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Honestly, this is how I feel. If you don't feel the same way, that's fine.

I don't think that we can win a championship with these players playing minutes: Farmar, Ariza, Odom, Walton.

To me, a championship team consist of 3 very good players(Kobe, Bynum, Gasol) and then they're surrounded with shooters and veterans (Sasha, Vlade, Fisher).

Last year when everyone thought our bench was far superior to the Celtics', I wasn't fooled. To me, a good bench is a bench that is steady and has players who you know will give you solid production with nothing fancy. Players such as Cassel, Powe, PJ Brown, and James Posey knew their roles off the bench. They might not be as talented, but they never try anything ridiculous and will always produce because they are very good at one thing. For Powe, it's hustle, for Brown, it's defense and rebounding, for Posey, it's for defense and 3pt shooting.

This is where Farmar, Ariza, Odom, Walton come in. I feel like these 4 players are not solid players that you KNOW what you're going to get. Farmar is still too young to be a backup on a championship team. His head is not at the right place. Odom will always be Odom. He's not good at one thing thus, you never know what you'll get from him. Walton is the same. Though he's a good passer, his passing does not usually change the outcome of the game and he's a liability in almost every other facet of the game.

Ariza is sort of the hard player to figure out. I know is PER/stats indicate that he's a very good player but I am not sold. His game is not "solid". He is good at slashing to the rim and getting steals but unfortunately, when he's out there with the starters, there isn't enough space on the floor for others to operate because his man will back off. Way off. I've seen too many times where Ariza's man completely ignores him and goes to double Kobe. Those possessions always remind me of the dark times when Kobe gets tripled off of Luke and Odom's men in 05-07. If we play Ariza with Kobe, the Celtics are going to make the game hell for Kobe, absolutely hell.

Other parts of Ariza that I need to address is his gambling for steals and his attempt to get every offensive rebound. There are times when I just sit there and shake me head when he goes for steals so much. Solid defense like what the Spurs and Celtics play is the only way to a consistent defense. Steals aren't always going to be there. You cannot rely on steals.

One of the reasons why teams are running us out of the gym is because Ariza does not get back on defense. Instead, he runs to try to get the offensive rebound. Yes, he gets a lot of those but most of the time he fails and the other team gets an open shot at the other end. Leave the offensive rebounding to the bigs or if the ball bounces far.

One more thing about Ariza: I don't think Ariza can sustain his level of play and he won't be nearly as effective in the playoffs. Just like his 3pt FG%, I feel like his game will decline as the season goes on.

In the end, no matter how much defense Phil preaches, you need the right players with the right mindset.

The great thing about Ariza, Odom, Farmar is that their trade values are fairly high. It's almost coincident that all 4 of them are not reliable FT shooters.

I would love to Package Odom+Ariza or Farmar for someone like Prince or another veteran.

And let me make this clear: We're not building around Farmar or Odom. We're building around Kobe. We want players that make it easier for Kobe and vice versa. We do not want players that will hinder Kobe.

I understand what you're trying to get to.

But.. you mentioned Radmanovic as a good player to have. You mean, you would rather have him than Trevor Ariza?

Sorry, I love his role of being a "shooter," but one trick ponies don't cut it most of the time.

TylersLakers wrote:I understand what you're trying to get to.

But.. you mentioned Radmanovic as a good player to have. You mean, you would rather have him than Trevor Ariza?

Sorry, I love his role of being a "shooter," but one trick ponies don't cut it most of the time.

I guess I should specifically mention that those are the players that we can trade and have high enough value to make the trade worth it. Luke's value is as bad as Vlade's but at least Vlade is always solid from the 3.

Neither Ariza nor Radman is the answer to our SF problems but at least we can get closer to fixing the problems trading Ariza because he has higher value.

And besides, we really need all the 3pt shooting we can to space the floor for our 2 7 footers and Kobe.

He is right. It sounds crazy at first and I love Farmar but these guys are highly overrated espially by the Laker fans which I am guilty of to and we could get alot for them. We have the means to aquaire Prince with these guys. Why not do it. I know if it ain't broke don't fix it but we are truley playing for championship or bust. As of now we all know the Celtics are superior. Add Prince to the Lakers and we take it in 6 games.

TylersLakers wrote:I understand what you're trying to get to.

But.. you mentioned Radmanovic as a good player to have. You mean, you would rather have him than Trevor Ariza?Sorry, I love his role of being a "shooter," but one trick ponies don't cut it most of the time.

There are many nights I would take Vlad of Ariza. I have not been very thrilled with Ariza's shooting. He hashad nights that he has gone 1 for 10 or 2 for 12. So there are nights like that I would take Vlad over Ariza.

Now if we can ship Ariza and Jordan or Vlad and Jordan for Matt Barnes then we are talking some hoop.

Patterns wrote: and his attempt to get every offensive rebound.

ya that kind of hustle really gets under my skin too


and getting back on defense isn't all on one guy, there are four others who are supposed to get back as well

Great post. You're right about those 4 bench players we have as compared to the Celtics. All the teams that have won the title since I can remember have had those role players you can rely on. They're the kind of players that you know for a fact are going to give you solid production at their specific role. They're not showboating, or risky with their skills, they just go out and do what needs to be done to help the team. When the Laker organization decided to build around Kobe they committed to that for the long haul. If there are players on this roster who can't get it done in the long term, then it's time to bring in some players who can. I am not aware of any that are currently available, but I could be off.

Of any of those guys you mentioned I would see Farmar and Vlad going before Odom, that's just my opinion of what I think Laker management would do in the grand scheme of things. I may piss off some of you for saying this, but to me, Farmar at times seems like he's looking for his before he's looking to improve the team's chances of winning. I'm hoping that's not the case and with that meeting he had with Phil, they clarified his role on the team as to what he's expected to do.

This team has the opportunity to win 5-6 titles, and making sure that the right players get placed around Kobe+Gasol is the way to do that.

yeah, i see ariza and kobe going for too many steals.. making their D as well as their O a liability.

From the stand point we're at now playing these close easy games... we really need to re-adjust our defensive or change Rambis's job hehe. But our bench has gone down a notch.. imo

i think we can win with these guys.we have everything shooting, defense, and good leadership to take our team to the finals again, and im pretty sure we'll be able to finish off and win a championship.I guarantee it.

I've been very critical of their defense and called for a defensive roster upgrade at the PG and SF spots. However, I'd be very shocked to see more than two players being moved — Phil doesn't like making trades mid-season. Whether I like it or not, I'd be surprised if we move more than one player, two at the most.

We should also keep in mind that it's really early in the season and this team hasn't even played well in 19 of their 21 wins. As the season goes along, Phil will work out the worst kinks and get them playing closer to their potential. If this roster stays the way it is, expect them to get better from here on out. They haven't even played near their potential in the last 22 games. The problems we have are mostly mental (except from Radman who is just a lost cause).

Phil is a true master at gauging the season and having his teams playing their best ball going into the playoffs. Before we trade the whole team, I want to watch them for a few more games. I trust Phil and I think the last game might have been a turning point, especially for Farmar.

We're currently 14th in the league in turnovers, but we're still 21-3. I expect that to be fixed, and that would make a world of difference. I also expect Farmar to better judge when to run and when to set it up from here on out, and that should make us even harder to beat.

As an interesting side note, Miami are 1st in the league in turnovers, Boston are rocking the 28th place with 16.2 per game. Hopefully we can exploit that on Christmas with Kobe and Ariza running the break for easy dunks.

To answer your question, I think we have a slim chance, but I would like to see defensive upgrades at the PG and SF spots. And yeah, we need to sign Zo for the vets min. He'll be watching tonight. Impress him, guys. Feed the post. Pound them on the inside.

With this current roster, there's only 3 teams we can't beat. They're all from the East and it's Boston, Cleveland and Detroit. We can beat any of the other teams and make it to the NBA Finals. But if we played one of those 3 teams then we won't win a championship.

Erik Eleven wrote:I've been very critical of their defense and called for a defensive roster upgrade at the PG and SF spots. However, I'd be very shocked to see more than two players being moved — Phil doesn't like making trades mid-season. Whether I like it or not, I'd be surprised if we move more than one player, two at the most.

We should also keep in mind that it's really early in the season and this team hasn't even played well in 19 of their 21 wins. As the season goes along, Phil will work out the worst kinks and get them playing closer to their potential. If this roster stays the way it is, expect them to get better from here on out. They haven't even played near their potential in the last 22 games. The problems we have are mostly mental (except from Radman who is just a lost cause).

Phil is a true master at gauging the season and having his teams playing their best ball going into the playoffs. Before we trade the whole team, I want to watch them for a few more games. I trust Phil and I think the last game might have been a turning point, especially for Farmar.

We're currently 14th in the league in turnovers, but we're still 21-3. I expect that to be fixed, and that would make a world of difference. I also expect Farmar to better judge when to run and when to set it up from here on out, and that should make us even harder to beat.

As an interesting side note, Miami are 1st in the league in turnovers, Boston are rocking the 28th place with 16.2 per game. Hopefully we can exploit that on Christmas with Kobe and Ariza running the break for easy dunks.

To answer your question, I think we have a slim chance, but I would like to see defensive upgrades at the PG and SF spots. And yeah, we need to sign Zo for the vets min. He'll be watching tonight. Impress him, guys. Feed the post. Pound them on the inside.

For real? That's awesome.

Not that i've ever been a big Farmar believer but given how much everyone has loved to talk about his talent and potential for the last year or so is it really fair to just be writing him off? Grant it he's playing at a high level these days (for an average high school PG)...should we really just say that his head will straight up not allow him to be successful on this team? He's demonstrated in his tenure thus far as a Laker that he's a bit streaky. Last year how many of us were calling for him to be the starter at different points throughout the season? My point being I think we should at least get halfway through the season before calling for his head. The team simply needs more time to click and work out kinks before calling for major roster changes.

hermes wrote:

Patterns wrote: and his attempt to get every offensive rebound.

ya that kind of hustle really gets under my skin too


and getting back on defense isn't all on one guy, there are four others who are supposed to get back as well

Anyone can run to the basket after a missed shot and try to get the offensive rebound. If all 5 of the defensive players try to go get the offensive rebound, there will be wide open shots at the other if they don't get the board.

Yes, there are 4 other guys but the 2 bigs are the ones getting the offensive rebound. If Ariza+2 bigs go for the offensive rebound, then it creates a 3 against 2 fast break on the other end.

Allow Ariza to shoot that open three. 28% isn't very good but the fact of the matter is that if they allow that many open threes they'll get burnt eventually. Ariza has the exact same 3p% as Rajon Rondo. Explain to me how the Celtics can be so effective?

The spacing factor seemed to be of no concern for the Bulls with FRICKIN Rodman on the floor and Pippen.

Beacuse Rajon Rondo has become a top-5 point guard who averages more than 7 assists and has a 3:1 assist to turnover ratio and is a good finisher. The Lakers tried to leave Rondo alone last year, but he was such a good passer and driver that we couldn't leave him alone, and in fact, he was punching a hole in our defense.

Ariza, as a small forward with some highly suspect ballhandling and passing skills, has to be able to catch and shoot that 3-pointer, and after a hot start, he's come back to earth. He's not a reliable shooter and that is something defenses can exploit. You can't compare Ariza and Rondo's shooting because Rondo has the ball in his hands, Ariza doesn't. Ariza needs to be able to catch and shoot.

Similarly, Rodman was such a good offensive rebounder that defenses couldn't cheat off him. His man had to try like hell to keep him off the boards. All Rodman had to do was run around and try to grab boards. You can't compare Rodman and Ariza, because Rodman was one of the greatest rebounders of all time who changed the game.

Elite skills can make up for other deficiencies.

But the key is, making sure the elite skills are the appropriate ones, and the deficiencies are tolerable. While point guards can lack a shot and still be effective (Jason Kidd, Rondo), they can't lack point guard skills and still be effective. Which is why Fish, despite being such a good shooter, is hurting the team because a point guard needs to be able to make plays and facilitate the offense. For small forwards, shooting and defense is far more important than any other skills, which is why there are so many defensive specialists at SG/SF who can also shoot. A team doesn't need a small forward who can handle the ball and not be able to consistently do much else, which is why Odom is on the bench.

And there are plenty of effective big men who can't shoot. That's not a high priority. The Pistons won a championship with Ben Wallace, who like Rodman, was all about rebounding, setting screens, etc. Boston won with Perkins, who can't hit a shot outside five feet.

So, bottom line, certain positions prioritize certain skills, and unfortunately for our team, we have two, at PG and SF, that are missing the essentials.

You're making the mistake of confusing the importance of skills across different positions.

Ariza is not getting nearly enough credit around here, in my opinion.

Personally, I don't care how poor the offensive flow or our shooting is right now, it's all about playing good defense so we can control the tempo and work up some offensive flow in the half court set. The offense will come to the team that plays consistent defense. It's not like our offense has serious problems (although it looked like it yesterday).

Ariza is our best wing defender, period. Yeah, I'd actually say he's a better man and team defender than Kobe at this point. It was glaringly obvious at the end of the game that Ariza did a better job on Wade than Kobe did. And that says a lot. Kobe isn't exactly a slouch man defender. Ariza also plays the passing lanes better than kobe does. He flashes and recovers more effectively, even when he doesn't get the steal and makes it much tougher for the opposition to run their offense. He gambles more wisely than Kobe. It seems like people think that Ariza's only defensive skill is to gamble for steals. That is so far from the truth it's not even funny.

There were two consecutive show-tell possessions towards the end of the game, one with Kobe guarding him and one with Ariza guarding him. Wade scored on both of them, like great offensive players will certain nights, but Ariza made it much tougher on him than Kobe did. There was simply no doubt about it — when Wade attacked Kobe, Wade was the aggressor. He got an easy look and made it. When he faced Trevor, it wasn't clear who had the upper hand. Wade was forced to make an incredibly difficult shot and made it.

Radman is a top five three point shooter in this league but he's not getting minutes in crunch time. Because of defense. Luke isn't a good enough defender either, that's why he didn't play at the end of the game yesterday either. There is a reason for why Phil played Ariza at the end of games, and it's defense.

Ariza plays the game the right way. All he has to do is to improve his outside shot, but frankly, I don't care. Bynum and Pau need to get better position in the paint and our guards and swingmen — Kobe and Ariza included — need to make it their priority to go inside out on every possession.

Ariza is the type of player you need to capitalize on the opponent's mistakes. As the season goes on, I'm confident we'll all agree about his overall value to this team. To me, he's a starter. We already have an elite three point shooter in our starting line-up — Derek Fisher, number three in the league in 3pt percentage. I cringe when he shoots, but he's currently making them at a very efficient rate.

I'm not even going to argue about the hustle factor. It's rather obvious that Ariza hustles more than anyone else on this team. These guys sorely need his intensity out there because it's contagious, and seemingly, the rest of the players don't seem to be able to carry that with them by own engine. Rest of team simply don't play as hard as he does.

Start Ariza, let Luke run the second unit with Lamar and substitute him with Radman off the bench for a temporary scoring punch when we go dry. Let the starters set the intensity level, not the unreliable bench mob.

Jajwanda wrote:Allow Ariza to shoot that open three. 28% isn't very good but the fact of the matter is that if they allow that many open threes they'll get burnt eventually. Ariza has the exact same 3p% as Rajon Rondo. Explain to me how the Celtics can be so effective?

The spacing factor seemed to be of no concern for the Bulls with FRICKIN Rodman on the floor and Pippen.

Bulls played in an era with no zone defense so 3pt shooting was not needed as much. They still had Steve Kerr though, one of the greatest 3pt shooters of all time.

The Celtics can play with Rondo because Pierce, Allen, and Garnett are extremely good shooters. Pierce is a career 40% 3pt shooter, Ray Allen is one of the best of all time, and Garnett is an elite mid-range shooter, one of the best.

man, i go on a 5 day beachhouse with my mates and this happens...

damn, im glad i didnt have to sit and watch through this junk...

we're still technically the same 27-13 team + gasol

maybe its time to dial it in and start conserving energy for the playoffs, get kobe to fix his pinky and allow him to properly rest his knees...