Bogdan to Denver?

[mademan]

Im not sure how you put a competent defense around Trae/MPJ,

I think we overdo this on paper stuff. I mean Dallas just went to the Finals on the backs of their defense starting Luka/Kyrie and its not like the supporting cast was some all-defense guys. Lively good for a rookie, but still a rookie. Derrick Jones is fine, but when he's your best wing defender....

It's fabulous to be Boston, Minny, or dynasty GSW where everyone in the rotation essentially is a plus defender, but you don't have to have to that to compete defensively. Even without an elite anchor.

I disagree here. Kyrie, even before this season, has shown he can be a solid to really good defender at times. Luka has always had solid defensive metrics due to his combination of size and defensive rebounding ability. I can get behind MPJ, in some systems, being incorporated into an elite defensive team, but Trae is just a lost cause to me, and he's never shown that he can be anything but a defensive liability.

I dont think you can have a great defensive team with Trae at the helm if all the other spots dont have strong defenders. Dallas isnt a good comparison, especially because Luka's defensive problems were always overstated (and to a lesser extent, Kyrie too)

[Texas Chuck]

Im not sure how you put a competent defense around Trae/MPJ,

I think we overdo this on paper stuff. I mean Dallas just went to the Finals on the backs of their defense starting Luka/Kyrie and its not like the supporting cast was some all-defense guys. Lively good for a rookie, but still a rookie. Derrick Jones is fine, but when he's your best wing defender....

It's fabulous to be Boston, Minny, or dynasty GSW where everyone in the rotation essentially is a plus defender, but you don't have to have to that to compete defensively. Even without an elite anchor.

I disagree here. Kyrie, even before this season, has shown he can be a solid to really good defender at times. Luka has always had solid defensive metrics due to his combination of size and defensive rebounding ability. I can get behind MPJ, in some systems, being incorporated into an elite defensive team, but Trae is just a lost cause to me, and he's never shown that he can be anything but a defensive liability.

I dont think you can have a great defensive team with Trae at the helm if all the other spots dont have strong defenders. Dallas isnt a good comparison, especially because Luka's defensive problems were always overstated (and to a lesser extent, Kyrie too)

I mean no comparison is ever perfect. Yes, Trae is a much bigger liability than Luka or Kyrie. No question. My point is we see quality defenses come from teams without elite defensive players. A good coach and a commitment from the team goes a long way.

Now to be clear I was not speaking about this specific trade--just a general disagreement that player X or Y means you just have to give up on defense. Even with a defender as bad as Trae.

[jbk1234]

I think we overdo this on paper stuff. I mean Dallas just went to the Finals on the backs of their defense starting Luka/Kyrie and its not like the supporting cast was some all-defense guys. Lively good for a rookie, but still a rookie. Derrick Jones is fine, but when he's your best wing defender....

It's fabulous to be Boston, Minny, or dynasty GSW where everyone in the rotation essentially is a plus defender, but you don't have to have to that to compete defensively. Even without an elite anchor.

I disagree here. Kyrie, even before this season, has shown he can be a solid to really good defender at times. Luka has always had solid defensive metrics due to his combination of size and defensive rebounding ability. I can get behind MPJ, in some systems, being incorporated into an elite defensive team, but Trae is just a lost cause to me, and he's never shown that he can be anything but a defensive liability.

I dont think you can have a great defensive team with Trae at the helm if all the other spots dont have strong defenders. Dallas isnt a good comparison, especially because Luka's defensive problems were always overstated (and to a lesser extent, Kyrie too)

I mean no comparison is ever perfect. Yes, Trae is a much bigger liability than Luka or Kyrie. No question. My point is we see quality defenses come from teams without elite defensive players. A good coach and a commitment from the team goes a long way.

Now to be clear I was not speaking about this specific trade--just a general disagreement that player X or Y means you just have to give up on defense. Even with a defender as bad as Trae.

I think hole is too deep on that end for the Hawks. They have Daniels as a good defender and that's it. Hunter is passable on a good day. Neither Capela nor OO should be starting. As excited as fans are about Johnson, he has a way to go defensively. Injuries and Chron's look like they've taken a toll on Nance. Their frontcourt is just Swiss cheese.

The Mavs looked like a very different team when Lively was out and before they traded for Gafford/PJ.

[Texas Chuck]

I think hole is too deep on that end for the Hawks. They have Daniels as a good defender and that's it. Hunter is passable on a good day. Neither Capela nor OO should be starting. As excited as fans are about Johnson, he has a way to go defensively. Injuries and Chron's look like they've taken a toll on Nance. Their frontcourt is just Swiss cheese.

The Mavs looked like a very different team when Lively was out and before they traded for Gafford/PJ.

Yes, again, on paper Atlanta looks worse on defense than Dallas. But nobody should pretend they thought Gafford and Washington meant Dallas would have the best(2nd best?) defense in the league from that point forward. And that they would go to the Finals on the strength of their defense almost in spite of their offense.

That's my larger point. Team construction and team success isn't just counting up the parts and coming to a conclusion. Sorry, but nobody here thought Dallas was a couple of 5th starters from an elite defense. We can't re-write history to say of course Dallas was great, we all saw that coming. None of us did.

[jbk1234]

I think hole is too deep on that end for the Hawks. They have Daniels as a good defender and that's it. Hunter is passable on a good day. Neither Capela nor OO should be starting. As excited as fans are about Johnson, he has a way to go defensively. Injuries and Chron's look like they've taken a toll on Nance. Their frontcourt is just Swiss cheese.

The Mavs looked like a very different team when Lively was out and before they traded for Gafford/PJ.

Yes, again, on paper Atlanta looks worse on defense than Dallas. But nobody should pretend they thought Gafford and Washington meant Dallas would have the best(2nd best?) defense in the league from that point forward. And that they would go to the Finals on the strength of their defense almost in spite of their offense.

That's my larger point. Team construction and team success isn't just counting up the parts and coming to a conclusion. Sorry, but nobody here thought Dallas was a couple of 5th starters from an elite defense. We can't re-write history to say of course Dallas was great, we all saw that coming. None of us did.

I think being able to put two credible rim protectors AND two credible wing defenders on the floor for 48 minutes matters and it matters a lot.

Also, if you go back and look, I think you'll be surprised at how many people really liked those trades at the time for the Mavs.