RealGM

On the Espn assist leaders page there is a stats column Ast/TO..http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaassists&league=nba&sort=asts&season=2009

In my opinion this is a bad way of measuring a persons playmaking ability..

the better way is Assist minus Turn over..

A guy with 10 assist and 4 turn overs would have same ratio as a guy with 5 assist and 2 turn overs..

Where as a Ast-TO would give 6 and 3 which clearly makes shows the guy with diff of 6 the better play maker..

i cant believe with all the experts ESPN has at its disposal they come up with some garbage statistic..

that is why it's referred to as BSPN around here

Uh.. It's not a bad stat at all. You don't judge a player's passing ability by their ast/turn ratio ONLY.

It is a meaningless stat as shown in my example.. Espn should change the stat to Ast - TO which is a true indicator of who makes a more positive contribution in terms of playmaking with out losing the ball...

Speedlot wrote:Uh.. It's not a bad stat at all. You don't judge a player's passing ability by their ast/turn ratio ONLY.

A/TO isn't a new stat by any means. It's been around for a loooong time.

I think it's a better stat than A - TO. I don't think A/TO on it's own is a good measure for play making though, as I don't think any one statistic can give you enough to fully analyze a performance.

What I do think needs to be adjusted is that we take out the TOs that occur because of ball handling. The ratio should be A / BAD PASSES.

(And everyone who use statistics that are based on ratios should account for volume, opportunities etc.)

I don't think it's a bad stat but I do think it's misleading.

for example: calderon is revered for his high assist to turnover ratio but if you watch him play, he's not really much of a playmaker. i've seen games where there is a potential good play and he won't take the chance by trying to make a more difficult pass. he plays conservatively and usually only makes the sure pass. his assist to TO is 8-to-2 (4-to-1)

nash on the other hand does make those efforts to thread the needle and makes some spectacular passes. his assist to TO is almost 9-to-3 (3-to-1).

I'd rather have a passer like Nash.

The assist is also a bit overrated since some players like Paul and James have it in their hands 90 percent of the shot clock, especially Paul. I don't blame this but in a system like the triangle, it moves around a lot to a lot of players and this may explain Kobe's lack of assists.

a more up-tempo system like D'antoni's also increases assist numbers and you also need good jump shooters as well to help out in assists.

this conversation can go on for awhile.

tkb wrote:What I do think needs to be adjusted is that we take out the TOs that occur because of ball handling. The ratio should be A / BAD PASSES.

My thoughts exactly. Not to mention turnovers that come as result of offensive fouls. A/TO isn't a bad stat, it's just extremely flawed(as is any stat).

Here is a link that actually shows assists to passing turnovers. Albeit old, it still gives you an idea how differently the stats look when you remove all the other forms of TOs.