Atlanta - Portland

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Myth
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#21 » by Myth » Sat Sep 14, 2024 8:03 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Case2012 wrote:Posting any trades about DA is waste of time. He put up 23 and 15 basically the last 25 games and endangered the tank but he's been stigmatized af so he's worth a top 55 protected 2nd on real gm.



Forget your notion for a minute that RealGM is biased against your team. Lots of posters believe this and I know there is no convincing these posters of this once they've talked themselves into it. Even though none of them can ever explain why random posters are collectively against their team....

Do you honestly think Ayton is good value on his contract? Do you think were he a free agent this past summer and 10 or more teams had max space that he would have gotten a 2 year max?

See I do not. I don't think putting up some counting numbers in a small sample on a bad team makes him a max player. Particularly when the most important value a center has is anchoring a defense something he probably could do at a league average level if he wanted(we saw him do this for Phoenix before he decided nope his priority was his own offensive numbers), but he hasn't in 3 years now.

So maybe consider its not bias. It's he's a good but not great offensive center defending at a poor level over years now making max money. That's just not a max player no matter what his name is. And we have more productive discussions when we evaluate the player not start with some notion that people are just unfair to my team because uh reasons. :D

I agree that people aren’t just anti-Blazers, and I agree that Ayton is not worth his contract, thus no team would sign him at that level into pure cap space. All that said, Ayton is tradable, and could return something useful to Portland, but it would be at the expense of Blazers taking on different bad money.
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#22 » by JRoy » Sat Sep 14, 2024 11:08 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Case2012 wrote:Posting any trades about DA is waste of time. He put up 23 and 15 basically the last 25 games and endangered the tank but he's been stigmatized af so he's worth a top 55 protected 2nd on real gm.



Forget your notion for a minute that RealGM is biased against your team. Lots of posters believe this and I know there is no convincing these posters of this once they've talked themselves into it. Even though none of them can ever explain why random posters are collectively against their team....

Do you honestly think Ayton is good value on his contract? Do you think were he a free agent this past summer and 10 or more teams had max space that he would have gotten a 2 year max?

See I do not. I don't think putting up some counting numbers in a small sample on a bad team makes him a max player. Particularly when the most important value a center has is anchoring a defense something he probably could do at a league average level if he wanted(we saw him do this for Phoenix before he decided nope his priority was his own offensive numbers), but he hasn't in 3 years now.

So maybe consider its not bias. It's he's a good but not great offensive center defending at a poor level over years now making max money. That's just not a max player no matter what his name is. And we have more productive discussions when we evaluate the player not start with some notion that people are just unfair to my team because uh reasons. :D


POR has several expensive guys who are not worth their contracts for most teams. Tough to find buyers for those guys who would send back enough value to make trading them worthwhile.
Edrees wrote:
JRoy wrote:Monta Ellis have it all


I was hoping and expecting this to be one of the first replies. You did not disappoint. Jroy have it all.
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#23 » by tester551 » Sun Sep 15, 2024 1:18 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
Case2012 wrote:Posting any trades about DA is waste of time. He put up 23 and 15 basically the last 25 games and endangered the tank but he's been stigmatized af so he's worth a top 55 protected 2nd on real gm.



Forget your notion for a minute that RealGM is biased against your team. Lots of posters believe this and I know there is no convincing these posters of this once they've talked themselves into it. Even though none of them can ever explain why random posters are collectively against their team....

Do you honestly think Ayton is good value on his contract? Do you think were he a free agent this past summer and 10 or more teams had max space that he would have gotten a 2 year max?

See I do not. I don't think putting up some counting numbers in a small sample on a bad team makes him a max player. Particularly when the most important value a center has is anchoring a defense something he probably could do at a league average level if he wanted(we saw him do this for Phoenix before he decided nope his priority was his own offensive numbers), but he hasn't in 3 years now.

So maybe consider its not bias. It's he's a good but not great offensive center defending at a poor level over years now making max money. That's just not a max player no matter what his name is. And we have more productive discussions when we evaluate the player not start with some notion that people are just unfair to my team because uh reasons. :D

This is such a terrible argument.

No one said anything about bias against one team here. But there absolutely is 'group think' bias that gets applied to specific players. It works both directions -> some get overrated while others get underrated by the mainstream narrative.

Sometimes it doesn't take very long for it to flip on a player. Brandon Ingram is a good example. He was overrated the last 2 seasons. Right now he has no trade value according to these boards and is now underrated.

Kuminga is another one that seems to be going through that transition.

Some others - Derick White, Gafford, and Zubac are underrated on these boards.
OG, JJJ, and Garland are overrated.


Back to Ayton - your hypothetical scenario doesn't make sense because you're throwing out the term 'max contract' like it's all the same. Fact is that Ayton will be paid $34M this next season. Considering Hartenstein got a $29M contract and Claxton got a $24M contract-> I would absolutely expect Ayton to get something in the $25-$30M range...

Yes - he's overpaid, but it's by about $5-$8M. He has some positive trade value.
The current narrative here is that he's deeply negative.
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#24 » by Case2012 » Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:26 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
Case2012 wrote:Posting any trades about DA is waste of time. He put up 23 and 15 basically the last 25 games and endangered the tank but he's been stigmatized af so he's worth a top 55 protected 2nd on real gm.



Forget your notion for a minute that RealGM is biased against your team. Lots of posters believe this and I know there is no convincing these posters of this once they've talked themselves into it. Even though none of them can ever explain why random posters are collectively against their team....

Do you honestly think Ayton is good value on his contract? Do you think were he a free agent this past summer and 10 or more teams had max space that he would have gotten a 2 year max?

See I do not. I don't think putting up some counting numbers in a small sample on a bad team makes him a max player. Particularly when the most important value a center has is anchoring a defense something he probably could do at a league average level if he wanted(we saw him do this for Phoenix before he decided nope his priority was his own offensive numbers), but he hasn't in 3 years now.

So maybe consider its not bias. It's he's a good but not great offensive center defending at a poor level over years now making max money. That's just not a max player no matter what his name is. And we have more productive discussions when we evaluate the player not start with some notion that people are just unfair to my team because uh reasons. :D


I didn't say any of that bs, don't put words in m mouth and make assumptions.
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#25 » by Wizenheimer » Sun Sep 15, 2024 4:05 pm

Godaddycurse wrote:
Pattycakes wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:The first is way too much for Ayton. The guy has zero motivation and work ethic, he's not returning this


The DA hate has gotten so real :lol:

A lot of Blazer fans love DA now, take what you want w that info. Keep the crap trades going tho


really? why?


it's not a lot of Blazer fans...it's just some. And most of those same fans love Anfernee Simons too. They are both 4th tier players who can only lead a team to purgatory, but apparently, that's enough for those Blazer fans. Ayton is a 4th option being paid like a 2nd option. And he's a C who can't protect the rim, set good screens, or pass well from the high post. Meaning he's deeply flawed and a mediocre C in the modern NBA
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#26 » by Godaddycurse » Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:14 pm

tester551 wrote: Fact is that Ayton will be paid $34M this next season. Considering Hartenstein got a $29M contract and Claxton got a $24M contract-> I would absolutely expect Ayton to get something in the $25-$30M range...

Yes - he's overpaid, but it's by about $5-$8M. He has some positive trade value.
The current narrative here is that he's deeply negative.


Eh i think his market value is closer to the Zubac/Poeltl range of ~19M.
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#27 » by Myth » Sun Sep 15, 2024 9:43 pm

Godaddycurse wrote:
tester551 wrote: Fact is that Ayton will be paid $34M this next season. Considering Hartenstein got a $29M contract and Claxton got a $24M contract-> I would absolutely expect Ayton to get something in the $25-$30M range...

Yes - he's overpaid, but it's by about $5-$8M. He has some positive trade value.
The current narrative here is that he's deeply negative.


Eh i think his market value is closer to the Zubac/Poeltl range of ~19M.

I couldn’t believe Hartenstein got the contract that he did. I believe soon that contract will be viewed as way overpriced. For that reason, I agree that his contract is not a good measuring stick, as both him and Ayton can both be overpaid.
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#28 » by pipfan » Sun Sep 15, 2024 10:33 pm

Even this out, and let’s get my Bulls in it

Nance/Vuc/Port 1st to Blazers
Capela to Chi
Ayton to Hawks

ATL gets an upgrade
Chi gets an expiring
Port gets a nice mentor for Clingan, plus their 1st back and and expiring Nance
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#29 » by JRoy » Sun Sep 15, 2024 10:58 pm

I like it.
Edrees wrote:
JRoy wrote:Monta Ellis have it all


I was hoping and expecting this to be one of the first replies. You did not disappoint. Jroy have it all.
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#30 » by Myth » Sun Sep 15, 2024 11:38 pm

pipfan wrote:Even this out, and let’s get my Bulls in it

Nance/Vuc/Port 1st to Blazers
Capela to Chi
Ayton to Hawks

ATL gets an upgrade
Chi gets an expiring
Port gets a nice mentor for Clingan, plus their 1st back and and expiring Nance

Works for me
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#31 » by Jody Smokz » Sun Sep 15, 2024 11:55 pm

If the Bulls were interested in moving a 1st they would be doing it in a Lavine deal not Vuc.

pipfan wrote:Even this out, and let’s get my Bulls in it

Nance/Vuc/Port 1st to Blazers
Capela to Chi
Ayton to Hawks

ATL gets an upgrade
Chi gets an expiring
Port gets a nice mentor for Clingan, plus their 1st back and and expiring Nance
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#32 » by JRoy » Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:59 am

Jody Smokz wrote:If the Bulls were interested in moving a 1st they would be doing it in a Lavine deal not Vuc.

pipfan wrote:Even this out, and let’s get my Bulls in it

Nance/Vuc/Port 1st to Blazers
Capela to Chi
Ayton to Hawks

ATL gets an upgrade
Chi gets an expiring
Port gets a nice mentor for Clingan, plus their 1st back and and expiring Nance


No deal with POR without the FRP.
Edrees wrote:
JRoy wrote:Monta Ellis have it all


I was hoping and expecting this to be one of the first replies. You did not disappoint. Jroy have it all.
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#33 » by tester551 » Mon Sep 16, 2024 3:55 am

Jody Smokz wrote:If the Bulls were interested in moving a 1st they would be doing it in a Lavine deal not Vuc.

pipfan wrote:Even this out, and let’s get my Bulls in it

Nance/Vuc/Port 1st to Blazers
Capela to Chi
Ayton to Hawks

ATL gets an upgrade
Chi gets an expiring
Port gets a nice mentor for Clingan, plus their 1st back and and expiring Nance


How about this:


Ayton to Hawks
Capella + Nance + Thybulle to Bulls
LaVine + Phillips (or Terry) + PDX pick returned to Blazers

This keeps all 3 teams out of the tax.
Portland takes a risk with Lavine in hopes if rehabilitating his value around the league

-------
Alternatively:

Ayton to Hawks
Grant + Nance to Bulls
LaVine + Capella + PDX pick returned to Blazers

I actually like this version a bit better just because it is cleaner.
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#34 » by JRoy » Mon Sep 16, 2024 4:08 am

Hardest of passes on Lavine.
Edrees wrote:
JRoy wrote:Monta Ellis have it all


I was hoping and expecting this to be one of the first replies. You did not disappoint. Jroy have it all.
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#35 » by Myth » Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:49 pm

tester551 wrote:
Jody Smokz wrote:If the Bulls were interested in moving a 1st they would be doing it in a Lavine deal not Vuc.

pipfan wrote:Even this out, and let’s get my Bulls in it

Nance/Vuc/Port 1st to Blazers
Capela to Chi
Ayton to Hawks

ATL gets an upgrade
Chi gets an expiring
Port gets a nice mentor for Clingan, plus their 1st back and and expiring Nance


How about this:


Ayton to Hawks
Capella + Nance + Thybulle to Bulls
LaVine + Phillips (or Terry) + PDX pick returned to Blazers

This keeps all 3 teams out of the tax.
Portland takes a risk with Lavine in hopes if rehabilitating his value around the league

-------
Alternatively:

Ayton to Hawks
Grant + Nance to Bulls
LaVine + Capella + PDX pick returned to Blazers

I actually like this version a bit better just because it is cleaner.


No way should Portland consider this. LaVine takes minutes from players we are developing. If he is still injured or bad, then he is just super expensive and not moveable. If he does well, then he messes up our tanking. That Portland pick is not nearly valuable enough to accept that. The 2nd trade is even worse because you have us also giving away Grant, who we are expected to receive some value for.
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Re: Atlanta - Portland 

Post#36 » by pipfan » Mon Sep 16, 2024 4:59 pm

Lavine only really fits in LA, or with Char. No way Port takes him back, but Vuc makes sense.

Bulls get Capela, who is better on D and expiring, for Vuc. If we could move Lavine for expirings we would have A TON of '25 cap space to play with

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