RFA Pirating

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

This issue has become a hot subject since the Oilers offer to Vanek and the Sabres having to match the offer...

I think that Pirating is bad for hockey and will eventually ratchet up salaries to an uncontrollable level and eventually lead to another crash in the hockey cap structure, not mention the effect on teams trying to build through the draft, many will fall to the wayside with a loss of fan base...

Suppose Sidney Crosby was offered 11 or 12 million for 7 years, this is about 3 or 4 million more than the Penguins are now trying to sign him for and lots of teams could come up with this much cap money but could the Penguins match and protect their other young talent?...

Take for example my favorite Team the Leafs, we could say dump 2 salaries McCabe and Kubina, as we have a lot of defencemen and so they would not be too missed, then have enough cap space to sign Crosby and in the process only lose 4 first rounders but get a player that would be a star and centerpiece for years to come (Players like Sidney Crosby are irreplaceable)...

Is this fair to teams that have brought young players up through their system at a pretty hefty cost, only to lose them because of cap structure and trying to protect other young players. I think Buffalo has paid a huge price to keep Vanek, by already losing Briere and Drury due to cap restraint...

I guess the Question is, should it be allowed, or can we control it or let it continue as is?...

Ideas or Arguments...

[timd1218]

I don't think there is anything wrong with doing this.

If anyone is to blame on the Vanek situation, it is Darcy Reigher. Why wasn't Vanek signed before. If he just did that, this whole situation would not have occured. Look what Ray Shero has done with Ryan Whitney. He signed him before his RFA time came. He's doing the same with Crosby. That's what good GM's do. They sign their potential RFA's before they become RFA's.

You don't have to sign all your RFA's before they become RFA's because not all of them will command a crap load of money. Just the superstar ones.

Plus, Crosby couldn't be signed to 12-13 million a season. He can only make 20% of the cap which would be 10 million right now.

If anything will destroy the new CBA, it will be the UFA. Daniel Briere is making the same amount of money as Joe Thornton. Thornton is so much better than Briere. It's these big market teams that can throw 7 million to Gomez and Briere. When in reality, they aren't worth that much money.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

I don't think there is anything wrong with doing this.

If anyone is to blame on the Vanek situation, it is Darcy Reigher. Why wasn't Vanek signed before. If he just did that, this whole situation would not have occured. Look what Ray Shero has done with Ryan Whitney. He signed him before his RFA time came. He's doing the same with Crosby. That's what good GM's do. They sign their potential RFA's before they become RFA's.

You don't have to sign all your RFA's before they become RFA's because not all of them will command a crap load of money. Just the superstar ones.

Plus, Crosby couldn't be signed to 12-13 million a season. He can only make 20% of the cap which would be 10 million right now.

If anything will destroy the new CBA, it will be the UFA. Daniel Briere is making the same amount of money as Joe Thornton. Thornton is so much better than Briere. It's these big market teams that can throw 7 million to Gomez and Briere. When in reality, they aren't worth that much money.

Ya forgot about the 10% of the cap rule but next year if the cap rises it is not too far out of the realm of possibility but even at 10 million it is still a large cap hit and if you add players like Malkin and Staal that are as good as Vanek, and become RFA's in subsequent years, if they are offered big contracts young teams like the Penguins are going to feel the squeeze in their ability to retain young good players, teams will be greatly hampered.

Resigning young players is difficult before they become RFA's ,Agents are going to get as much as they possibly can and can argue that the player they represent will be worth top dollar and will hold out to RFA. Will Crosby and his agent accept 8 million per being offered or hold out for the 10 % cap rule, I know if I were his Agent, I certaily would. Maybe Reigher tried to sign Vanek but couldn't till another team set the price...

You make a good point and one that Edmonton is experiencing. Players not wanting to go to your team for whatever reason and not being able to attract big players can spell the end. This is the reason the Oilers made an offer to Vanek having lost out on the Nylander sweepstakes add to that the Pronger deal from last year and because all teams have equal cap, they have to start Pirating to get good players and can offer big contracts. Thornton stayed with his team because he wanted to stay with a winner and liked where he was, so signed at a discount to be there...

Edmonton, had they known what the cap would be, would have signed Ryan Smyth, Buffalo maybe could have resigned one or two of their free agents too...

My understanding of how they determine the cap, is the total of all the teams revenues less their overhead and profit margins and other factors, then it is dispersed equally among all the teams, revenue sharing, so that all teams have the same cap to get players. This year it went up a lot because projection was for 47 to 48 million but in the end it was set at 50 plus million and that figure was set before free agency but after the trade deadline...

further to the cap determination this article caught my eye and points out other problems with high contracts and poorer teams...
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=8527

[MAS]

The best thing i can think of right now is all is fair in love and war

[timd1218]

[quote="Tor-Rap-Tor"][/quote]

I don't think it would be difficult to sign RFA's. It all depends on how much you offer them. It seemed as if Shero signed Whitney pretty easily. He's only making 4 million a season and will probably be one of the best offensive d-men in the game in a few years.

It also depends on the type of player it is and if they like the city or not. Whitney loves the city and the team so he was willing to sign now instead of waiting until next year and probably making 2-3 million more. Crosby is the same way. He wants to win so I personally could see him taking 8 million instead of 10.


About keeping Malkin and Staal. Doesn't necessarily have to happen. Depends on what the players what. And I don't think it is a bad situation for the Pens to be in with all this young talent. Say Malkin wants 8 million a season when he becomes an RFA. Say Shero won't pay him that much and a team offers him that. It's bad the Pens lose him, but they will get 4 first round picks, plus they will have that money to sign a UFA.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

First of all "timd1218" I don't disagree with your posts, they are very valid points and it comes down to opinion and speculating...

Just a few facts as I see it...

Young RFA's will hold back signing because if Pirating becomes a norm, they and their agents know, that other players will have signed for x dollars from other teams and they too can get big bucks ("show me the money!")...

Draft choices that other teams will be giving up are not going to be in the lottery part of the draft and may mostly be in fact in the latter stages say picking 20 to 30, where it is much harder to get a prized young player that can become outstanding at their position. (I would gladly give 4 first rounders for Crosby and a 10 mill stipend)...

Some teams may not be able to keep their RFA's or attract good UFA's, can they survive in the long run, when most are in a financial bind and have lost millions already?...

It'll be interesting as it is shaping up...

[UTMCretin]

How exactly is it pirating? The usage implies robbery, which clearly isn't the case if the team who owns the particular player's rights can match any offer. If the team has the option to match the contract given, then it certainly couldn't be defined as anything malicious.

Besides, you speak of restricted free agency bringing up market prices, well how is that any different from unrestricted free agency? Same basic concept of outbidding for the services of a player, only restricted free agency allows for the team to hold exclusive rights barring their decision on the player's immediate future. Which actually deters other teams from making an offer in which the likely outcome would provide no real benefit to their respective organizations. Plus, restricted free agency applies within itself a high amount of risk for bidding on a top young player. Had the Oilers actually signed Vanek, then they would have given up four future 1st round picks, a steep price to pay for a team that will in all likeliness be terrible over the coming years. If a team decides they are willing to risk that much to acquire top talent rather than take the traditional route of unrestricted free agency, then all the power to them

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

How exactly is it pirating? The usage implies robbery, which clearly isn't the case if the team who owns the particular player's rights can match any offer. If the team has the option to match the contract given, then it certainly couldn't be defined as anything malicious.

Besides, you speak of restricted free agency bringing up market prices, well how is that any different from unrestricted free agency? Same basic concept of outbidding for the services of a player, only restricted free agency allows for the team to hold exclusive rights barring their decision on the player's immediate future. Which actually deters other teams from making an offer in which the likely outcome would provide no real benefit to their respective organizations. Plus, restricted free agency applies within itself a high amount of risk for bidding on a top young player. Had the Oilers actually signed Vanek, then they would have given up four future 1st round picks, a steep price to pay for a team that will in all likeliness be terrible over the coming years. If a team decides they are willing to risk that much to acquire top talent rather than take the traditional route of unrestricted free agency, then all the power to them

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/article. ... 23010_6428

This is a fairly old thread I started a while back but the facts are now coming out with the deal the oilers just did for Penner and many are comparing it to the Daigle situation, when Ottawa over paid for him as a draft signing and that set a bench mark at the time...

I have been telling people that it rachets up the price of RFA's and this is a prime example. Now Penner is no Vanek and the cost to the oilers was minimal, 1 first, 1 second and a third but they over paid in salary to get him and now a bench mark is set and it is very high, as the article above stipulates. Agents for RFA's will ask this kind of money for their clients
and they are mediocre players at best...

Pirating is stealing and players that have been through a system, that has cost a team money to develop him and then is taken because of cap restrictions is just that, pirating, especially when a deal is made that is so high it can't be matched...

[UTMCretin]

-= original quote snipped =-



http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/article. ... 23010_6428

This is a fairly old thread I started a while back but the facts are now coming out with the deal the oilers just did for Penner and many are comparing it to the Daigle situation, when Ottawa over paid for him as a draft signing and that set a bench mark at the time...

I have been telling people that it rachets up the price of RFA's and this is a prime example. Now Penner is no Vanek and the cost to the oilers was minimal, 1 first, 1 second and a third but they over paid in salary to get him and now a bench mark is set and it is very high, as the article above stipulates. Agents for RFA's will ask this kind of money for their clients
and they are mediocre players at best...

Pirating is stealing and players that have been through a system, that has cost a team money to develop him and then is taken because of cap restrictions is just that, pirating, especially when a deal is made that is so high it can't be matched...

Oh please, this isn't an example of stealing in the least. The team who owns the RFA's rights has the right to match any offer. Which means its not a question of whether they have the choice, as it would be in a situation of piracy, but how much are they willing to pay, as in an auction? You know, kind of like unrestricted free agency.

As for the Penner situation, that's just an example of a GM trying to do whatever it takes to bring players to his team, full well knowing that his job will be on the line if he does not succeed in his task. Whether or not RFA prices will be driven upwards depends on the jobs that other GM's do in securing their talent and how arbitration will go for many other young stars. The way the league is set up is that if there is no competition for restricted free agents, then the team is pretty much in control of the negotiation processes. The mediocre players will have a hard time finding Dustin Penner money because, quite frankly, no one will actually want to pay them that. Even the Penner signing was based almost entirely on the potential of him developing into a 1st line power forward. If these mediocre players demand more money based on this isolated instances, then management should be smart enough to exercise restraint and only pay what they feel is reasonable.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

-= original quote snipped =-
Oh please, this isn't an example of stealing in the least. The team who owns the RFA's rights has the right to match any offer. Which means its not a question of whether they have the choice, as it would be in a situation of piracy, but how much are they willing to pay, as in an auction? You know, kind of like unrestricted free agency.

As for the Penner situation, that's just an example of a GM trying to do whatever it takes to bring players to his team, full well knowing that his job will be on the line if he does not succeed in his task. Whether or not RFA prices will be driven upwards depends on the jobs that other GM's do in securing their talent and how arbitration will go for many other young stars. The way the league is set up is that if there is no competition for restricted free agents, then the team is pretty much in control of the negotiation processes. The mediocre players will have a hard time finding Dustin Penner money because, quite frankly, no one will actually want to pay them that. Even the Penner signing was based almost entirely on the potential of him developing into a 1st line power forward. If these mediocre players demand more money based on this isolated instances, then management should be smart enough to exercise restraint and only pay what they feel is reasonable.

This is almost exactly like the Daigle signing and is Daigle a household name? He never developed into anything other than a mediocre player but his signing at the time set a standard that first round draft picks were demanding and helped in fact in the lockout that occured a few years ago and prompted the league to set signing standards for draft picks...

UFA's are different, teams know if a player is going to free agency and whether or not they can afford to keep him under the cap, if not, they then can look around and pick up an UFA to fill his spot for less money or promote from within but when another team comes along and pays one of your RFA's 10 times what he was being paid, making it impossible for you to match, thats a different story and to do this on potential is crazy and only ratchets up prices...

If the league sets a standard for salary increases for RFA's say at 3 or 4 times their current salary or less with exceptions for outstanding players like Sid the Kid, then perhaps something like this will work and teams can plan to either keep or possibly lose a player to free agency unless they re-up him...

Does anyone want another lockout or worse still another league from coming into exsistance and stealing UFA's and RFA's (players not under contract) because teams are capped out... Can we say WHA?...

[Crowned]

Let's break down the term to start; Restricted Free Agent. Key term is 'free agent'. When a player is available on the open market as a free agent, restricted or not, teams should feel free to make offers. If a team decides not to offer a contract to that particular player, and allows him to become a RFA, then they're up for grabs to the highest bidder as far as I'm concerned. If the Leafs allowed Wellwood or Steen to become a RFA next summer, and lost them to another team, I'd feel more anger towards management than I would to the team making the particular offer.

By allowing a RFA to sign elsewhere, you realize you're about to recieve some form of compensation. I think teams allow players to become RFA's in some cases so they can see what they're about to recieve in terms of compensation, and I truly believe Burke did just that with Penner. If he desperately wanted Penner in a Ducks uniform, he would've been in a Ducks uniform. He would've passed on 'Tuzzi, signed Penner to a similar contract and spent money elsewhere. Personally, at his stage in his career, I'd much rather have Penner than Bertuzzi, based on psychological reasons as well. Bertuzzi has the talent to become the player he once was, but I think his head is getting in the way.

If Lowe wants to overpay for a player, and send 3 draft picks to another team in the process, then that's his problem. Lowe overpaid contract wise, but again, if Burke wanted Penner back as a Duck, he would've matched. The contract isn't unmanageable, and I think Burke wants that Edmonton first round pick in hopes of another losing season, especially in such a deep draft.

[Griff83]

Let's break down the term to start; Restricted Free Agent. Key term is 'free agent'. When a player is available on the open market as a free agent, restricted or not, teams should feel free to make offers. If a team decides not to offer a contract to that particular player, and allows him to become a RFA, then they're up for grabs to the highest bidder as far as I'm concerned. If the Leafs allowed Wellwood or Steen to become a RFA next summer, and lost them to another team, I'd feel more anger towards management than I would to the team making the particular offer.

By allowing a RFA to sign elsewhere, you realize you're about to recieve some form of compensation. I think teams allow players to become RFA's in some cases so they can see what they're about to recieve in terms of compensation, and I truly believe Burke did just that with Penner. If he desperately wanted Penner in a Ducks uniform, he would've been in a Ducks uniform. He would've passed on 'Tuzzi, signed Penner to a similar contract and spent money elsewhere. Personally, at his stage in his career, I'd much rather have Penner than Bertuzzi, based on psychological reasons as well. Bertuzzi has the talent to become the player he once was, but I think his head is getting in the way.

If Lowe wants to overpay for a player, and send 3 draft picks to another team in the process, then that's his problem. Lowe overpaid contract wise, but again, if Burke wanted Penner back as a Duck, he would've matched. The contract isn't unmanageable, and I think Burke wants that Edmonton first round pick in hopes of another losing season, especially in such a deep draft.

Lowe didnt really overpay, look at what players like Hartnell, Handzus, Lang, Nagy got this offseason and id say Penner is easily as good as those players mentioned currently.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

Let's break down the term to start; Restricted Free Agent. Key term is 'free agent'. When a player is available on the open market as a free agent, restricted or not, teams should feel free to make offers. If a team decides not to offer a contract to that particular player, and allows him to become a RFA, then they're up for grabs to the highest bidder as far as I'm concerned. If the Leafs allowed Wellwood or Steen to become a RFA next summer, and lost them to another team, I'd feel more anger towards management than I would to the team making the particular offer.

By allowing a RFA to sign elsewhere, you realize you're about to recieve some form of compensation. I think teams allow players to become RFA's in some cases so they can see what they're about to recieve in terms of compensation, and I truly believe Burke did just that with Penner. If he desperately wanted Penner in a Ducks uniform, he would've been in a Ducks uniform. He would've passed on 'Tuzzi, signed Penner to a similar contract and spent money elsewhere. Personally, at his stage in his career, I'd much rather have Penner than Bertuzzi, based on psychological reasons as well. Bertuzzi has the talent to become the player he once was, but I think his head is getting in the way.

If Lowe wants to overpay for a player, and send 3 draft picks to another team in the process, then that's his problem. Lowe overpaid contract wise, but again, if Burke wanted Penner back as a Duck, he would've matched. The contract isn't unmanageable, and I think Burke wants that Edmonton first round pick in hopes of another losing season, especially in such a deep draft.

Your not seeing the picture here...

It's not the fact they are restricted free agents and can be offered a contract by any team in the league and claimed if a team decides not to match, it's the fact that over paying for a player, thats at question here.
You mentioned Wellwood and Steen becoming free agents this coming year now what exactly is their worth?...

Suppose JFJ offers Wellwood 3 mill per and his agent says we'll get back to you knowing a player like Penner signed for 4 mill plus per with Oilers, now he goes out to other teams and says make us an offer, so one team offers him 21.5 mill over 5 years and we have to match to keep him and then sign Steen and his agent, does the same thing, now if we sign both, a player like Sundin and other players will have to be dropped so we can stay under the cap, players like Wellwood and Steen are not worth more than 3 mill a year at the outside but because Penner got big bucks and they are better players arguably or in the mind of their agents anyway, they want the big bucks and who can blame them, even a bidding war can occur further ratcheting up prices...

The price of hockey has gone up!...

How could you blame a GM even JFJ if the scenario above plays out and we lost one of Wellwood or Steen and got back mid round 1st 2nd and 3rd picks in the year 2009 that may not have any outstanding players at least in that range (which further points out what a great deal JFJ did getting Toskala and Bell for the same picks)...

That is a far out scenario but it points out what can happen when you Max out teams trying to retain players with potential and should it happen they can't have another lockout because that would be a real boon to a new league should one start (see Jim Balsillie)?...

[timd1218]

Let's break down the term to start; Restricted Free Agent. Key term is 'free agent'. When a player is available on the open market as a free agent, restricted or not, teams should feel free to make offers. If a team decides not to offer a contract to that particular player, and allows him to become a RFA, then they're up for grabs to the highest bidder as far as I'm concerned. If the Leafs allowed Wellwood or Steen to become a RFA next summer, and lost them to another team, I'd feel more anger towards management than I would to the team making the particular offer.

By allowing a RFA to sign elsewhere, you realize you're about to recieve some form of compensation. I think teams allow players to become RFA's in some cases so they can see what they're about to recieve in terms of compensation, and I truly believe Burke did just that with Penner. If he desperately wanted Penner in a Ducks uniform, he would've been in a Ducks uniform. He would've passed on 'Tuzzi, signed Penner to a similar contract and spent money elsewhere. Personally, at his stage in his career, I'd much rather have Penner than Bertuzzi, based on psychological reasons as well. Bertuzzi has the talent to become the player he once was, but I think his head is getting in the way.

If Lowe wants to overpay for a player, and send 3 draft picks to another team in the process, then that's his problem. Lowe overpaid contract wise, but again, if Burke wanted Penner back as a Duck, he would've matched. The contract isn't unmanageable, and I think Burke wants that Edmonton first round pick in hopes of another losing season, especially in such a deep draft.

Your not seeing the picture here...

It's not the fact they are restricted free agents and can be offered a contract by any team in the league and claimed if a team decides not to match, it's the fact that over paying for a player, thats at question here.
You mentioned Wellwood and Steen becoming free agents this coming year now what exactly is their worth?...

Suppose JFJ offers Wellwood 3 mill per and his agent says we'll get back to you knowing a player like Penner signed for 4 mill plus per with Oilers, now he goes out to other teams and says make us an offer, so one team offers him 21.5 mill over 5 years and we have to match to keep him and then sign Steen and his agent, does the same thing, now if we sign both, a player like Sundin and other players will have to be dropped so we can stay under the cap, players like Wellwood and Steen are not worth more than 3 mill a year at the outside but because Penner got big bucks and they are better players arguably or in the mind of their agents anyway, they want the big bucks and who can blame them, even a bidding war can occur further ratcheting up prices...

The price of hockey has gone up!...

How could you blame a GM even JFJ if the scenario above plays out and we lost one of Wellwood or Steen and got back mid round 1st 2nd and 3rd picks in the year 2009 that may not have any outstanding players at least in that range (which further points out what a great deal JFJ did getting Toskala and Bell for the same picks)...

That is a far out scenario but it points out what can happen when you Max out teams trying to retain players with potential and should it happen they can't have another lockout because that would be a real boon to a new league should one start (see Jim Balsillie)?...

Players waiting out to see what they can get are players you don't want on a team.

Most players, team players, won't do that. Crosby could have done that and got the max. He's a team player, he didn't do that. Parise just signed for 3 million a season and he is more valuable then Penner. Penner didn't have a choice with his contract because Anaheim probably didn't offer him a contract before this happened.

If Steen and Wellwood think they're worth 4 million, they have something coming to them. Penner scored nearly 30 goals playing on the 3rd line in Anaheim and not seeing much PP time. He'll be on the top line in Edmonton so he should get 40 goals.

I don't agree with signing an RFA, but I can understand it from both points of view. It does have benefits to teams with a lot of young talent who won't be able to sign some of those players.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

-= original quote snipped =-



Players waiting out to see what they can get are players you don't want on a team.

Most players, team players, won't do that. Crosby could have done that and got the max. He's a team player, he didn't do that. Parise just signed for 3 million a season and he is more valuable then Penner. Penner didn't have a choice with his contract because Anaheim probably didn't offer him a contract before this happened.

If Steen and Wellwood think they're worth 4 million, they have something coming to them. Penner scored nearly 30 goals playing on the 3rd line in Anaheim and not seeing much PP time. He'll be on the top line in Edmonton so he should get 40 goals.

I don't agree with signing an RFA, but I can understand it from both points of view. It does have benefits to teams with a lot of young talent who won't be able to sign some of those players.

I agree ...

I think both Wellwood and Steen will sign here for the right price but also remember Sid resigned with an exciting young team in which be is their leader and outstanding player and is revered as the next coming of Mario, he is treated as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Endorsements alone there, could net him 10 times what he could make anywhere else so don't Kid yourself Money in Salary is not the principle reason for his staying there...

Parise now, maybe Lowe offered him a contract or maybe not but it seems to me he went after Penner because he knew the ducks wouldn't or couldn't match and was Parise offered a deal by any other team who knows and to a certain degree he is similar to Sid and plays on a very good team with an outstanding goalie, endorsements may not be as much there for him but that is a solid team that has some great young talent that could go far into the play-offs...

The fact remains the price of Hockey has gone up. The standard has been set...

To the First part of your post you wouldn't want players that would move for a few extra bucks and this may be the reason why Russian players are not as sought after as North American Players because of their greedy tendencies RE: Cherepanov in this years draft...

[Crowned]

Let's break down the term to start; Restricted Free Agent. Key term is 'free agent'. When a player is available on the open market as a free agent, restricted or not, teams should feel free to make offers. If a team decides not to offer a contract to that particular player, and allows him to become a RFA, then they're up for grabs to the highest bidder as far as I'm concerned. If the Leafs allowed Wellwood or Steen to become a RFA next summer, and lost them to another team, I'd feel more anger towards management than I would to the team making the particular offer.

By allowing a RFA to sign elsewhere, you realize you're about to recieve some form of compensation. I think teams allow players to become RFA's in some cases so they can see what they're about to recieve in terms of compensation, and I truly believe Burke did just that with Penner. If he desperately wanted Penner in a Ducks uniform, he would've been in a Ducks uniform. He would've passed on 'Tuzzi, signed Penner to a similar contract and spent money elsewhere. Personally, at his stage in his career, I'd much rather have Penner than Bertuzzi, based on psychological reasons as well. Bertuzzi has the talent to become the player he once was, but I think his head is getting in the way.

If Lowe wants to overpay for a player, and send 3 draft picks to another team in the process, then that's his problem. Lowe overpaid contract wise, but again, if Burke wanted Penner back as a Duck, he would've matched. The contract isn't unmanageable, and I think Burke wants that Edmonton first round pick in hopes of another losing season, especially in such a deep draft.

Your not seeing the picture here...

It's not the fact they are restricted free agents and can be offered a contract by any team in the league and claimed if a team decides not to match, it's the fact that over paying for a player, thats at question here.
You mentioned Wellwood and Steen becoming free agents this coming year now what exactly is their worth?...

Suppose JFJ offers Wellwood 3 mill per and his agent says we'll get back to you knowing a player like Penner signed for 4 mill plus per with Oilers, now he goes out to other teams and says make us an offer, so one team offers him 21.5 mill over 5 years and we have to match to keep him and then sign Steen and his agent, does the same thing, now if we sign both, a player like Sundin and other players will have to be dropped so we can stay under the cap, players like Wellwood and Steen are not worth more than 3 mill a year at the outside but because Penner got big bucks and they are better players arguably or in the mind of their agents anyway, they want the big bucks and who can blame them, even a bidding war can occur further ratcheting up prices...

The price of hockey has gone up!...

How could you blame a GM even JFJ if the scenario above plays out and we lost one of Wellwood or Steen and got back mid round 1st 2nd and 3rd picks in the year 2009 that may not have any outstanding players at least in that range (which further points out what a great deal JFJ did getting Toskala and Bell for the same picks)...

That is a far out scenario but it points out what can happen when you Max out teams trying to retain players with potential and should it happen they can't have another lockout because that would be a real boon to a new league should one start (see Jim Balsillie)?...

If Wellwood and Steen want to wheel and deal and look for an extra mil on the open market, after JFJ offers them both extensions, then all the power to them both. Same with whatever respective team offers them the contracts.

I don't think YOU'RE getting the picture here. They're free agents, if teams want to offer them contracts, they should be allowed to without recieving remarks from others around the league.

That's the way free agency works, you lose players, and you gain some. If you allow your players to test the open market, expect them to recieve offers. If Agents decide to convince their players to reject offers and become RFA's and look for additional money, then that's pinned on the players as well. If they want to play with a hockey team, they won't allow it to resort to that.

It's a cut throat business, especially after the lockout and under a cap. Things like this happen, will happen, and will continue to happen. As far as I'm concerned, a free agent is a free agent, regardless of their status. If teams wish to pay compensation for signing a player, then that's fine.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

-= original quote snipped =-
If Wellwood and Steen want to wheel and deal and look for an extra mil on the open market, after JFJ offers them both extensions, then all the power to them both. Same with whatever respective team offers them the contracts.

I don't think YOU'RE getting the picture here. They're free agents, if teams want to offer them contracts, they should be allowed to without recieving remarks from others around the league.

That's the way free agency works, you lose players, and you gain some. If you allow your players to test the open market, expect them to recieve offers. If Agents decide to convince their players to reject offers and become RFA's and look for additional money, then that's pinned on the players as well. If they want to play with a hockey team, they won't allow it to resort to that.

It's a cut throat business, especially after the lockout and under a cap. Things like this happen, will happen, and will continue to happen. As far as I'm concerned, a free agent is a free agent, regardless of their status. If teams wish to pay compensation for signing a player, then that's fine.

I agree with a lot of what your saying and I'm not trying to belittle your opinion, your posts are very astute and well thought out and I guess this will boil down to a just two different views on the subject...

I simply think this will lead to high prices and chaos...

[UTMCretin]

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To the First part of your post you wouldn't want players that would move for a few extra bucks and this may be the reason why Russian players are not as sought after as North American Players because of their greedy tendencies RE: Cherepanov in this years draft...

Russian players are not as sought over because there is no transfer agreement between leagues in place at the moment. And in the case of Cherepanov, there were questions over whether he would ever consider coming over to North America because he could make just as much money playing at home in Russia. It has nothing to do with greed, just that there's a risk inherent in taking Russian players when you have no idea whether they'll ever play for your team

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

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Russian players are not as sought over because there is no transfer agreement between leagues in place at the moment. And in the case of Cherepanov, there were questions over whether he would ever consider coming over to North America because he could make just as much money playing at home in Russia. It has nothing to do with greed, just that there's a risk inherent in taking Russian players when you have no idea whether they'll ever play for your team

doesn't this make the point, as RFA's, they will go with the money and if paid as much as Penner, it's almost a sure thing...

[UTMCretin]

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doesn't this make the point, as RFA's, they will go with the money and if paid as much as Penner, it's almost a sure thing...

Was anyone denying that?