Kobe in the post

Boognish · Post #1 » by **Boognish** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:00 am

Kobe has been incredibly efficient this season, scoring 33 ppg on an awesome FG% of .500 (I know we're only 8 games in, but that's still 1/10 of the season). I think its pretty obvious that this can be attributed to him setting up shop in the post (remember how he shat on OJ Mayo, going in the post over and over). I've felt that Kobe's shot selection over his career has been sometimes questionable and love the high efficiency approach he is now taking.

I understand that Kobe is largely in the post because of the void created by Pau and Drew this season, but is this part of a larger trend? I expected Kobe to progressively reel his game closer to the basket as he wore down, a la Jordan, but this is incredibly abrupt. (Kobe averaged between 4 and 6 3PA per game the last 5 years; this year, he's averaging less than 2 attempts)

I know that Kobe will have to spend some more time on the wing when the Big Spaniard returns, but is there any reason why he can't maintain a significant portion of his post presence? Is there room for Kobe in the post, or will he have to return to triple clutching 20-foot fall-away js? I feel like there is a happy medium that he could adopt but am not so sure he will.

Thoughts?

That Nicka · Post #2 » by **That Nicka** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:36 am

What I love about it is that our opponents are constantly in the penalty. Kobe draws so many easy fouls now -- many before he even gets the ball down there.

Another thing is it's almost impossible to double Kobe in the post because we usually have Fisher/Artest spreading the floor and Odom/Bynum cutting. If you double Kobe you will give up and open 3 or a dunk to the bigs.

Having Artest means that Kobe will nearly always be guarded by SGs. Our opponents are hesitant to put bigger SFs on Kobe because then Artest can post up their SG -- where he is good at drawing fouls as well. Kobe has the post up advantage over just about every single SG in the league so he is truly unguardable in the post.

Lovin this team so far.

Dr Aki · Post #3 » by **Dr Aki** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:56 am

the real question is, how do we keep kobe in the post, even when pau returns to the starting lineup?? its one thing having lamar bring the ball up and play point, its another when you have gasol and bynum sitting on both strongside and weakside lowpost positions...

one thing is clear, kobe is absolutely ripping it up in the post, and hes doing it as a big man on big man efficiency, if it werent for the lakers absolute glut of frontcourt talent, id have him stationed there all game, the rest of his career...

maybe someone with triangle know-how can illustrate the many plays that will somehow utilise the triumvirate of kobe, pau and bynum, all posting all up, all with options to pass, and artest/fish to snipe 3s when need be...

speaking of which, the artest signing has absolutely opened up a world of hurt to opponents, especially opposing SGs. the variety and versatility of post-ups, the interior passing, bigs running cuts, its almost like the triangle was designed for this very team to mow down opponents with...

Post #4 » by **snaquille oatmeal** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:55 pm

the answer is easy- get Pau or Bynum involved in the first six minutes of the game, then send Bynum to the bench, move Pau to the 5 and thus you create the hole for Kobe to work in the post. from this point on play either Pau or Bynum, but not both. problem solved.

tracey_nice · Post #5 » by **tracey_nice** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:11 pm

I love it. This is awesome.

JustBlaze · Post #6 » by **JustBlaze** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:57 pm

I am liking Kobe's post play as well. As far Gasol is concerned...His jumpshot is good enough that he can do damage from the high post while Kobe is working down low.

Like if Kobe has the ball in the post with Bynum on the weakside post, Gasol hanging out right around the free throw line on either side would be perfect. If Gasol's guy leaves to double Kobe, Gasol will be wide open for a 15 foot catch and shoot. If Bynum's guy comes to double Kobe has the passing skills to get him the ball for a dunk/lay-up

TonyMontana · Post #7 » by **TonyMontana** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:09 pm

snaquille oatmeal wrote:the answer is easy- get Pau or Bynum involved in the first six minutes of the game, then send Bynum to the bench, move Pau to the 5 and thus you create the hole for Kobe to work in the post. from this point on play either Pau or Bynum, but not both. problem solved.

I agree Snaq, but isnt this amazing?

We have so many options and choices specially in the post now to run our offense that we actually have to eliminate certain players roles and p.t so we dont disrupt our offense or the float of the game as well as keep everyone happy.
You remember when our only option was Kobe and then Lamar. How things change for the better when you have a H.O.F coach and a good G.M like Mitch.

Sedale Threatt · Post #8 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:16 pm

snaquille oatmeal wrote:the answer is easy- get Pau or Bynum involved in the first six minutes of the game, then send Bynum to the bench, move Pau to the 5 and thus you create the hole for Kobe to work in the post. from this point on play either Pau or Bynum, but not both. problem solved.

Exactly. Phil needs to stagger minutes so one of our bigs is anchoring that second unit. They could use a focal point. I wouldn't surprise to see Pau coming off the bench for a few weeks as he works his way into game shape. He's not going to be going 40 minutes right off the bat. After that, I wouldn't mind Andrew being the guy. He can shoot all he wants with that crew.

///

What I like most about Kobe's last three or four games is that he's going right up with his shots. No fakes, no dribbling, no wasted energy. Not used to seeing him be that efficient. Once he gets good position, all the hard work his done; he just needs to rise up and sink a 10 or 12 footer. He can do that in his sleep.

fareweatherfan · Post #9 » by **fareweatherfan** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:18 pm

That Nicka wrote:Having Artest means that Kobe will nearly always be guarded by SGs. Our opponents are hesitant to put bigger SFs on Kobe because then Artest can post up their SG -- where he is good at drawing fouls as well. Kobe has the post up advantage over just about every single SG in the league so he is truly unguardable in the post.

This is the ONLY reason we are seeing Kobe in the post so much this year, compared to past years. Phil basically says to every opposing coach..."We're getting good looks at the basket, but I'll let you decide who's taking them."

Wait until our 7ft mid-range shooter comes back, it'll be ridiculous 8-)

Tee212 · Post #10 » by **Tee212** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:32 pm

Artest being here has nothing to do with kobe in the post. Kobe always plays oj or shane on the block as other sf/sg, but this year hes making it a point to post defenders and force a double team. His fadeway 10footers and non existent 3p attempts is totally increasing his overalll fg%. However Artest is effecting the games in ways the that fans with the untrained eyes will not notice. Hes been breaking up plays forcing turn overs in which he gets no credit for the "steals", he spreads the floor for kobe on the entry pass yanoo...all the lil things...just his ft % is crap.

fareweatherfan · Post #11 » by **fareweatherfan** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:55 pm

Tee212 wrote:Artest being here has nothing to do with kobe in the post.

Sorry bud, you're dead wrong.

TonyMontana · Post #12 » by **TonyMontana** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:25 pm

fareweatherfan wrote:
Tee212 wrote:Artest being here has nothing to do with kobe in the post.

Sorry bud, you're dead wrong.

Not completely wrong, he does make a few good points.

fareweatherfan · Post #13 » by **fareweatherfan** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:27 pm

TonyMontana wrote:
fareweatherfan wrote:
Tee212 wrote:Artest being here has nothing to do with kobe in the post.

Sorry bud, you're dead wrong.

Not completely wrong, he does make a few good points.

Actually he makes some great points, but to say Kobe being in the post has NOTHING to do with Artest is just dead wrong.

Boognish · Post #14 » by **Boognish** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:59 pm

snaquille oatmeal wrote:the answer is easy- get Pau or Bynum involved in the first six minutes of the game, then send Bynum to the bench, move Pau to the 5 and thus you create the hole for Kobe to work in the post. from this point on play either Pau or Bynum, but not both. problem solved.

Does this leave one of them on the bench during crunch time (likely Drew)? I'd love for Kobe to be able to go to the post in crunch time, and Pau is clutch as hell, leaving Drew out. I could see Drew being upset at this

desertlakerfan · Post #15 » by **desertlakerfan** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:59 pm

Well I seem to remember a certain spaniard having excellent shooting touch from about 20 feet out. Who says we'll need Pau in the post with the starting unit when he returns? Kobe and Bynum can both demand the ball in the post while Pau(and more importanly his defender) can float around the perimeter looking for chances to cut to the rim. Then when Bynum goes to the bench and we switch Pau to center he can work more of his back to the basket game in.

Hell our starting lineup is made up entirely of people who can post up effectively. If our opponents have a weakness at any position we should be able to exploit it in the post to try and force double teams. Our offensive system is set up so we can have any position be the post up focus, even Fisher when he's going against those small quick point guards.

I see Kobe being able to continue with his post up game plan until teams figure out ways to stop it that don't involve doubling.

TonyMontana · Post #16 » by **TonyMontana** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:04 pm

fareweatherfan wrote:
Actually he makes some great points, but to say Kobe being in the post has NOTHING to do with Artest is just dead wrong.

Ya that I can agree with you.
I disagreed with "year hes making it a point to post defenders and force a double team" I think Kobe has done this since he came to LA but in 05 06 and 07 we really didnt see him trying to draw double teams since he didnt really feel or have trust in his teammates to finish, but since the arrival of Ariza Pau and the fact that he now has guys around him that can finish has givin him the ability to draw the double team and have players like Lamar cutting in and feeding off of Kobe's double.

I loved watching that last night, those two back to back plays between Lamar and Kobe was done in prefection and I can't believe the Nuns couldnt defend that. In fact everyone would try to defend it but both time Dudley failed to rotate over to cover Lamar because then if he would do that it would leave Bynum free. ISNT THAT PRETTY. :lol:

supaflash · Post #17 » by **supaflash** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:12 pm

I love it, I have always really respected Kobe's post game and its nice to see. This is what the triangle did for MJ in his later years as well. Keeps him fresher longer and makes the whole team more efficient. Doug Collins pointed it out that look what it does to the opponent's SG. Sucks them under the basket so no easy break aways, gets them in foul trouble, and drains them of energy trying to battle Kobe all game long. Most SGs are not super strong so that battle wears them out much more then chasing him around on the perimeter. Look what it did to J Rich, dude has been on fire and it took him completely out of the game.

Like someone said it is nearly impossible to double him because of the options he has there. Pau won't change that, if anything he will make it even harder because he's got a better jumper then Lamar. He can still do the same cuts as LO and has the great passing ability, plus you can put the ball in more places because of his length to go get it high. I don't think it will be a problem at all, Pau is very versatile and he will adjust just fine. They play a much more distributive style with the Spanish team so he is used to it.

Artest definitely has a positive effect on Kobe in the post and the offense in general. Trev was great as a spot up shooter and as a slasher, but he didn't have the overall abilities when he caught the ball on the perimeter. With Ron, eh makes good entry passes and is always a threat to make something happen with the drive and pass along with the spot up shots and slashing. You don't realize how much that changes how a defense must focus on him. It is a very similar effect to what Pippen did for MJ. On the defensive end as well, Ron has amazingly quick and strong hands! He gets his hands on a LOT of stuff, and just him putting his body on someone has large effects to their offensive flow.

Kobe in the post is the perfect option for this team because IMO even though he is taking a lot of shots at the moment, what the rest of the team is doing while he is posted keeps them more involved then Kobe out on the perimeter. Our cuts and slashes and movement has been nice to watch at times, shows how great the triangle truly is for spacing and movement when you can have multiple post players at the same time.

Tee212 · Post #18 » by **Tee212** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:59 pm

I can agree with tonymontana saying "kobe goin to the post since 05" which solidifies what exactly is Artest doing that influences kobe in the post? im not being an ass here, can someone explain to me? all those fadeaways kobe did on players last year in the post Artest was not on the lakers. Ariza/fish/radman/brown/sasha/Artest can all dump the ball to kobe in the post as he draws the double then kick out for the 3p, or have a ariza/artest/ slash the lane for a layup. Also how is Artest helping kobe in the post when hes on the bench? Please enlighten me

btw all the hakeem helping kobes post game is a overrated imo. It just looks like normal kobe moves to me.

supaflash · Post #19 » by **supaflash** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:26 pm

Yeah, Kobe already had all this postgame and great footwork etc. I think Hakeem may have just reinforced some things and helped with some subtleties like timing, extra footwork, and handling doubles. I'm sure he learned some things, but yes he already had most of it imo.

What Artest does for Kobe's post game is hard to fully appreciate and exactly explain. Its more of what a multi-dimensional guy like him does to the overall scheme of the opponent. Not to mention the subleties of having a good passer (something that Ariza wasn't really) that gets you the ball in just a little better spot.

TonyMontana · Post #20 » by **TonyMontana** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:41 pm

supaflash wrote:Yeah, Kobe already had all this postgame and great footwork etc. I think Hakeem may have just reinforced some things and helped with some subtleties like timing, extra footwork, and handling doubles. I'm sure he learned some things, but yes he already had most of it imo .

Looks like it, but honestly I've been waiting for Kobe to show me a few off the Dreams moves but all the ish Kobe does looks like his own moves excpet I never seen him post up in the middle so much like he did last night. He was in the middle of the key a lot demanding the ball with the middle clogged up but he still managed to get the ball and make some key shots as well as getting fouled that resulted in freethrows.

Skip it, whatever works whether its the Dreams moves or Buckyjoes as long as were winning and the rest of the team is feeding off Kobes doubles I could give a hoot who's moves they are.