Pretty ugly. Ingram to Chicago? Demar to Atlanta

[jayjaysee]

Yeah, not the most realistic one. But fun for a second..

Not sure what Demar deal looks like, but assume it has to be about this big or one of Chicago/Detroit/Utah/Philly will beat it? Demar is happy to get 36-40 million a year guaranteed and thinks paired with Trae/Jalen and good defenders they can go on a real run.

Atlanta: Murray, Capela
Atlanta: Demar (3yr110-120) Caruso, 2025 NOP first (top 10 protected)

Atlanta brings in an ideal pairing with Young and an old vet to help the team compete while Sarr/Jalen hopefully develop and kill the pick debt clock. They hard cap themselves, but they aren’t going over the apron anyways realistically and would have enough space to fill the last roster spot, but looking to trade Hunter for 10-12 million dollar player and duck the tax..

Chicago: Demar, Caruso
Chicago: Ingram, Nance

Chicago gets a younger secondary star. They can keep pushing for play-in with Ingram and bank on one of Zach, Coby.. Chicago gets a nice value win IMO due to helping Atlanta get a steady second option for Trae through the pick debt years. With the new extension rules, Ingram could agree to a 43 million first year extension as part of the trade? Really should be enough?

NOP: Ingram, Nance, 2025 NOP first (top 10 protected)
NOP: Capela and Murray

NOP does a deal similar to the one most like. A defensive guard and center and bank on Zion being healthy.

[Whole Truth]

Murray's contract is what's holding the value in this deal for Atlanta. Capela is a declining player on the wrong side of 30 expiring, I don't think he's enough of an upgrade over Nance to include a projected pick in the teens, in the 25 draft.

I would prefer to dump CJ's contract into space for that financial value. Extend BI, platoon Murphy & Daniels based on matchup, in the hole left by CJ, which would prevent adding additional salary.

BI ext 50m + Herb 12m + Nance 10m + Daniels 6m = 78m + Murphy extension

Capela 22m expiring + CJ 35m + Herb 12m + Murray 30m = 99m + Murphy extension

Instead of spending a projected pick in the teens 25 for an ageing, declining & expiring Capela as a rental. NO's would be able to shed enough money to target a better fitting C & a more controlled option in free agency. 

Free agent - C
Zion
BI
Murphy/Herb -- Hawkins
Herb/Daniels - Jose

[Whole Truth]

CJ is not a PG that was playing point for NO's. They could easily & cheaply opt to platoon Murphy & Daniels in his place & shed his 35m in trade to make the extension financial risk work. Free enough cap space to land a C in a CJ trade or free agency.

[jayjaysee]

Murray's contract is what's holding the value in this deal for Atlanta. Capela is a declining player on the wrong side of 30 expiring, I don't think he's enough of an upgrade over Nance to include a projected pick in the teens, in the 25 draft.

I would prefer to dump CJ's contract into space for that financial value. Extend BI, platoon Murphy & Daniels based on matchup, in the hole left by CJ, which would prevent adding additional salary.

BI ext 50m + Herb 12m + Nance 10m + Daniels 6m = 78m + Murphy extension

Capela 22m expiring + CJ 35m + Herb 12m + Murray 30m = 99m + Murphy extension

Instead of spending a projected pick in the teens 25 for an ageing, declining & expiring Capela as a rental. NO's would be able to shed enough money to target a better fitting C & a more controlled option in free agency. 

Free agent - C
Zion
BI
Murphy/Herb -- Hawkins
Herb/Daniels - Jose

So this doesn’t same much about Murray to NOP?

But I do think Murray is worth more than Ingram due to contract. I think Capela will be better than Nance next year. And since they’re both expirings and older, that’s all that matters? So the protected first is half for the Nance upgrade and half for Murray/Ingram swap. Where DJM will make about 30 million compared to Ingram’s 45 million.

The Capela part could be removed completely really. NOP would still owe something to go from locked up Murray to expiring Ingram IMO.

If NOP dumps CJM completely, renounces their free agents except for Naji? They’d be around 124 million.. What free agent upgrade is signing for 17 million that is worth losing CJM, Jonas cap hold, the full MLE.. I guess you can dump CJM and Nance and then have money for Hartenstein or Claxton?

But maybe you can build a sign and trade for Claxton I guess?

But at that point, you could just trade Capela as mostly neutral salary filler back to Brooklyn. So guess I just don’t see that either.

I don’t pretend to know more about the Pels than a NOP fan would… but your salary numbers are really confusing in general since one has Ingram and one has Capela but not DJM?

Capela is an expiring, Murphy extension won’t kick in until Capela is off the team or resigned likely cheaper?

CJM will only make 30 million when Murphy gets extended, not 35..

CJ is not a PG that was playing point for NO's.

CJM was not the point guard? In the sense that NOP didn’t have a point guard and just had three playmakers, sort of positionless?

He played the 3rd most minutes on the team, 3rd most minutes per game, third most APG, third best assist percentage .. created his own shot the most.. played with other point guards less than he played with shooting guards..

[Whole Truth]

Murray's contract is what's holding the value in this deal for Atlanta. Capela is a declining player on the wrong side of 30 expiring, I don't think he's enough of an upgrade over Nance to include a projected pick in the teens, in the 25 draft.

I would prefer to dump CJ's contract into space for that financial value. Extend BI, platoon Murphy & Daniels based on matchup, in the hole left by CJ, which would prevent adding additional salary.

BI ext 50m + Herb 12m + Nance 10m + Daniels 6m = 78m + Murphy extension

Capela 22m expiring + CJ 35m + Herb 12m + Murray 30m = 99m + Murphy extension

Instead of spending a projected pick in the teens 25 for an ageing, declining & expiring Capela as a rental. NO's would be able to shed enough money to target a better fitting C & a more controlled option in free agency. 

Free agent - C
Zion
BI
Murphy/Herb -- Hawkins
Herb/Daniels - Jose

So this doesn’t same much about Murray to NOP?

But I do think Murray is worth more than Ingram due to contract. I think Capela will be better than Nance next year. And since they’re both expirings and older, that’s all that matters? So the protected first is half for the Nance upgrade and half for Murray/Ingram swap. Where DJM will make about 30 million compared to Ingram’s 45 million.

The Capela part could be removed completely really. NOP would still owe something to go from locked up Murray to expiring Ingram IMO.

If NOP dumps CJM completely, renounces their free agents except for Naji? They’d be around 124 million.. What free agent upgrade is signing for 17 million that is worth losing CJM, Jonas cap hold, the full MLE.. I guess you can dump CJM and Nance and then have money for Hartenstein or Claxton?

But maybe you can build a sign and trade for Claxton I guess?

But at that point, you could just trade Capela as mostly neutral salary filler back to Brooklyn. So guess I just don’t see that either.

I don’t pretend to know more about the Pels than a NOP fan would… but your salary numbers are really confusing in general since one has Ingram and one has Capela but not DJM?

Capela is an expiring, Murphy extension won’t kick in until Capela is off the team or resigned likely cheaper?

CJM will only make 30 million when Murphy gets extended, not 35..

CJ is not a PG that was playing point for NO's.

CJM was not the point guard? In the sense that NOP didn’t have a point guard and just had three playmakers, sort of positionless?

He played the 3rd most minutes on the team, 3rd most minutes per game, third most APG, third best assist percentage .. created his own shot the most.. played with other point guards less than he played with shooting guards..

Not arguing those points. Murray's contract is a value contract & has worth. I'm just not willing to pay it because I think BI is the better talent & NO's can find an alternative way to save that money without giving up the additional value.

Your trade is arguably fair value, just not one I'd accept.

[dms269]

I would prefer to dump CJ's contract into space for that financial value.

I feel like that is easier said than done.

[oldncreaky]

I would prefer to dump CJ's contract into space for that financial value.

I feel like that is easier said than done.

Detroit is the obvious team for CJ to be traded for pure cap space

[ChettheJet]

There's no point to the Bulls getting 2 expiring contracts by giving up one and plus an UFA. and for taking back WAY more money. If they're going to make some serious roster moves do it now instead of kicking the can down the road a year to when they DO NOT have a FRP.

Take a look at the games played by Ingram and DeRozan over the last 7 years, not very close. Plus unless the Bulls are going to start Nance at the 4 with Ingram at the 3 they resign Patrick Williams to come off the bench for 20? minutes a game? Then next summer they have to tell themselves that Williams can start at the 3 and they have to shop for a new starting 4. With ZERO net gain.

[jayjaysee]

There's no point to the Bulls getting 2 expiring contracts by giving up one and plus an UFA. and for taking back WAY more money. If they're going to make some serious roster moves do it now instead of kicking the can down the road a year to when they DO NOT have a FRP.

Take a look at the games played by Ingram and DeRozan over the last 7 years, not very close. Plus unless the Bulls are going to start Nance at the 4 with Ingram at the 3 they resign Patrick Williams to come off the bench for 20? minutes a game? Then next summer they have to tell themselves that Williams can start at the 3 and they have to shop for a new starting 4. With ZERO net gain.

The OP did mention Ingram can be extended as part of the trade. So would expect that to be done…

Demar is healthier/ more available than Ingram.. But Ingram is 8 years younger than Demar, does that impact anything in opinion?

As for the play?

I’d guess Patrick and Ingram start together and play about 18-20 minutes together. Nance or the MLE fill the other PF minutes.

Patrick has played almost all of his minutes at the four to start his career, no reason he can’t split his minutes between the forward spots. He has always looked like a tweener to me.

[jayjaysee]

I would prefer to dump CJ's contract into space for that financial value.

I feel like that is easier said than done.

Detroit is the obvious team for CJ to be traded for pure cap space

Dumping CJM completely, still leaves NOP with 124 million, 15-16 mil in cap space once you factor in incomplete roster change or Naji’ cap hold. 18-19 if you trade out of the draft.

Would Detroit take Nance with CJM? He’s a nice vet to have around the kids and expires. Would take up most of Detroit’s cap space, but would be cheap upgrades and Detroit can make some other moves. That seems the only way to really get to Claxton/Hartenstein money for NOP.

[Whole Truth]

I feel like that is easier said than done.

Detroit is the obvious team for CJ to be traded for pure cap space

Dumping CJM completely, still leaves NOP with 124 million, 15-16 mil in cap space once you factor in incomplete roster change or Naji’ cap hold. 18-19 if you trade out of the draft.

Would Detroit take Nance with CJM? He’s a nice vet to have around the kids and expires. Would take up most of Detroit’s cap space, but would be cheap upgrades and Detroit can make some other moves. That seems the only way to really get to Claxton/Hartenstein money for NOP.

NO's were rumored to be trading #21, for 2 future 2nds.

In honesty I never really dug into the cap detail & that was negligible of me to suggest without doing.

If NO's were to trade (Nance, CJ, #21) for (Stewart, cap space) & let go Naji's cap hold would they fall short ?

[jayjaysee]

Detroit is the obvious team for CJ to be traded for pure cap space

Dumping CJM completely, still leaves NOP with 124 million, 15-16 mil in cap space once you factor in incomplete roster change or Naji’ cap hold. 18-19 if you trade out of the draft.

Would Detroit take Nance with CJM? He’s a nice vet to have around the kids and expires. Would take up most of Detroit’s cap space, but would be cheap upgrades and Detroit can make some other moves. That seems the only way to really get to Claxton/Hartenstein money for NOP.

NO's were rumored to be trading #21, for 2 future 2nds.

In honesty I never really dug into the cap detail & that was negligible of me to suggest without doing.

If NO's were to trade (Nance, CJ, #21) for (Stewart, cap space) & let go Naji's cap hold would they fall short ?

I’m not don’t real math here honestly, but finger math is 121 million losing 21st and CJM. But that’s only 11 players, so lose a mil or so with incomplete roster charge (why I said just keep Naji’s cap hold since it’s so small)

Stewart for Nance eats 3.8 million more of that.

So looking like 15~ million in cap space.

[Whole Truth]

Dumping CJM completely, still leaves NOP with 124 million, 15-16 mil in cap space once you factor in incomplete roster change or Naji’ cap hold. 18-19 if you trade out of the draft.

Would Detroit take Nance with CJM? He’s a nice vet to have around the kids and expires. Would take up most of Detroit’s cap space, but would be cheap upgrades and Detroit can make some other moves. That seems the only way to really get to Claxton/Hartenstein money for NOP.

NO's were rumored to be trading #21, for 2 future 2nds.

In honesty I never really dug into the cap detail & that was negligible of me to suggest without doing.

If NO's were to trade (Nance, CJ, #21) for (Stewart, cap space) & let go Naji's cap hold would they fall short ?

I’m not don’t real math here honestly, but finger math is 121 million losing 21st and CJM. But that’s only 11 players, so lose a mil or so with incomplete roster charge (why I said just keep Naji’s cap hold since it’s so small)

Stewart for Nance eats 3.8 million more of that.

So looking like 15~ million in cap space.

That would be enough to resign Jonas & have Stewart backing him up.

[jayjaysee]

NO's were rumored to be trading #21, for 2 future 2nds.

In honesty I never really dug into the cap detail & that was negligible of me to suggest without doing.

If NO's were to trade (Nance, CJ, #21) for (Stewart, cap space) & let go Naji's cap hold would they fall short ?

I’m not don’t real math here honestly, but finger math is 121 million losing 21st and CJM. But that’s only 11 players, so lose a mil or so with incomplete roster charge (why I said just keep Naji’s cap hold since it’s so small)

Stewart for Nance eats 3.8 million more of that.

So looking like 15~ million in cap space.

That would be enough to resign Jonas & have Stewart backing him up.

If they are resigning Jonas, then the Det trade should just be about creating a CJM trade exception to play with all season..

No real reason to lose the full MLE, Naji, and a 33 million TPE here.

Do like Beefstew in NOP if Detroit is open to moving him for this kind of return.

[oldncreaky]

I feel like that is easier said than done.

Detroit is the obvious team for CJ to be traded for pure cap space

Dumping CJM completely, still leaves NOP with 124 million, 15-16 mil in cap space once you factor in incomplete roster change or Naji’ cap hold. 18-19 if you trade out of the draft.

Would Detroit take Nance with CJM? He’s a nice vet to have around the kids and expires. Would take up most of Detroit’s cap space, but would be cheap upgrades and Detroit can make some other moves. That seems the only way to really get to Claxton/Hartenstein money for NOP.

Probably. DET will have about $63M in cap space, and need to use $50M just to get to the salary floor

DET first choice will be to sign FAs at fair prices. I'm pretty pessimistic about that: between DET typically needing to overpay to get anyone to come, and the slim pickings in the FA class, we may not sign even 1.

The next option is to trade for playable players on OKish contracts, and both CJ and Nance fit into that, or trading for bloated contracts that come with FRPs attached.

Also, I don't think many DET fans are good with trading Stewart to get more space: he's probably our most desirable asset after Cade, on a fair contract, and the last thing we need is more space. A team would have to crazily overvalue Stewart to pry him away this off season.

[Whole Truth]

Detroit is the obvious team for CJ to be traded for pure cap space

Dumping CJM completely, still leaves NOP with 124 million, 15-16 mil in cap space once you factor in incomplete roster change or Naji’ cap hold. 18-19 if you trade out of the draft.

Would Detroit take Nance with CJM? He’s a nice vet to have around the kids and expires. Would take up most of Detroit’s cap space, but would be cheap upgrades and Detroit can make some other moves. That seems the only way to really get to Claxton/Hartenstein money for NOP.

Probably. DET will have about $63M in cap space, and need to use $50M just to get to the salary floor

DET first choice will be to sign FAs at fair prices. I'm pretty pessimistic about that: between DET typically needing to overpay to get anyone to come, and the slim pickings in the FA class, we may not sign even 1.

The next option is to trade for playable players on OKish contracts, and both CJ and Nance fit into that, or trading for bloated contracts that come with FRPs attached.

Also, I don't think many DET fans are good with trading Stewart to get more space: he's probably our most desirable asset after Cade, on a fair contract, and the last thing we need is more space. A team would have to crazily overvalue Stewart to pry him away this off season.

Give me an option of trading for Duren or Stewart, I'm trading for Stewart.

Is there a price for Stewart ?

[oldncreaky]

Dumping CJM completely, still leaves NOP with 124 million, 15-16 mil in cap space once you factor in incomplete roster change or Naji’ cap hold. 18-19 if you trade out of the draft.

Would Detroit take Nance with CJM? He’s a nice vet to have around the kids and expires. Would take up most of Detroit’s cap space, but would be cheap upgrades and Detroit can make some other moves. That seems the only way to really get to Claxton/Hartenstein money for NOP.

Probably. DET will have about $63M in cap space, and need to use $50M just to get to the salary floor

DET first choice will be to sign FAs at fair prices. I'm pretty pessimistic about that: between DET typically needing to overpay to get anyone to come, and the slim pickings in the FA class, we may not sign even 1.

The next option is to trade for playable players on OKish contracts, and both CJ and Nance fit into that, or trading for bloated contracts that come with FRPs attached.

Also, I don't think many DET fans are good with trading Stewart to get more space: he's probably our most desirable asset after Cade, on a fair contract, and the last thing we need is more space. A team would have to crazily overvalue Stewart to pry him away this off season.

Give me an option of trading for Duren or Stewart, I'm trading for Stewart.

Is there a price for Stewart ?

There have been threads on this

As I said, "A team would have to crazily overvalue Stewart to pry him away this off season" -- an offer so unbalanced that Detroit couldn't say no, and the other team shouldn't offer in the first place.

Detroit offers cap relief. If we are in any trades this off season, it's because we are getting compensated for taking other teams unwanted contracts.

[Whole Truth]

Probably. DET will have about $63M in cap space, and need to use $50M just to get to the salary floor

DET first choice will be to sign FAs at fair prices. I'm pretty pessimistic about that: between DET typically needing to overpay to get anyone to come, and the slim pickings in the FA class, we may not sign even 1.

The next option is to trade for playable players on OKish contracts, and both CJ and Nance fit into that, or trading for bloated contracts that come with FRPs attached.

Also, I don't think many DET fans are good with trading Stewart to get more space: he's probably our most desirable asset after Cade, on a fair contract, and the last thing we need is more space. A team would have to crazily overvalue Stewart to pry him away this off season.

Give me an option of trading for Duren or Stewart, I'm trading for Stewart.

Is there a price for Stewart ?

There have been threads on this

As I said, "A team would have to crazily overvalue Stewart to pry him away this off season" -- an offer so unbalanced that Detroit couldn't say no, and the other team shouldn't offer in the first place.

Detroit offers cap relief. If we are in any trades this off season, it's because we are getting compensated for taking other teams unwanted contracts.

Unfortunately, NO's heads see CJ's value differently than I do.

I would do the trade we discussed in the cap space thread yesterday, not sure Griff would.