New Big 3: Jimmy, Bam... and Julius Randle

[BBallFreak]

Just an FYI for anyone making trades with the Heat, Jimmy Butler is very much a 4 at this point. They need to upgrade their perimeter, not front-court.

Nope. Jovic is our four. Miami plays positionless basketball. When we go small, Caleb Martin and Jimmy play together. Neither is a four.

Defensively he is.

Jovic and Bam defend opposing frontcourts. Full stop.

Before Jovic was ready, Jimmy played in combination with small forwards and, yes, he played the power forward spot in those roles, but it was not the ideal. That's why Jovic was put into the lineup, because he has the right physical tools. Jimmy doesn't. Playing power forward was not out of fit as much as out of necessity.

Just because you can, and do, force a round peg into a square hole doesn't mean it belongs there. He's definitely a three who's willing to play the four. Not a four.

[JayTWill]

Fit and playoff performance! I hate Randle's fit next to Bam and Jimmy. And I'm not saying I want to keep Herro, just not trade him for Randle. And Rozier cost us an expiring waste of a roster spot and a protected first. He's a clunky fit next to Herro, but I want to move Herro and have for a long time.

But outside of his rookie year Herro hasn't been a good playoff performer himself. Randle isn't the perfect fit between Bam and Butler but he found a way to function and have success between Robinson and Barrett for years.

And I was just wondering why your organization was willing to give up a lottery protected first in 2027 that is completely unprotected in 2028 for a questionable fit and player in Rozier but you wouldn't be willing to move a guaranteed mid first rounder in what is considered a below average draft for Randle?

Caleb Martin just seems like another one of those guys that looked great in Miami at times but will never live up to expectations on another team. Julius is arguably more talented than any of the other pieces involved but you wouldn't be willing to move a single one in hopes that your team could maximize the impact of his talents as has been done with many other players on the Heat before?

So, again, I want to trade Herro. I believe Duncan Robinson is a much better fit next to Rozier. I believe the team would like to trade Herro, as well. Pat Riley's comments regarding Herro weren't exactly a glowing endorsement. My ideal move would be to include Herro in a larger trade for a star, or to find a way to trade him into someone's cap space with no one coming back (that's unrealistic). I don't consider Randle a candidate because I hate the fit.

So you don't like Randle because he is a poor playoff performer and a poor fit but you rather keep Herro who has the same issues while being on a longer contract. You would also like to move Herro in a package for a star or trade him into someone else's cap-space with nothing coming back.

Randle's potentially expiring contract wouldn't be more appealing in a trade package than 3 years of Herro considering both of their flaws as players at the money they make? And if you couldn't find a trade for either player Randle would probably be off your books at the end of the season as I expect him to opt out. Wouldn't that help you to achieve your goal of eventually removing Herro without having any money coming back?

Considering your franchise didn't seem willing to pay the cost to get Lillard last off-season what star do you think would be attainable for the few assets your team has and might be willing to offer up?

Edit - Also do you believe you are a better team with Herro and his questionable fit in the backcourt versus having Randle and his questionable fit at the 4? Which player do you think gives your team a higher ceiling?

[R-DAWG]

A Randle to the Heat kind of trade makes some sense in that he's the best piece Miami can potentially acquire with it's limited asset base and closing window. This kind of reminds me of the Antwan Jamison to the Cavs trade in 2010 prior to Lebron leaving.

I think Herro is too big of a cost, and frankly I don't see the Knicks wanting Herro with their roster and payroll. Duncan Robinson and Caleb Martin should be enough to make the money work. Throw in the 15th pick.

But NY isn't doing this unless it's part of a larger trade for a better player than Randle.

[BBallFreak]

But outside of his rookie year Herro hasn't been a good playoff performer himself. Randle isn't the perfect fit between Bam and Butler but he found a way to function and have success between Robinson and Barrett for years.

And I was just wondering why your organization was willing to give up a lottery protected first in 2027 that is completely unprotected in 2028 for a questionable fit and player in Rozier but you wouldn't be willing to move a guaranteed mid first rounder in what is considered a below average draft for Randle?

Caleb Martin just seems like another one of those guys that looked great in Miami at times but will never live up to expectations on another team. Julius is arguably more talented than any of the other pieces involved but you wouldn't be willing to move a single one in hopes that your team could maximize the impact of his talents as has been done with many other players on the Heat before?

So, again, I want to trade Herro. I believe Duncan Robinson is a much better fit next to Rozier. I believe the team would like to trade Herro, as well. Pat Riley's comments regarding Herro weren't exactly a glowing endorsement. My ideal move would be to include Herro in a larger trade for a star, or to find a way to trade him into someone's cap space with no one coming back (that's unrealistic). I don't consider Randle a candidate because I hate the fit.

So you don't like Randle because he is a poor playoff performer and a poor fit but you rather keep Herro who has the same issues while being on a longer contract. You would also like to move Herro in a package for a star or trade him into someone else's cap-space with nothing coming back.

Randle's potentially expiring contract wouldn't be more appealing in a trade package than 3 years of Herro considering both of their flaws as players at the money they make? And if you couldn't find a trade for either player Randle would probably be off your books at the end of the season as I expect him to opt out. Wouldn't that help you to achieve your goal of eventually removing Herro without having any money coming back?

Considering your franchise didn't seem willing to pay the cost to get Lillard last off-season what star do you think would be attainable for the few assets your team has and might be willing to offer up?

Edit - Also do you believe you are a better team with Herro and his questionable fit in the backcourt versus having Randle and his questionable fit at the 4? Which player do you think gives your team a higher ceiling?

So, our only choices are Herro or Julius Randle? We couldn't possibly trade him for anyone else, at all? I wasn't aware of that. Apparently we have to make a crappy trade! Who knew?

Lol

You don't get to tell us that we have to do. We can trade him to a lot of teams! Hell, we'd be better off cutting you out, keeping Caleb and our first, and taking Cody! It would save us a fortune and we're probably due some sweetener!

[BBallFreak]

A Randle to the Heat kind of trade makes some sense in that he's the best piece Miami can potentially acquire with it's limited asset base and closing window. This kind of reminds me of the Antwan Jamison to the Cavs trade in 2010 prior to Lebron leaving.

I think Herro is too big of a cost, and frankly I don't see the Knicks wanting Herro with their roster and payroll. Duncan Robinson and Caleb Martin should be enough to make the money work. Throw in the 15th pick.

But NY isn't doing this unless it's part of a larger trade for a better player than Randle.

We've got three first to trade, Herro, Jaquez, and Jovic. We can certainly do better than Randle.

[JayTWill]

So, again, I want to trade Herro. I believe Duncan Robinson is a much better fit next to Rozier. I believe the team would like to trade Herro, as well. Pat Riley's comments regarding Herro weren't exactly a glowing endorsement. My ideal move would be to include Herro in a larger trade for a star, or to find a way to trade him into someone's cap space with no one coming back (that's unrealistic). I don't consider Randle a candidate because I hate the fit.

So you don't like Randle because he is a poor playoff performer and a poor fit but you rather keep Herro who has the same issues while being on a longer contract. You would also like to move Herro in a package for a star or trade him into someone else's cap-space with nothing coming back.

Randle's potentially expiring contract wouldn't be more appealing in a trade package than 3 years of Herro considering both of their flaws as players at the money they make? And if you couldn't find a trade for either player Randle would probably be off your books at the end of the season as I expect him to opt out. Wouldn't that help you to achieve your goal of eventually removing Herro without having any money coming back?

Considering your franchise didn't seem willing to pay the cost to get Lillard last off-season what star do you think would be attainable for the few assets your team has and might be willing to offer up?

Edit - Also do you believe you are a better team with Herro and his questionable fit in the backcourt versus having Randle and his questionable fit at the 4? Which player do you think gives your team a higher ceiling?

So, our only choices are Herro or Julius Randle? We couldn't possibly trade him for anyone else, at all? I wasn't aware of that. Apparently we have to make a crappy trade! Who knew?

Lol

You don't get to tell us that we have to do. We can trade him to a lot of teams! Hell, we'd be better off cutting you out, keeping Caleb and our first, and taking Cody! It would save us a fortune and we're probably due some sweetener!

I asked you who you thought you could acquire for Herro's contract along with your assets in a trade for a star. You didn't answer that or any of my other questions. There were reports during the Lillard discussions that Herro's contract was not looked at favorably. There were also reports that Herro was not made available in the trade. I'm not sure what is true.

I didn't tell you that you must accept this trade. You specifically said that not only would you avoid doing this trade but you wouldn't trade a single piece from this trade for Randle while criticizing him for things that could easily apply to Herro also. So I asked you how does Randle inhibit you from making a star trade or clearing salary in ways that Herro doesn't with a longer contract.

Personally i'm not too impressed with any of the pieces involved in this trade. As a Knick fan I know Randle does not have a huge market. Help me to understand how Herro has a better market for what you are trying to accomplish.

[R-DAWG]

A Randle to the Heat kind of trade makes some sense in that he's the best piece Miami can potentially acquire with it's limited asset base and closing window. This kind of reminds me of the Antwan Jamison to the Cavs trade in 2010 prior to Lebron leaving.

I think Herro is too big of a cost, and frankly I don't see the Knicks wanting Herro with their roster and payroll. Duncan Robinson and Caleb Martin should be enough to make the money work. Throw in the 15th pick.

But NY isn't doing this unless it's part of a larger trade for a better player than Randle.

We've got three first to trade, Herro, Jaquez, and Jovic. We can certainly do better than Randle.

But you might not be able to get a player that justifies giving up all that stuff.

[BBallFreak]

A Randle to the Heat kind of trade makes some sense in that he's the best piece Miami can potentially acquire with it's limited asset base and closing window. This kind of reminds me of the Antwan Jamison to the Cavs trade in 2010 prior to Lebron leaving.

I think Herro is too big of a cost, and frankly I don't see the Knicks wanting Herro with their roster and payroll. Duncan Robinson and Caleb Martin should be enough to make the money work. Throw in the 15th pick.

But NY isn't doing this unless it's part of a larger trade for a better player than Randle.

We've got three first to trade, Herro, Jaquez, and Jovic. We can certainly do better than Randle.

But you might not be able to get a player that justifies giving up all that stuff.

We don't have to give it all up. Their are degrees and a lot of players in the league

[BBallFreak]

So you don't like Randle because he is a poor playoff performer and a poor fit but you rather keep Herro who has the same issues while being on a longer contract. You would also like to move Herro in a package for a star or trade him into someone else's cap-space with nothing coming back.

Randle's potentially expiring contract wouldn't be more appealing in a trade package than 3 years of Herro considering both of their flaws as players at the money they make? And if you couldn't find a trade for either player Randle would probably be off your books at the end of the season as I expect him to opt out. Wouldn't that help you to achieve your goal of eventually removing Herro without having any money coming back?

Considering your franchise didn't seem willing to pay the cost to get Lillard last off-season what star do you think would be attainable for the few assets your team has and might be willing to offer up?

Edit - Also do you believe you are a better team with Herro and his questionable fit in the backcourt versus having Randle and his questionable fit at the 4? Which player do you think gives your team a higher ceiling?

So, our only choices are Herro or Julius Randle? We couldn't possibly trade him for anyone else, at all? I wasn't aware of that. Apparently we have to make a crappy trade! Who knew?

Lol

You don't get to tell us that we have to do. We can trade him to a lot of teams! Hell, we'd be better off cutting you out, keeping Caleb and our first, and taking Cody! It would save us a fortune and we're probably due some sweetener!

I asked you who you thought you could acquire for Herro's contract along with your assets in a trade for a star. You didn't answer that or any of my other questions. There were reports during the Lillard discussions that Herro's contract was not looked at favorably. There were also reports that Herro was not made available in the trade. I'm not sure what is true.

I didn't tell you that you must accept this trade. You specifically said that not only would you avoid doing this trade but you wouldn't trade a single piece from this trade for Randle while criticizing him for things that could easily apply to Herro also. So I asked you how does Randle inhibit you from making a star trade or clearing salary in ways that Herro doesn't with a longer contract.

Personally i'm not too impressed with any of the pieces involved in this trade. As a Knick fan I know Randle does not have a huge market. Help me to understand how Herro has a better market for what you are trying to accomplish.

*Sigh*

I didn't say Herro had a bigger market. Show me where I did. I said, specifically, that I've wanted to move him for awhile now. I've also said that we have three firsts we can trade, Jovic, and Jaquez. I don't see why we'd include a first and a cheap player we like (Martin) to swap Herro for a player we don't like just so we can again flip that player. Wouldn't Martin and a first be better served in getting the player we actually do want?

As for a list, no I'm not giving you that. I don't know who's going to be available. Sorry, but that's the NBA these days. You tend to keep your assets available for when the next big player asks out.

I didn't love the Rozier trade but I understood it. They were trying to get a scorer to help their anemic offense and probably figured they'd be staggering minutes between he and Herro.

Seems reasonable to me. Maybe you don't like it, but I don't know what to tell you. I would never trade for Randle unless we rebuilt our entire team and he happened to be a fit in the new structure. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

[JayTWill]

So, our only choices are Herro or Julius Randle? We couldn't possibly trade him for anyone else, at all? I wasn't aware of that. Apparently we have to make a crappy trade! Who knew?

Lol

You don't get to tell us that we have to do. We can trade him to a lot of teams! Hell, we'd be better off cutting you out, keeping Caleb and our first, and taking Cody! It would save us a fortune and we're probably due some sweetener!

I asked you who you thought you could acquire for Herro's contract along with your assets in a trade for a star. You didn't answer that or any of my other questions. There were reports during the Lillard discussions that Herro's contract was not looked at favorably. There were also reports that Herro was not made available in the trade. I'm not sure what is true.

I didn't tell you that you must accept this trade. You specifically said that not only would you avoid doing this trade but you wouldn't trade a single piece from this trade for Randle while criticizing him for things that could easily apply to Herro also. So I asked you how does Randle inhibit you from making a star trade or clearing salary in ways that Herro doesn't with a longer contract.

Personally i'm not too impressed with any of the pieces involved in this trade. As a Knick fan I know Randle does not have a huge market. Help me to understand how Herro has a better market for what you are trying to accomplish.

*Sigh*

I didn't say Herro had a bigger market. Show me where I did. I said, specifically, that I've wanted to move him for awhile now. I've also said that we have three firsts we can trade, Jovic, and Jaquez. I don't see why we'd include a first and a cheap player we like (Martin) to swap Herro for a player we don't like just so we can again flip that player. Wouldn't Martin and a first be better served in getting the player we actually do want?

As for a list, no I'm not giving you that. I don't know who's going to be available. Sorry, but that's the NBA these days. You tend to keep your assets available for when the next big player asks out.

I didn't love the Rozier trade but I understood it. They were trying to get a scorer to help their anemic offense and probably figured they'd be staggering minutes between he and Herro.

Seems reasonable to me. Maybe you don't like it, but I don't know what to tell you. I would never trade for Randle unless we rebuilt our entire team and he happened to be a fit in the new structure. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

You said you would be willing to trade Herro's contract with hopefully no money back but you did not think that was possible. Imo it would be much easier to dump Randle's 1 year contract with a player option that I think he is unlikely to pickup versus Herro's 3 years.

I never said you should have to trade all these pieces for Randle but you said you wouldn't trade any of them which I disagree with.

As far as the Heat's assets personally I don't value them highly. Heat role players are known to underperform on their next team or on their next contract with the Heat and the draft picks are from a team that never tanks, is rarely in the lottery and hasn't picked higher than 10 in almost 20 years. Unfortunately you are unwilling to even list players that you may be attainable so I can't gauge the value you believe your assets have.

At least I know Herro, Martin, pick #15 and possibly Robinson and Rozier are more favorable to you than Randle for future trade discussions.

[BBallFreak]

I asked you who you thought you could acquire for Herro's contract along with your assets in a trade for a star. You didn't answer that or any of my other questions. There were reports during the Lillard discussions that Herro's contract was not looked at favorably. There were also reports that Herro was not made available in the trade. I'm not sure what is true.

I didn't tell you that you must accept this trade. You specifically said that not only would you avoid doing this trade but you wouldn't trade a single piece from this trade for Randle while criticizing him for things that could easily apply to Herro also. So I asked you how does Randle inhibit you from making a star trade or clearing salary in ways that Herro doesn't with a longer contract.

Personally i'm not too impressed with any of the pieces involved in this trade. As a Knick fan I know Randle does not have a huge market. Help me to understand how Herro has a better market for what you are trying to accomplish.

*Sigh*

I didn't say Herro had a bigger market. Show me where I did. I said, specifically, that I've wanted to move him for awhile now. I've also said that we have three firsts we can trade, Jovic, and Jaquez. I don't see why we'd include a first and a cheap player we like (Martin) to swap Herro for a player we don't like just so we can again flip that player. Wouldn't Martin and a first be better served in getting the player we actually do want?

As for a list, no I'm not giving you that. I don't know who's going to be available. Sorry, but that's the NBA these days. You tend to keep your assets available for when the next big player asks out.

I didn't love the Rozier trade but I understood it. They were trying to get a scorer to help their anemic offense and probably figured they'd be staggering minutes between he and Herro.

Seems reasonable to me. Maybe you don't like it, but I don't know what to tell you. I would never trade for Randle unless we rebuilt our entire team and he happened to be a fit in the new structure. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

You said you would be willing to trade Herro's contract with hopefully no money back but you did not think that was possible. Imo it would be much easier to dump Randle's 1 year contract with a player option that I think he is unlikely to pickup versus Herro's 3 years.

I never said you should have to trade all these pieces for Randle but you said you wouldn't trade any of them which I disagree with.

As far as the Heat's assets personally I don't value them highly. Heat role players are known to underperform on their next team or on their next contract with the Heat and the draft picks are from a team that never tanks, is rarely in the lottery and hasn't picked higher than 10 in almost 20 years. Unfortunately you are unwilling to even list players that you may be attainable so I can't gauge the value you believe your assets have.

At least I know Herro, Martin, pick #15 and possibly Robinson and Rozier are more favorable to you than Randle for future trade discussions.

I never said Rozier (or any of those pieces, for that matter) was more valuable than Randle. I said I wouldn't trade those pieces for him. Massive difference. Value and fit aren't the same thing.

If you were to create a four team trade where Randle went to a team other than Miami, Herro went to a team other than New York (because Knicks fans, similarly, do not value him), and we got nothing back, I'd be thrilled! But I'm not making a deal where we land Randle with the hopes of making that trade. See the difference?

As for Miami's assets, Riley is 80. He's going to retire soon. Butler is 35. He's going to retire soon. Miami's picks could be incredibly valuable. If you don't like Jaquez and Jovic, that's fine but I don't think that's how the league feels about them. Miami players underperforming in their second contracts tends to refer more towards our undrafted players than our drafted players. Jaquez, in particular, can play anywhere.

[JayTWill]

*Sigh*

I didn't say Herro had a bigger market. Show me where I did. I said, specifically, that I've wanted to move him for awhile now. I've also said that we have three firsts we can trade, Jovic, and Jaquez. I don't see why we'd include a first and a cheap player we like (Martin) to swap Herro for a player we don't like just so we can again flip that player. Wouldn't Martin and a first be better served in getting the player we actually do want?

As for a list, no I'm not giving you that. I don't know who's going to be available. Sorry, but that's the NBA these days. You tend to keep your assets available for when the next big player asks out.

I didn't love the Rozier trade but I understood it. They were trying to get a scorer to help their anemic offense and probably figured they'd be staggering minutes between he and Herro.

Seems reasonable to me. Maybe you don't like it, but I don't know what to tell you. I would never trade for Randle unless we rebuilt our entire team and he happened to be a fit in the new structure. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

You said you would be willing to trade Herro's contract with hopefully no money back but you did not think that was possible. Imo it would be much easier to dump Randle's 1 year contract with a player option that I think he is unlikely to pickup versus Herro's 3 years.

I never said you should have to trade all these pieces for Randle but you said you wouldn't trade any of them which I disagree with.

As far as the Heat's assets personally I don't value them highly. Heat role players are known to underperform on their next team or on their next contract with the Heat and the draft picks are from a team that never tanks, is rarely in the lottery and hasn't picked higher than 10 in almost 20 years. Unfortunately you are unwilling to even list players that you may be attainable so I can't gauge the value you believe your assets have.

At least I know Herro, Martin, pick #15 and possibly Robinson and Rozier are more favorable to you than Randle for future trade discussions.

I never said Rozier (or any of those pieces, for that matter) was more valuable than Randle. I said I wouldn't trade those pieces for him. Massive difference. Value and fit aren't the same thing.

If you were to create a four team trade where Randle went to a team other than Miami, Herro went to a team other than New York (because Knicks fans, similarly, do not value him), and we got nothing back, I'd be thrilled! But I'm not making a deal where we land Randle with the hopes of making that trade. See the difference?

As for Miami's assets, Riley is 80. He's going to retire soon. Butler is 35. He's going to retire soon. Miami's picks could be incredibly valuable. If you don't like Jaquez and Jovic, that's fine but I don't think that's how the league feels about them. Miami players underperforming in their second contracts tends to refer more towards our undrafted players than our drafted players. Jaquez, in particular, can play anywhere.

-I can't create a multi-team trade since you won't even list who you think is attainable or who you may want for whatever reason. We see things differently. All I know is you obviously disagree with the idea of swapping almost any of your players or assets for Randle.

-Riley may be retiring soon but I can't imagine they would go in an entirely different direction as far as team building after the continued success the team has had since his arrival.

-I said those players are more favorable to you, not more valuable. And even drafted guys like Winslow and Richardson never lived to the flashes they showed in Miami. Miami does a great job maximizing the usefulness of their players imo.