ba inn NON SENSE DADASH.

[lakersfanatic]

Either they have been slacking or.. phil is taking our starters out too soon...
I mean even though our 2nd unit is pretty solid.. they run fast and running too fast may have it's own negative affects such as more turnovers.. more ill advised decisions..etc...

Or its' just because we're the most winning-est (if it is even a word) team out there, teams are playing harder?