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I will try this again without any mention of the back up plan (ie trade talk). I moreso wanted to discuss why we aren't starting Lamar at SF. So now we can discuss this.

I am feeling much better about the Lakers than I did before the Boston game (as I am sure most of you are also), but there is one thing I just can't get over. If Luke Walton can start af SF for us, then why can't Lamar. Lamar is logging 26.1 MPG (excluding his one start when Pau missed a game), while we all know he can easily log 36-38 mpg. Meanwhile Bynum is averaging only 28.6, and I think he could easily go at least 35, but doesn't get to because of the minutes Gasol and Odom need at the 4/5. Why not give Lamar a shot at starting SF (while he still spells Gasol at PF), give Bynum a few more minutes, and relegate Walton and Vlad to situational reserves.

Something like this:

SF- Odom (14) / Ariza (26) / Walton and Vlad (8) (who gets the time would depend on the matchup)
PF- Gasol (25) / Odom (23) / Powell (depth)
C- Bynum (35) / Gasol (13) / Mihm (depth)

Keep in mind these minutes are based on competitive games, the actual mpg will come down due to our frequent blow out wins.

That gets Odom on the court an extra 10 minutes, and Bynum for an extra 6, and the only cost is giving Walton and or Vlad 16 less minutes a game. I am really confused as to why this isn't happening.

to answer your question- Phil Jackson prefers the Bynum, Odom, Gasol rotation at PF and Center with the starters and with the bench. beyond that nobody knows why Phil wont play the tripletowers at the same time(I suspect that they would clog the offensive paint). reguardless I would not want to question Phil on this, I think he knows what he is doing.

Not sure but I think it would be slower in the front court if we put Odom in the starting SF spot and I think it's just right to bench Odom so there's anyone who could lead the bench.

bynum isn't ready for 35 mpg. most nights its not even possible with his constant foul trouble.


i think people overrate how well lamar would do at sf. he's at his best when he's rebounding the ball and starting the fast break. he's at his best when he's faced up against a slower pf that he can drive left on. odom needs things kept simple.

Walton helps our starting like up with his passing, improved defense, and his shooting( a lot of people may know me for saying this but the guy can shoot whn he's hot). When e have Radmanovic in the starting line up out offence was good but not good enough, the ball movement wasn't there. I knomany would say that Odom can help out with the ball movemet and I'm not going to use the HE CAN'T SACE THE FLOOR line either. The only problem I see with Odom bein our starting Small Forward is that their will be no one to lead out bench mob. I know many would saythat Farmar can do it and I know he can, but I feel better with Odom in the second unit. Odom can start on any team and by him playing on the bench he can really hurt the other team's bench.

Here are the 3 point stats for our Small Forwards:

Radmanovic 45.6% ( has made 61 out of 140 thi season)
Odom 36.7%(has made 11 out of 30 this season)
Ariza 29.6% (has made 16 out of 54 this season)
Walton 26.3% (has made 5 out of 19 this season)

So its not a matter of who can space the floor for our bigs and Kobe, but its a matter of who can play defense at the Small Forward spot as well as keep the ball moving. Odom is fast enough to keep up with the faster Small forwards, but he can keep ball moving. Ariza is good on defense, but he's not as good with his passing. Radmanovic isn't good with passing or defens, he can just shoot. Walton can pass and he has steppeup his defense too. with Fisher not being a pure point guard Walton is needn the floor when Fisher is out there to make sure the ball doesn't sit on one side of the court too long.

VIPER8382 wrote:I will try this again without any mention of the back up plan (ie trade talk). I moreso wanted to discuss why we aren't starting Lamar at SF. So now we can discuss this.

I am feeling much better about the Lakers than I did before the Boston game (as I am sure most of you are also), but there is one thing I just can't get over. If Luke Walton can start af SF for us, then why can't Lamar. Lamar is logging 26.1 MPG (excluding his one start when Pau missed a game), while we all know he can easily log 36-38 mpg. Meanwhile Bynum is averaging only 28.6, and I think he could easily go at least 35, but doesn't get to because of the minutes Gasol and Odom need at the 4/5. Why not give Lamar a shot at starting SF (while he still spells Gasol at PF), give Bynum a few more minutes, and relegate Walton and Vlad to situational reserves.

Something like this:

SF- Odom (14) / Ariza (26) / Walton and Vlad (8) (who gets the time would depend on the matchup)
PF- Gasol (25) / Odom (23) / Powell (depth)
C- Bynum (35) / Gasol (13) / Mihm (depth)

Keep in mind these minutes are based on competitive games, the actual mpg will come down due to our frequent blow out wins.

That gets Odom on the court an extra 10 minutes, and Bynum for an extra 6, and the only cost is giving Walton and or Vlad 16 less minutes a game. I am really confused as to why this isn't happening.

And why you want Bynum and Odom playing 35+ minutes? Having a long rotation that enables to give more rest to your players is the best can happen, i'd wish Kobe or Gasol could play 30-31 minutes per game instead of 35, this is a long season.

I think it has alot more to do with what these guys said about the rest.
I believe they will not be trading Odom and they will go to that lineup 5-15 games before the season ends and into the playoffs.
Clearly the Lakers would be faster not slower cause Odom is faster then Walton and more athletic. The paint being clogged I don't buy because Gasol steps out alot as does Odom and it's easy to clear on the Odom drives. Anything Walton can do Odom can do.
Clearly Odom off the bench is not his best suit and clearly in the playoffs Bynum will get more burn. Lets not forget he is coming off an injury. Odom has been healthy lately to but he isn't exactly an ironman.

Odom at the three in the triangle has never been a good fit. Everybody knows that. But that doesn't mean that he's expendable. Phil probably used to play him at the four partially because it's an easier spot to learn, plus, his rebounding was sorely needed before we had the duo of Gasol and Bynum up front. Add to that all the intangibles he brings to the game and he is indeed worthy of starting even on this current team.

He deserves bigger minutes, but I don't think that he should get more minutes from Luke and Vlad at this point. Luke and Vlad need to get up to speed, so we can save Odom's legs and health for the playoffs, where I'm sure we will see Odom logging heavier minutes. The season is 82 games long, and Phil is a master at gauging his teams' for over the course of a full season. I trust Phil more than any other living coach as far as that's concerned. He always has his teams peaking at the right time, and he tightens his rotations very well — when it's time, and that's not just yet.

Now, since Bynum and Gasol take care of the defensive rebounding for our starters, it makes a whole lot of sense to utilize Odom's god given strengths — a more free and open court style game — within the second unit, which is a much better fit for that style of game. By doing so, Phil is optimizing the use of Odom's talents while saving his legs for the playoffs.

Additionally, with Odom coming off the bench, we have two out of Gasol, Bynum and Odom on the floor for 48 minutes. This forces the opposing coaches to go outside of what they would prefer to do, and they're forced to log heavy minutes for their starters and they get all out of sync playing rotations that would maybe not play that much together unless they were forced to. It makes us the aggressor before the game has even started. This has been discussed over and over.

Personally, I don't see what the big gripe is with Odom. The guy is a legit starter, yet enough of a team player to take on a diminished role for the better of the team — coming off the bench in a contract year. Talk about sacrifice. Run that by Artest or S-Jax.

Instead of shooting the pianist, I think we should all instead salute Odom for being so extremely loyal to his team, something that's not too common these days. This type of stuff builds collective character and it inspires willingness to make sacrifices for each other, especially amongst our younger players. It makes for a strong camaraderie culture.

Happy New Year, Odom! I hope there will be a ring waiting for you in the fall of 2009. It would be very well deserved.

Odom strenght is with he ball in his hands, this will hurt the starting unit, since Kobe is best with it.

I don't think that Odom can keep up with the good SF's in the league (who can). Not because he isn't fast enough but it's not just about being fast, Pierce isn't all that fast but i don't think LO's lateral movement will keep him from fouling them so much.

The Lakers ideal 3 (any teams ideal 3 actually) is someone athletic, that can shoot to space the floor, defend the opponents 3, and still move the ball. I think we can live with someone who can do 2 of the 4. Vlad can shoot but he can't do the other 3. Walton can pass, defend if the big men behind him rotate properly, and sometimes he gets hot shooting from the corner. However Luke can throw some bricks up there to, scares me sometimes the shots he launches. LO is athletic but I do like him at the PF better taking slower 4's off the dribble. LO's shooting seems to be better the last few games, he's just been more confident launching shots and they've been going in. So if he can do that he spaces the floor nicely. I'm not too sure about LO's passing, sometimes good sometimes wtf was that.

I think Phil is trying to conserve the playing time until the playoff's. I actually like how the team is playing without Farmar. In the last 3 games the Lakers TO's have been pretty damn good.

Against the Hornets 11 TO's
Against the Celtics 11 TO's
Against the Warriors 16 TO's

That's what I'm talking about. I think the Warriors game the Lakers scored 130 pts and there were so many extra possessions so there were more TO's. But I think Jordan has been too careless with the ball, the triangle cuts that down and so does Waltons presence in the starting lineup......

Dexmor wrote:I think it has alot more to do with what these guys said about the rest.
I believe they will not be trading Odom and they will go to that lineup 5-15 games before the season ends and into the playoffs.
Clearly the Lakers would be faster not slower cause Odom is faster then Walton and more athletic. The paint being clogged I don't buy because Gasol steps out alot as does Odom and it's easy to clear on the Odom drives. Anything Walton can do Odom can do.
Clearly Odom off the bench is not his best suit and clearly in the playoffs Bynum will get more burn. Lets not forget he is coming off an injury. Odom has been healthy lately to but he isn't exactly an ironman.

This is very rear I agreed with you until you said that Odom coming off the bench doesn't suit him. With Odom coming off the bench he has the ball in his hands even more and the tempo that the Lakers' second unit play at suits him. The reason Odom can be in the starting line up is because Bryant needs the ball just as much as Odom, so them on the floor at once can only work for so long. This is where Walton comes in at, he allows the ball to keep moving at all times and makes sure that the ball doesn't stay on one side of the court to long. Odom is also the leader of our bench mob and he's the best player for the job as well. Walton is more of a half court player, Radmanovic don't really have what it take to lead the bench. Odom can bring the ball up, and don't have to defer to Bryant, or anybody at all. Odom is better for the second unit because of its pace. Walton is better for the starting unit because of his high basketball IQ, his passing, and and his defense.

because walton can go off hand and make the layup. he can shoot, albeit not a great shooter, but does seem to have a consistency than lamar when the ball is rotated to him on the perimeter. and if theres one thing jax can do, he can find ones role and purpose. lamars purpose is on the bench, and contributing from there.

I think if we had a solid "backup" PF/C to fill in for Drew and Pau, then we'd see a little more of Lamar at the three. Because we don't (or Phil's lack of confidence in our players), Lamar is the one who has to do it.

I guarantee you if we had a solid backup in the front court, you'd see more Lamar on the wing.

Either way, I still get the feeling that he's possibly saving this lineup. I wonder if this lineup ever practices together in scrimmages or something like that.

And, if Lamar starts feeling comfortable about his three point shot like he has been the past couple games, that certainly will help Phil's comfort with putting LO at the three.

Its idiotic that it hasnt happened.

IT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PRESEASON AT LEAST

Its not fair to fans or Odom that PJ goes one way or the other.

HOW CAN YOU NOT PUT THE BEST 4 LAKERS ON THE FLOOR AT THE SAME TIME WHEN ODOM IS A COMBO FORWARD

Simple IDIOTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think Phil is doing the right thing for the most part the Lakers' are tied for the best record in the NBA so what can you say really.

I would love for him to be moved for a small forward but the Lakers' can't really open up money or space because they have 3 right now in Luke, Vlad and Ariza. I think Luke or Vlad would have to be packaged to get what they need but then it comes down to what kind of salary will they take back because Bynum's big increase next year.

I think the plan is to let Lamar walk and use his money for Bynum. So, everyone says that they have to get a backup if Lamar is traded but they will be in the same boat next year because he will walk anyway. So what will be the options next year Powell,Benga. It don't make that much sense--you would think that if they have a plan next year to get a backup big then why not be proactive and trade Lamar before he walks and solve that problem and maybe put Luke and or Vlad with him to solve the log jam their.

76ers fan they should trade for a more rugged guy Reggie Evans for Radmonovic. 76ers need shooting and lakers need toughness off the bench they lost from Turiaf leaving. They still have Vujcic,Ariza,Walton. I think its ridicoulous Odom should start, or get at least 30 mpg. His numbers are the lowest they have ever been, he needs some time to make an impact and get in the grove. Lakers bench is already deep enough without putting Odom on the bench. Fisher/Kobe/Odom/Gasol/Bynum good starting 5 and 4 players on the starting lineup who are all-star calibar. It's talent wise stupid, and its not like Odom is the ideal bench player.

I think Odom at his best, when he is confident in his role starting like he should. He would play better guarding Peirce in the finals then Vlad. The lakers have a glutten of small forwards Vlad,Luke Walton,Ariza,Odom.

A lot of you guys are acting like we have a senior citizen team here. I agree rest is important, but there are a few things you are overlooking.

1- With the talent level our team has (and on court with that projected rotation it gets even better by giving Odom and Bynum more minutes) we will have a lot of blow out wins. Remember those mpg I listed in the first post are for games that last 48 minutes, not a season average. There will be a lot of games that the main Lakers will log 6-10 less minutes than those projections due to huge leads.

2- I keep hearing "we need Odom to lead the 2nd unit". I don't know if I am missing something or not, but I recall Odom leading the 2nd unit quite a bit in previous seasons even though he started. Through last season Lamar had averaged 38.5 mpg as a Laker, so we don't have to choose between Lamar Odom starting SF, or Lamar Odom 2nd string PF / and leader of the bench. We can have our cake and eat it too, he can do both.

3- The final mpg avg.
In my projections we have:
Gasol = 38
Odom = 37
Bynum = 35
In reality, the rest during blow outs would probably bring it down to:
Gasol = 34-36
Odom = 33-35
Bynum = 31-33
I don't see that as anything that would extend any of them beyong their means or cause injuries. Injuries may happen, but those mpg for those players aren't the type that would cause fatique related injuries. Some may disagree, but I feel switching to this rotation increases our on court talent level to the point that we could see an increase of 25-50% more games where we basically win the game by the end of the third, and if I am right those mpg's could drop even more. That would once again allow us to have our cake and eat it too (we could have our more talented lineups on the court at all times that matter, and still get a lot of rest for our key players).

Just a couple more quick facts, we are undefeated when Bynum logs at least 33 minutes, and have only lost once when Odom got at least 30 minutes. I don't see how a plan to get these 2 more minutes that matter can be viewed as anything other than great.

the biggest strength of this tema is the big men rotation, we can go all the game with two of gasol, bynum and odom thats too much to handle for most teams.
And finally we have a lot of players we can use so i dont want to see many minutes to our key players mare than 35 mpg is something that nobody in this team should play

mecxi2000 wrote:the biggest strength of this tema is the big men rotation, we can go all the game with two of gasol, bynum and odom thats too much to handle for most teams.
And finally we have a lot of players we can use so i dont want to see many minutes to our key players mare than 35 mpg is something that nobody in this team should play

I really don't understand what your point was with this whole comment. Let me clarify, I agree with all of it, but don't see it's relevance as related to this conversation. Once you factor in the blowout wins, the only players in our front court who would be averaging 35-36 under my rotation idea would be Odom and Gasol. That is actually less than Gasol is averaging for the season, and a few minutes less than Odom's career average with the Lakers. Also in my rotation the Lakers would always have 2 of Gasol, Bynum, and Odom on the court during any non blow out game time, so I am not sure why that was brought up.