Derrick Jones Jr gone ATL/TOR

[Texas Chuck]

So we've explored a bunch of ways to shed money to keep Jones. But he's a UFA. So good chance he signs elsewhere.

Mavs trade: THJ/Prosper/25 TOR 2nd/28 Mia/2nd/$5M cash
Mavs get: Hunter

Hawks trade: Hunter
Hawks get: Prosper / future top 55 TOR 2nd

Raptors trade: future top 55 TOR 2nd
Raptors get: THJ/25 TOR 2nd/28 MIA 2nd/$5M cash

Been over the Raps part, here they get a good 2nd and a possibly good 2nd for spending $11M on a guy who would have a role for them as a bench shooter/veteran

Hawks -- I'll admit I don't really know what they will do direction wise. Unexpected jump up to #1, both guards in trade talks, wide belief they will move at least one of them, need to shed payroll as this roster doesn't justify tax. So here they move the expensive Hunter who in theory is a big 3&D forward, but his defensive metrics have been less than his reputation and of course the injuries. They take a chance on a prospect with some similar characteristics. and get a big TPE.

Mavs try to replace Jones. Won't get the same caliber defender but get a guy with a bit more offensive juice. And you hope that just as PJ Washington made significant jumps defensively, that Hunter who has the tools can do the same.

It might be better to just cut Toronto out here. And Atlanta should definitely have that option.

[Colbinii]

I'll say this--if Atlanta keeps Young, Hunter makes sense to keep roster-wise. If Atlanta keeps Murray, then moving Hunter makes more sense roster-wise. On the contrary, the team needs to shed additional money if they plan on keeping Young.

This is also more palatable for Atlanta if they can re-direct bogdan bogdanovic and eat THJ.

[Geaux_Hawks]

I'll say this--if Atlanta keeps Young, Hunter makes sense to keep roster-wise. If Atlanta keeps Murray, then moving Hunter makes more sense roster-wise. On the contrary, the team needs to shed additional money if they plan on keeping Young.

This is also more palatable for Atlanta if they can re-direct bogdan bogdanovic and eat THJ.

Why would we re-direct Bogi just to eat THJ?

[Colbinii]

I'll say this--if Atlanta keeps Young, Hunter makes sense to keep roster-wise. If Atlanta keeps Murray, then moving Hunter makes more sense roster-wise. On the contrary, the team needs to shed additional money if they plan on keeping Young.

This is also more palatable for Atlanta if they can re-direct bogdan bogdanovic and eat THJ.

Why would we re-direct Bogi just to eat THJ?

You would obvious get value. So a third team would give you more value than what Toronto gets and you get that value.

[Godaddycurse]

I'll say this--if Atlanta keeps Young, Hunter makes sense to keep roster-wise. If Atlanta keeps Murray, then moving Hunter makes more sense roster-wise. On the contrary, the team needs to shed additional money if they plan on keeping Young.

This is also more palatable for Atlanta if they can re-direct bogdan bogdanovic and eat THJ.

Why would we re-direct Bogi just to eat THJ?

You would obvious get value. So a third team would give you more value than what Toronto gets and you get that value.

ya something like

bogdanovic to orlando
THJ, those 2nds + DEN 2025 1st to atlanta

toronto gets cut out

For OP, it looks good for us. Does Dallas want to be hard capped at the 1st apron though with this trade?

[Texas Chuck]

I'll say this--if Atlanta keeps Young, Hunter makes sense to keep roster-wise. If Atlanta keeps Murray, then moving Hunter makes more sense roster-wise. On the contrary, the team needs to shed additional money if they plan on keeping Young.

This is also more palatable for Atlanta if they can re-direct bogdan bogdanovic and eat THJ.

Why would we re-direct Bogi just to eat THJ?

I think the idea is Bogdan has positive value that you could recoup with THJ as a one year stopgap in a re-tooling year. Not that you should just swap Bogdan for THJ with no other incentive(Even beyond the 2nds/cash this deal would be offering for taking on THJ as opposed to taking the larger savings in the OP.

Again, I freely acknowledge I don't know what Atlanta is looking to do. Just was looking around at a player type I thought potentially could be available. And I definitely don't think Hunter is untouchable or anything.

[jayjaysee]

I think OP is a deal all three teams do, Dallas definitely feels like settling. But it is settling..

I think it doesn’t cost this much to dump THJ. But Atlanta would be smart to sacrifice the Toronto 2nd to dump THJ here. Take back McDaniels if you want. This allows them plenty of breathing space from the tax to do whatever Trae or Murray deal they want. They really only should be trying to dump 8-10ish million, but dumping 15-18~ mil allows them to approach the more important trades freely.

[Geaux_Hawks]

I'll say this--if Atlanta keeps Young, Hunter makes sense to keep roster-wise. If Atlanta keeps Murray, then moving Hunter makes more sense roster-wise. On the contrary, the team needs to shed additional money if they plan on keeping Young.

This is also more palatable for Atlanta if they can re-direct bogdan bogdanovic and eat THJ.

Why would we re-direct Bogi just to eat THJ?

You would obvious get value. So a third team would give you more value than what Toronto gets and you get that value.

I think Atlanta would just take the cap space and forego the value. Cutting TOR wouldn't be the worst idea either since we can sell THJ at the deadline for whatever or include him for salary filler for something.

[Geaux_Hawks]

I'll say this--if Atlanta keeps Young, Hunter makes sense to keep roster-wise. If Atlanta keeps Murray, then moving Hunter makes more sense roster-wise. On the contrary, the team needs to shed additional money if they plan on keeping Young.

This is also more palatable for Atlanta if they can re-direct bogdan bogdanovic and eat THJ.

Why would we re-direct Bogi just to eat THJ?

I think the idea is Bogdan has positive value that you could recoup with THJ as a one year stopgap in a re-tooling year. Not that you should just swap Bogdan for THJ with no other incentive(Even beyond the 2nds/cash this deal would be offering for taking on THJ as opposed to taking the larger savings in the OP.

Again, I freely acknowledge I don't know what Atlanta is looking to do. Just was looking around at a player type I thought potentially could be available. And I definitely don't think Hunter is untouchable or anything.

Yeah I get it. I just thought the original deal was perfect as it was. I think Landry and Co. want to re-shape the roster for sure. I don't think that's going to see every single piece moved though. IMO we'd probably keep Bogi since we signed him to team friendly deal.

[islandboy53]

So we've explored a bunch of ways to shed money to keep Jones. But he's a UFA. So good chance he signs elsewhere.

Mavs trade: THJ/Prosper/25 TOR 2nd/28 Mia/2nd/$5M cash
Mavs get: Hunter

Hawks trade: Hunter
Hawks get: Prosper / future top 55 TOR 2nd

Raptors trade: future top 55 TOR 2nd
Raptors get: THJ/25 TOR 2nd/28 MIA 2nd/$5M cash

Been over the Raps part, here they get a good 2nd and a possibly good 2nd for spending $11M on a guy who would have a role for them as a bench shooter/veteran

Hawks -- I'll admit I don't really know what they will do direction wise. Unexpected jump up to #1, both guards in trade talks, wide belief they will move at least one of them, need to shed payroll as this roster doesn't justify tax. So here they move the expensive Hunter who in theory is a big 3&D forward, but his defensive metrics have been less than his reputation and of course the injuries. They take a chance on a prospect with some similar characteristics. and get a big TPE.

Mavs try to replace Jones. Won't get the same caliber defender but get a guy with a bit more offensive juice. And you hope that just as PJ Washington made significant jumps defensively, that Hunter who has the tools can do the same.

It might be better to just cut Toronto out here. And Atlanta should definitely have that option.

Given Toronto is more likely than not to be an over the cap team, you should definitely cut them out. Atlanta takes THJ into their existing $23 million TPE, and creates a new one. They get off THJ after next year (or move him later for something), and get 2 seconds for taking him on. Alternately, Dallas sends THJ and the 2nds to Toronto in return for Brown. They get a smaller guy, with less 3 pt shooting, but equal or better defence and more versatility, who doesn't have to be stuck on their books for 3 years if it doesn't work out. Also, they hang on to Prosper.

[MessiahUjiri]

So we've explored a bunch of ways to shed money to keep Jones. But he's a UFA. So good chance he signs elsewhere.

Mavs trade: THJ/Prosper/25 TOR 2nd/28 Mia/2nd/$5M cash
Mavs get: Hunter

Hawks trade: Hunter
Hawks get: Prosper / future top 55 TOR 2nd

Raptors trade: future top 55 TOR 2nd
Raptors get: THJ/25 TOR 2nd/28 MIA 2nd/$5M cash

Been over the Raps part, here they get a good 2nd and a possibly good 2nd for spending $11M on a guy who would have a role for them as a bench shooter/veteran

Hawks -- I'll admit I don't really know what they will do direction wise. Unexpected jump up to #1, both guards in trade talks, wide belief they will move at least one of them, need to shed payroll as this roster doesn't justify tax. So here they move the expensive Hunter who in theory is a big 3&D forward, but his defensive metrics have been less than his reputation and of course the injuries. They take a chance on a prospect with some similar characteristics. and get a big TPE.

Mavs try to replace Jones. Won't get the same caliber defender but get a guy with a bit more offensive juice. And you hope that just as PJ Washington made significant jumps defensively, that Hunter who has the tools can do the same.

It might be better to just cut Toronto out here. And Atlanta should definitely have that option.

Given Toronto is more likely than not to be an over the cap team, you should definitely cut them out. Atlanta takes THJ into their existing $23 million TPE, and creates a new one. They get off THJ after next year (or move him later for something), and get 2 seconds for taking him on. Alternately, Dallas sends THJ and the 2nds to Toronto in return for Brown. They get a smaller guy, with less 3 pt shooting, but equal or better defence and more versatility, who doesn't have to be stuck on their books for 3 years if it doesn't work out. Also, they hang on to Prosper.

Toronto won’t be an over the cap team in this scenario. They would decline Bruce Brown and let Gary Trent walk. So that’s technically the cost for Toronto - how much you value those guys plus foregoing the MLE.

I don’t think any cash is needed from Dallas. Keep it simple with the 2 2nds, and it works.

[islandboy53]

So we've explored a bunch of ways to shed money to keep Jones. But he's a UFA. So good chance he signs elsewhere.

Mavs trade: THJ/Prosper/25 TOR 2nd/28 Mia/2nd/$5M cash
Mavs get: Hunter

Hawks trade: Hunter
Hawks get: Prosper / future top 55 TOR 2nd

Raptors trade: future top 55 TOR 2nd
Raptors get: THJ/25 TOR 2nd/28 MIA 2nd/$5M cash


It might be better to just cut Toronto out here. And Atlanta should definitely have that option.

Given Toronto is more likely than not to be an over the cap team, you should definitely cut them out. Atlanta takes THJ into their existing $23 million TPE, and creates a new one. They get off THJ after next year (or move him later for something), and get 2 seconds for taking him on. Alternately, Dallas sends THJ and the 2nds to Toronto in return for Brown. They get a smaller guy, with less 3 pt shooting, but equal or better defence and more versatility, who doesn't have to be stuck on their books for 3 years if it doesn't work out. Also, they hang on to Prosper.

Toronto won’t be an over the cap team in this scenario. They would decline Bruce Brown and let Gary Trent walk. So that’s technically the cost for Toronto - how much you value those guys plus foregoing the MLE.

I don’t think any cash is needed from Dallas. Keep it simple with the 2 2nds, and it works.

The OP is clearly based on an assumption that Toronto is a cap space team this offseason. My point was that, imo, Toronto will operate over the cap, in which case they can't be part of the proposed trade. I offered a counter proposal for that scenario. In regards to under versus over the cap here, we have an expiring rotation piece and 2 2nds, with $15 million in cap space and an $8 million RE compared to a $13 million NTMLE, a $10 million TPE, a return for Brown, and the small chance of a return on a Trent sign and trade. I continue to expect Brown to generate more than a pair of 2nds, meaning Toronto operates over the cap, but, if on June 29th that's the best return out there, than the Raptors may choose the cap space route. We'll know soon.

[Texas Chuck]

I continue to expect Brown to generate more than a pair of 2nds, meaning Toronto operates over the cap,

You make valid points about how operating over the cap might be more beneficial to Toronto than being under it. No doubt.

Curious though that this seems to be why you think they will. And I have a real disconnect with that. I struggle to find where Toronto gets a first or a good prospect or even just 3 2nd round picks for him.

And if I am correct about him not holding this kind of value (unless Toronto eats a multiyear deal, but then that's not about Brown at that point) do you still want to operate over the cap?

[Colbinii]

The idea that Brown is going to return more than 2 2nds is pretty wild. He is a 10 Million - MLE range player paid 23 Million.

As teams have moved away from using major assets to dump poor salary, I find it hard for Brown to return a real 1st.

[oldncreaky]

I continue to expect Brown to generate more than a pair of 2nds, meaning Toronto operates over the cap,

You make valid points about how operating over the cap might be more beneficial to Toronto than being under it. No doubt.

Curious though that this seems to be why you think they will. And I have a real disconnect with that. I struggle to find where Toronto gets a first or a good prospect or even just 3 2nd round picks for him.

And if I am correct about him not holding this kind of value (unless Toronto eats a multiyear deal, but then that's not about Brown at that point) do you still want to operate over the cap?

I agree that Brown, by himself, isn't worth much. I have him as worth the NTMLE, but paid an extra $10M. I'd be happy with 2 meh SRPs and an expiring for Brown, knowing that the expiring coming back would be less playable/desirable/fit.

However, Toronto's cap sheet this year and next should allow them to take back a bad contract in the $25M range that stretches into the 2025-26 season, and still stay under the tax in both seasons. There's some variables of course -- Quickley's contract, do they have a good use for the full NTMLE this summer -- but Brown's contract is a vehicle to earn a real asset (FRP) by taking back a bad contract with 2 years left on it. The FO can get to the same amount of room by just not picking up his option, but then you've also foregone whatever you can do/get with a Trent S&T, the NTMLE, and a $10.2M TPE.

As godaddy says, we'll probably know on draft day. In the meantime, while overpaid, Brown is the closest thing Toronto has to a backup PG, so he'll get court time if he's on the roster.

[Texas Chuck]

However, Toronto's cap sheet this year and next should allow them to take back a bad contract in the $25M range that stretches into the 2025-26 season, and still stay under the tax in both seasons. There's some variables of course -- Quickley's contract, do they have a good use for the full NTMLE this summer -- but Brown's contract is a vehicle to earn a real asset (FRP) by taking back a bad contract with 2 years left on it. The FO can get to the same amount of room by just not picking up his option, but then you've also foregone whatever you can do/get with a Trent S&T, the NTMLE, and a $10.2M TPE.

Oh no, I totally get his point (and yours) about staying over the cap and possibly using Brown as a vehicle to do that. I totally agree that might be the best path.

Just disagree with his belief on how much value he can pull out of Brown is all.

[islandboy53]

I continue to expect Brown to generate more than a pair of 2nds, meaning Toronto operates over the cap,

You make valid points about how operating over the cap might be more beneficial to Toronto than being under it. No doubt.

Curious though that this seems to be why you think they will. And I have a real disconnect with that. I struggle to find where Toronto gets a first or a good prospect or even just 3 2nd round picks for him.

And if I am correct about him not holding this kind of value (unless Toronto eats a multiyear deal, but then that's not about Brown at that point) do you still want to operate over the cap?

I agree that Brown bringing back a 1st, or a good prospect, or 3 2nds seems unlikely, though I don't rule out the possibility of New York swapping Bojan and 24 or 25 for Brown. I don't see Toronto taking back large multiyears, such as Wiggins, because it puts them in tax/1st apron territory, which makes no sense at this point. A smaller multiyear incoming with a 1st, or a 2nd and a prospect attached might happen. Something like Huerter, plus Mitchell or Duarte and a 25 2nd from Sacramento, for example. I suggest that's better value than THJ and 2 2nds, and it can't happen, obviously, if Toronto declines Brown. Toronto has been scouring the market for Brown deals, and will continue to do so. I think this year's draft, spread out over 2 days as it is, will generate more trades than in previous years. Brown has a market, and I think Toronto would like to have the certainty of a deal, even the one we were looking at earlier. I think the NTMLE will take care of FA's they may be looking at, and i'm sure they'd rather lock him/them up than wait around hoping someone wants to give them a 1st for the use of their cap space.