The Detroit Knicks?

[theBigLip]

Another question for Detroit fans. Why does Duren come up in trades a lot from Pistons fans?
What am I missing here? Every time I watch him he is dominant. I get he isn't a great scoring 5, but it seems like for a 20yo big man he is exactly what you would have hoped he could become at this point?

I love him but his defense leaves a lot to be desired.

I think he can improve. Lots of Pistons fans question his defensive instincts and don’t anticipate much growth.

Not all Pistons fans want to trade Duren. Personally, I think he will improve a lot since he is only 20 years old. I doubt the Pistons trade him.

[oldncreaky]

Another question for Detroit fans. Why does Duren come up in trades a lot from Pistons fans?
What am I missing here? Every time I watch him he is dominant. I get he isn't a great scoring 5, but it seems like for a 20yo big man he is exactly what you would have hoped he could become at this point?

I love him but his defense leaves a lot to be desired.

I think he can improve. Lots of Pistons fans question his defensive instincts and don’t anticipate much growth.

Not all Pistons fans want to trade Duren. Personally, I think he will improve a lot since he is only 20 years old. I doubt the Pistons trade him.

Agree

Only the occasional big figures out how to play legit NBA defence in their first couple of years, and that's even more true for someone like Duren who came in as a teenager. He has good hands and good feet, and is cheap for 2 more years. IMO we should be patient -- but being patient isn't a thing for most fans

[A_dub06]

I love this Knicks team, so no offense to the Knicks fans.

Randle and McBride (to a much lesser extent) are garbage. I wouldn't want them for free.

I like Robinson a lot and I obviously would love our pick back, but I would not eat Randle's contract even if we were given Robinson and our pick back for eating it.

For me, there wouldn't be a deal involving Randle, and I don't value McBride.

The guy I'd love to get is Isaiah Hartenstein and the Knicks have no say in it since he is an UFA.

It's kind of funny that you are calling a guy garbage while he has been the last 4 years
3× NBA All-Star (2021, 2023, 2024)
2x All NBA(2021 & 2023)
NBA Most Improved Player (2021)
While DET that has been in the bottom 7 team in the NBA those 4 year.
DET would cream for a Randle.

Ahhh the typical butt-hurt response. There’s building a team for success and there’s setting your team up to be an expensive failure. On a team like the Pistons, surely you can see that Randle is not going to really move the needle and he is expensive. I don’t think he even moves the needle that much the Knicks and for a guy as paid as him that’s not what you want. Yes, Detroit is terrible and has been run into the ground by an inept front office. But even Pistons fans are allowed to want for more and for the team to be built right, and your response is really just a hurt fan that’s having a tantrum. If you can’t put feelings aside to discuss things in the NBA like your beloved Knicks in a logical and constructive way, you would get a better response on the Knicks board where you are free to participate in a good ole Dutch rudder.

To really illustrate the ignorance of your post, look at all the awards Russel Westbrook won. He did not deserve half of what he did as hindsight has proved him to be a waste of money, talent and success. should Detroit also CREAM for RW?

[R-DAWG]

A Knicks/Pistons package would only really be interesting from a Knicks perspective if they were turning win now pieces into young pieces as part of a 3 way trade.

As a Knicks fan, I'm happy to swap Robinson for Duran. Not sure why Detroit would do these, so let's take Robinson off the table. I'm also not sure why the Pistons would want McBride given they already have too many guards. Sure, I guess he could compliment Cade well, but so can Sasser and Grimes in that role.

So I think what this really comes down to is Julius Randle. And it makes sense that a team like Detroit, who seems to want to get out of the rebuilding stage, would be a fit for a guy like Randle since they likely are not going to attract top-tier stars via free agency or pre-agency. In theory, Detroit would structure the trade with a higher end prospect (Ivey/Thompson/Pick #5) combined with a mid-tier prospect (Grimes/Sasser), and a future pick (ie: DET makes protections on the 25 1st they owe to NY top-5 protected for 2 years then owes a top-5 protected pick to a 3rd team. In theory, NY would add to this package to get a star player. Is this the Pistons best course of action? Look - I would make the argument that Randle is better than any player they realistically can acquire in free agency. The Pistons would need to improve the roster around Randle/Cade, but I can see the organization looking at this as a way to have a short run flirting with the 8th seed.

Recap of trade:
NYK: Pick #5 or Ivey/Thompson, Protections changed on 2025 1st to top 5 protected pick for 2 years (rolling to 2 2nds) followed by another 1st 2 years after with the same protections for 2 years
DET: Randle

Detroit would still +/- $45,000,000 in cap space after the Randle trade (assuming they keep Ivey/Thompson and trade #5 for Randle) to round out the roster. Obviously, there would need to be some reshuffling of the roster as Ivey/Thompson don't really fit with Cade/Randle and that's before factoring in Duran/Stewart. But there is something workable here.

[BlazersBroncos]

If Randle returns anything close to #5 or Thompson I will eat my own face.

I think Ivey for Randle could be doable. DET could throw some SRP in the mix as well. Maybe add Metu as well to NYK.

[theBigLip]

If Randle returns anything close to #5 or Thompson I will eat my own face.

I think Ivey for Randle could be doable. DET could throw some SRP in the mix as well. Maybe add Metu as well to NYK.

Totally agree. Randle is being seriously over valued in this trade. His best days are behind him. He’s coming off shoulder surgery. And I doubt he would be happy playing for a lottery team.

But how about #5 for Randle and our pick back (that will possibly never convey)? We eat the cap space which is really what the Knicks need. And probably better to put this into a 3 way trade w some contender that could use Randle.

[TGW]

Recap of trade:
NYK: Pick #5 or Ivey/Thompson, Protections changed on 2025 1st to top 5 protected pick for 2 years (rolling to 2 2nds) followed by another 1st 2 years after with the same protections for 2 years
DET: Randle

If the Pistons were to do something like this, Langdan should be fired immediately. That is just bad.

But how about #5 for Randle and our pick back (that will possibly never convey)? We eat the cap space which is really what the Knicks need. And probably better to put this into a 3 way trade w some contender that could use Randle.

This is closer to a fair deal IMO.

[R-DAWG]

If Randle returns anything close to #5 or Thompson I will eat my own face.

I think Ivey for Randle could be doable. DET could throw some SRP in the mix as well. Maybe add Metu as well to NYK.

Totally agree. Randle is being seriously over valued in this trade. His best days are behind him. He’s coming off shoulder surgery. And I doubt he would be happy playing for a lottery team.

But how about #5 for Randle and our pick back (that will possibly never convey)? We eat the cap space which is really what the Knicks need. And probably better to put this into a 3 way trade w some contender that could use Randle.

It's not fair to say Randle's best days are behind him.

Also - I think Randle believes that he's good enough to take a lottery team to the playoffs

[Kalamazoo317]

Only the occasional big figures out how to play legit NBA defence in their first couple of years, and that's even more true for someone like Duren who came in as a teenager. He has good hands and good feet, and is cheap for 2 more years. IMO we should be patient -- but being patient isn't a thing for most fans

Another perspective is that being patient means watching his trade value disappear. We were patient with Killian. If we'd traded him at the first indications that he was a bust, we might've gotten some decent value. Instead we gave him every opportunity to show how much of a bust he was on the court, and we cut him for nothing.

Duren's obviously already shown a lot more than Killian, but what he hasn't shown is incredibly worrisome. So if you're going to project his value and you believe in your projections, there's a window where you could sell high and it makes sense to, rather than being patient and ending up with nothing.

That said, I'm not just throwing him away for anything. I'm trading him *if* it's truly a sell high where we get a better asset in return that fits what we need or that can be traded again for something we need.

[oldncreaky]

Only the occasional big figures out how to play legit NBA defence in their first couple of years, and that's even more true for someone like Duren who came in as a teenager. He has good hands and good feet, and is cheap for 2 more years. IMO we should be patient -- but being patient isn't a thing for most fans

Another perspective is that being patient means watching his trade value disappear. We were patient with Killian. If we'd traded him at the first indications that he was a bust, we might've gotten some decent value. Instead we gave him every opportunity to show how much of a bust he was on the court, and we cut him for nothing.

Duren's obviously already shown a lot more than Killian, but what he hasn't shown is incredibly worrisome. So if you're going to project his value and you believe in your projections, there's a window where you could sell high and it makes sense to, rather than being patient and ending up with nothing.

That said, I'm not just throwing him away for anything. I'm trading him *if* it's truly a sell high where we get a better asset in return that fits what we need or that can be traded again for something we need.

Mostly agree

One difference though: bigs usually take longer to develop. We occasionally see a guard "turn it around" in another situation after looking like a bust -- Cam Payne comes to mind. OTOH, we see lots of bigs who seem lost in their first 2-3 years, but then find their level and become solid players.

[R-DAWG]

I love this Knicks team, so no offense to the Knicks fans.

Randle and McBride (to a much lesser extent) are garbage. I wouldn't want them for free.

I like Robinson a lot and I obviously would love our pick back, but I would not eat Randle's contract even if we were given Robinson and our pick back for eating it.

For me, there wouldn't be a deal involving Randle, and I don't value McBride.

The guy I'd love to get is Isaiah Hartenstein and the Knicks have no say in it since he is an UFA.

It's kind of funny that you are calling a guy garbage while he has been the last 4 years
3× NBA All-Star (2021, 2023, 2024)
2x All NBA(2021 & 2023)
NBA Most Improved Player (2021)
While DET that has been in the bottom 7 team in the NBA those 4 year.
DET would cream for a Randle.

Ahhh the typical butt-hurt response. There’s building a team for success and there’s setting your team up to be an expensive failure. On a team like the Pistons, surely you can see that Randle is not going to really move the needle and he is expensive. I don’t think he even moves the needle that much the Knicks and for a guy as paid as him that’s not what you want. Yes, Detroit is terrible and has been run into the ground by an inept front office. But even Pistons fans are allowed to want for more and for the team to be built right, and your response is really just a hurt fan that’s having a tantrum. If you can’t put feelings aside to discuss things in the NBA like your beloved Knicks in a logical and constructive way, you would get a better response on the Knicks board where you are free to participate in a good ole Dutch rudder.

To really illustrate the ignorance of your post, look at all the awards Russel Westbrook won. He did not deserve half of what he did as hindsight has proved him to be a waste of money, talent and success. should Detroit also CREAM for RW?

Randle deserves slack for his postseason struggles, and it’s fair to say he will never be the best player on a contender.

But I can also say pretty confidently that without Julius Randle the past 4 seasons the Knicks would not have been in position to win 2 playoff series and have home court advantage in 4 of the 5 playoff series that they played in over the last 5 years.

Just calling it as it is. Any Randle trade would be part of a bigger Randle + assets for star type of trade. Otherwise, the knicks have no problem brining Randle back and building upon the success of this years team.

[Kalamazoo317]

Only the occasional big figures out how to play legit NBA defence in their first couple of years, and that's even more true for someone like Duren who came in as a teenager. He has good hands and good feet, and is cheap for 2 more years. IMO we should be patient -- but being patient isn't a thing for most fans

Another perspective is that being patient means watching his trade value disappear. We were patient with Killian. If we'd traded him at the first indications that he was a bust, we might've gotten some decent value. Instead we gave him every opportunity to show how much of a bust he was on the court, and we cut him for nothing.

Duren's obviously already shown a lot more than Killian, but what he hasn't shown is incredibly worrisome. So if you're going to project his value and you believe in your projections, there's a window where you could sell high and it makes sense to, rather than being patient and ending up with nothing.

That said, I'm not just throwing him away for anything. I'm trading him *if* it's truly a sell high where we get a better asset in return that fits what we need or that can be traded again for something we need.

Mostly agree

One difference though: bigs usually take longer to develop. We occasionally see a guard "turn it around" in another situation after looking like a bust -- Cam Payne comes to mind. OTOH, we see lots of bigs who seem lost in their first 2-3 years, but then find their level and become solid players.

Can you think of any good examples of non-rim protectors who became rim protectors in their third season or after?