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Mr Loggins
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Re: Hawks | Spurs | Pelicans | Cavs 

Post#41 » by Mr Loggins » Thu May 23, 2024 7:59 pm

Chinook wrote:
Mr Loggins wrote:
Chinook wrote:
I think you did, but I guess that's obvious since I said it in the first place. I don't think PGs have as much value as this trade suggests, but I also think WW tends to push teams to overpay massively in most of their trade threads.


well, considering the examples you gave were

“There are a number in the draft that are preferable and can be paired with a vet mentor guard like Paul or Lowry. There are Morris and Jones as mid-career journeymen. There are prospects from overseas like Evans and Howard.”

I’m going to go ahead and assume 99.9% of basketball fans would agree that none of the above hold any value remotely close to Garland


You can assume what you want, but you're conflating two ideas. Garland can be the best or most valuable player on that list and still not be the only one who can fulfill that role. That Garland's asking price is absurdly high is pretty much the point I'm making. There are other young guards who can shoot and pass, and there are plenty of more age-appropriate players who can do the same.

This trade isn't talking about adding Garland to the existing roster on a mid-sized contract. It's talking about trading away the team's second-best player and multiple unprotected firsts for Garland on a max contract. He doesn't have that value. Not to the Spurs. Not to any team. Those other options paired with Vassell, those picks and much more long-term salary flexibility is a far better bet.



a) you’re moving the goalposts. First you say “there are lot of players like garland”. Then you name a bunch of stuff, none of which are like Garland, and then say “oh of course Garland is better than all this stuff I just named”. Not how it works
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Re: Hawks | Spurs | Pelicans | Cavs 

Post#42 » by Chinook » Fri May 24, 2024 12:25 am

Mr Loggins wrote:
Chinook wrote:
Mr Loggins wrote:
well, considering the examples you gave were

“There are a number in the draft that are preferable and can be paired with a vet mentor guard like Paul or Lowry. There are Morris and Jones as mid-career journeymen. There are prospects from overseas like Evans and Howard.”

I’m going to go ahead and assume 99.9% of basketball fans would agree that none of the above hold any value remotely close to Garland


You can assume what you want, but you're conflating two ideas. Garland can be the best or most valuable player on that list and still not be the only one who can fulfill that role. That Garland's asking price is absurdly high is pretty much the point I'm making. There are other young guards who can shoot and pass, and there are plenty of more age-appropriate players who can do the same.

This trade isn't talking about adding Garland to the existing roster on a mid-sized contract. It's talking about trading away the team's second-best player and multiple unprotected firsts for Garland on a max contract. He doesn't have that value. Not to the Spurs. Not to any team. Those other options paired with Vassell, those picks and much more long-term salary flexibility is a far better bet.



a) you’re moving the goalposts. First you say “there are lot of players like garland”. Then you name a bunch of stuff, none of which are like Garland, and then say “oh of course Garland is better than all this stuff I just named”. Not how it works


I didn't say "There are a lot of players like Garland". I said "The description you gave can apply to a lot of other players." If you want to say Garland has an extra je ne sais quoi, then you should articulate that. You're accusing me of hiding the ball, but I made it clear multiple times that Garland being better or not is irrelevant to the point I'm making, because the Spurs don't have the level need for a PG that is assumed by this thread, and insofar as they could use a PG, they don't require one of Garland's talent right now, especially given the price. "Worse than Garland" but significantly cheaper is better.

Or as I said before you responded:

I imagine you might want to reply with "But none of those guys are as good as Garland." But, like, who cares? The Spurs aren't a contender. They don't need to get the best PG, regardless of price. A star PG is not a need for the team, and if it were, the team doesn't have to meet all its needs right now. They certainly don't have to create additional holes and remove their long-term ability to address other needs to do so.

Garland isn't good for the Spurs. None of the players that are sexy to mock to the Spurs are good for them. That's not where they are right now, even if the media is trying to will them to be there.
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Re: Hawks | Spurs | Pelicans | Cavs 

Post#43 » by pad300 » Fri May 24, 2024 3:23 am

Mr Loggins wrote:...

I’m supposing this exemplifies the shortcoming with advanced stats…particularly using a injury plagued season to define a player


Unfortunately for your argument, it's not just 1 injury plagued season. Every single season that Garland had played in the NBA, Tyus Jones has produced a better WP/48 and Wins Produced total...

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&season=2022

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&season=2021

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&season=2020

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&season=2019

You're really underestimating Tyus Jones. He's not a big name, but he really does run a team very well... Given their respective market price tags, you probably do want Tyus ahead of Garland if you want to win.
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Re: Hawks | Spurs | Pelicans | Cavs 

Post#44 » by jbk1234 » Fri May 24, 2024 4:47 am

pad300 wrote:
Mr Loggins wrote:...

I’m supposing this exemplifies the shortcoming with advanced stats…particularly using a injury plagued season to define a player


Unfortunately for your argument, it's not just 1 injury plagued season. Every single season that Garland had played in the NBA, Tyus Jones has produced a better WP/48 and Wins Produced total...

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&season=2022

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&season=2021

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&season=2020

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&season=2019

You're really underestimating Tyus Jones. He's not a big name, but he really does run a team very well... Given their respective market price tags, you probably do want Tyus ahead of Garland if you want to win.


The Wizards won 15 games last year. Ty Jones started in 66 games.

The year before the Grizzlies won 27 game. Ty Jones played in 80.

Perhaps there's something imprecise about that metric.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
Mr Loggins
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Re: Hawks | Spurs | Pelicans | Cavs 

Post#45 » by Mr Loggins » Fri May 24, 2024 9:56 am

pad300 wrote:
Mr Loggins wrote:...

I’m supposing this exemplifies the shortcoming with advanced stats…particularly using a injury plagued season to define a player


Unfortunately for your argument, it's not just 1 injury plagued season. Every single season that Garland had played in the NBA, Tyus Jones has produced a better WP/48 and Wins Produced total...

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&season=2022

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&season=2021

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&season=2020

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=3538&player_ids%5B%5D=3068&season=2019

You're really underestimating Tyus Jones. He's not a big name, but he really does run a team very well... Given their respective market price tags, you probably do want Tyus ahead of Garland if you want to win.



ha, you must be Tyus Jones’s mom.

If you want to build your team around Jones, knock yourself out.
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Re: Hawks | Spurs | Pelicans | Cavs 

Post#46 » by pad300 » Sat May 25, 2024 4:24 pm

Mr Loggins wrote:
ha, you must be Tyus Jones’s mom.

If you want to build your team around Jones, knock yourself out.


And there's the error in your logical foundation. This ain't about building a team around Jones or Garland. It's about building a team around Wemby.
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Re: Hawks | Spurs | Pelicans | Cavs 

Post#47 » by pad300 » Sat May 25, 2024 4:28 pm

jbk1234 wrote:The Wizards won 15 games last year. Ty Jones started in 66 games.

The year before the Grizzlies won 27 game. Ty Jones played in 80.

Perhaps there's something imprecise about that metric.


I'm not saying the metric is perfect, but perhaps there might be something about the respective teams they were on?

Are you suggesting that outside of Jones and Garland, that 23-24 CLE is as bad a team as 23-24 Was? If so, shouldn't you guys (I think you're a CLE fan) be tanking for draft picks and having a fire sale for assets?
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Re: Hawks | Spurs | Pelicans | Cavs 

Post#48 » by Mr Loggins » Sat May 25, 2024 4:33 pm

pad300 wrote:
Mr Loggins wrote:
ha, you must be Tyus Jones’s mom.

If you want to build your team around Jones, knock yourself out.


And there's the error in your logical foundation. This ain't about building a team around Jones or Garland. It's about building a team around Wemby.



I get that, and think Garland would he a perfect fit around Wemby. Many nba journalists do as well (Rob Mahoney, Zach Lowe).

You were the one who brought on Jones in comparison to Garland, thereby shifting the focus to that.
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Re: Hawks | Spurs | Pelicans | Cavs 

Post#49 » by jbk1234 » Sat May 25, 2024 4:40 pm

pad300 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:The Wizards won 15 games last year. Ty Jones started in 66 games.

The year before the Grizzlies won 27 game. Ty Jones played in 80.

Perhaps there's something imprecise about that metric.


I'm not saying the metric is perfect, but perhaps there might be something about the respective teams they were on?

Are you suggesting that outside of Jones and Garland, that 23-24 CLE is as bad a team as 23-24 Was? If so, shouldn't you guys (I think you're a CLE fan) be tanking for draft picks and having a fire sale for assets?


I'm not suggesting that. You stated if you're concerned about winning, you should focus on win shares. Win shares is a garbage stat. Ty Jones is a really good back up who didn't do as well as a starter over the last two seasons. Garland has the opposite problem. He was great his last season as the lead ball handler, but it's difficult to transition from lead ball handler to second banana next to Mitchell, especially when opposing teams rarely help off of Garland.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Hawks | Spurs | Pelicans | Cavs 

Post#50 » by donato » Sun May 26, 2024 8:38 pm

Zero chance Pels trade Herb.

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