The Knicks get a full bench

[cgf]

When healthy we have 7 guys we'd be happy to start...Brunson / McBride / Hart / Bridges / Anunoby / Towns / Robinson...and Achiuwa, who was very good for us last season; so it wouldn't be the end of the world if he had to start next to Towns while Mitch is out. After that, Payne is a solid bench guy, and then it's the wildcards (the kids + Okeke/Shamet).

That's a strong 8 man rotation, when healthy...but with OG, KAT, & Mitch "when healthy" is a big qualifier. So to feel good about things, we should have, not just a 9th guy who can fill a low-minute shift, but options for when our starting frontcourt isn't fully healthy, like it won't be for the first couple months of the season.

Luckily the FO has time to assess what that final move they have left to make, should be. I.e. if KAT is struggling to protect the rim without Precious next to him, and neither Sims nor Hukporti are ready to give us good minutes off the bench while Achiuwa is starting. Then we'll probably loop back with Utah about turning Sims into Kessler using Dadiet + WSH FRP.

...but if Towns is holding up at the 5 against top teams in the regular season and/or one of our kids steps up as a viable backup in case Mitch gets hurt again, then we should be fine. In which case...assuming Dadiet isn't ready to contribute himself...we'll probably look to use those pieces to flip Shamet/Okeke for a better bench wing.

Which is why I don't see our FO rushing to make a move...especially not with Kolek, Dadiet, & Hukporti looking good so far, because we could end up feeling good about our depth even without a major move and just try dangle Shamet/Okeke + some SRPs for a minor upgrade.

[JayTWill]

Trades #1 and #2 amount to the Knicks trading away their disposable trash for the other teams' valuable players. Trade #2 is also mechanically impossible given that taking back more salary than they send out would cap the Knicks at the first apron, though that's a moot point given that the Wizards would never even consider the offer in the first place.

Trade #3 is more realistic but could not be executed until December 15th, as Payne cannot be traded until that date. But the Knicks would probably be hesitant in any case to trade a somewhat serviceable bench point guard for a washed-up third string center the likes of Cody Zeller.

Equating the value of a trade involving multiple rookies that haven't even played a single regular season game to disposable trash is a bit harsh. I'm not saying these pieces have a ton of value but I wouldn't be shocked if Tyler Kolek, an older rookie went on to have a equal or better career than someone like Corey Kispert who was also an older prospect that you did not compare to disposal trash. Both of them were looked at as more NBA ready, high floor, low ceiling guys.

I expect both of them to struggle defensively. Kispert is a better off-ball player that can attack a close out from time to time. Kolek will be a far better on-ball creator for himself and others imo. I know they were not directly traded for one another in this scenario but with the Knicks current lack of natural floor generals I would actually prefer keeping the rookie Kolek over trading for someone like Kispert despite the loss of DDV's shooting.

As a Knicks fan I didn't know much about Dadiet before he was drafted. I still don't. Maybe you took more time scouting him or maybe you just simply looked at his draft slot and decided his value. I don't know. Anyway he has only played one preseason game this year and he had a great second quarter so be prepared for 90-95% of Knicks to consider him untouchable for the next 2-3 years no matter what.

Read on Twitter

He did a good job making quick decisions to either attack or move the ball and did a great job relocating into open space. That doesn't change his value of course but it adds a little bit more substance to the conversation.

[Crymson]

Well how about DET trade for Kessler if he is worth so much ordo you think you guys don't need a such a great player like Kessler. If Kessler is so good he be traded by now and the Jazz would basking in a wealth of asset right now. It seem that
no GM is drinking that Kool-Aid that you two have.

Cool story. My suggestion to you is to do at least the most cursory of due diligence in the future before speaking. Ainge is asking multiple 1sts for him, and Ainge never lowers his prices. But have fun saying completely uninformed things like this instead, I guess.

And no, pick #25 in a bad draft, a 2nd-round pick in the same draft, and two future 2nds highly likely to fall in the 50s is not good value in exchange for Kessler even in a vacuum. I've said it again because you willfully ignored it the first time.

Also lets be clear, It was a DET fan calling Knicks players disposable trash.

Again: it's an expression. But you're proof positive of the concept, because you're overvaluing your team's assets in the context of claiming that they can be traded for an upgrade. Would you make the same claim if you were a Jazz fan? I doubt it, though I also doubt that you've put that level of thought into it.

Maybe DET can muster more than 54 wins in the next 4 years before calling Knicks player disposable trash.

What a counterargument! Surely being a fan of an unsuccessful team makes one incapable of properly evaluating trade assets. Good thinking!

Eh, Dadiet + Sims + WSH FRP is plenty fair for Kessler if we end up needing to upgrade our center depth...and I'm not sure it's a stretch to argue that Kolek + 2 SRPs is at least equivalent to that WSH FRP

Washington's first-round pick is effectively worth the two 2nds it's overwhelmingly likely to convert into given the protections on it. The Wizards are in full rebuild mode, and they'll do whatever they must to keep that pick.

Future 2nds from Minnesota and OKC, teams highly likely to still be quite good in 2027 and 2028, respectively, are worth even less. The probability of turning a pick in the 50s into an NBA rotation player is extremely low. What you're suggesting here is pick 25 in a very weak draft plus pick 34 in the same draft plus a non-rotation-caliber 2nd plus those two bad 2nds. Even irrespective of Ainge's asset demands, how is that adequate value for the Jazz?

Equating the value of a trade involving multiple rookies that haven't even played a single regular season game to disposable trash is a bit harsh.

As I've said, it's an expression: trash for treasure. In the sports sense, it means trading a team's fully disposable parts for real value. That a common fan fantasy; the fact that such trades are extremely rare and involve management ineptitude that rarely exists in today's league doesn't stop legions of fans from hoping for it anyway.

The last such trade I can remember of that sort in the NBA was the Tobias Harris trade back in 2016, and that came at the hands of a comically inept GM in Orlando.

Anyway he has only played one preseason game this year and he had a great second quarter so be prepared for 90-95% of Knicks to consider him untouchable for the next 2-3 years no matter what.

Haha, well said.

That doesn't change his value of course but it adds a little bit more substance to the conversation.

I consider preseason to have virtually no value in predicting future outcomes.

[taikibansei]

Well how about DET trade for Kessler if he is worth so much ordo you think you guys don't need a such a great player like Kessler. If Kessler is so good he be traded by now and the Jazz would basking in a wealth of asset right now. It seem that
no GM is drinking that Kool-Aid that you two have.

Cool story. My suggestion to you is to do at least the most cursory of due diligence in the future before speaking. Ainge is asking multiple 1sts for him, and Ainge never lowers his prices. . But have fun saying completely uninformed things like this instead, I guess

You write this like it matters to player valuations or like we should care. Knicks fans didn't propose this trade. Full stop. I've seen no evidence that the Knicks organization is seriously pursuing Kessler. Full stop. Accordingly, Ainge could be asking for a zillion 1sts for Kessler, we're most likely not trading for him at any price (let alone what Ainge is supposedly demanding), making this whole exchange kind of strange. And finally, while I could be wrong, I sincerely doubt any other team is going to give out "multiple 1sts" for Kessler either.

This doesn't mean Kessler's a bad player--he's a good player--just that if what you say is true, then Ainge is likely overvaluing him. That happens. I mean, I could show up at a used car expo in my decked out 2017 Buick Enclave shouting, "Give me $30,000 cash or I'm taking this baby home," but that doesn't mean anybody will give me $30,000 for it (or should), right?

[Rockazoids]

Well how about DET trade for Kessler if he is worth so much ordo you think you guys don't need a such a great player like Kessler. If Kessler is so good he be traded by now and the Jazz would basking in a wealth of asset right now. It seem that
no GM is drinking that Kool-Aid that you two have.

Cool story. My suggestion to you is to do at least the most cursory of due diligence in the future before speaking. Ainge is asking multiple 1sts for him, and Ainge never lowers his prices. But have fun saying completely uninformed things like this instead, I guess.

And no, pick #25 in a bad draft, a 2nd-round pick in the same draft, and two future 2nds highly likely to fall in the 50s is not good value in exchange for Kessler even in a vacuum. I've said it again because you willfully ignored it the first time.

Also lets be clear, It was a DET fan calling Knicks players disposable trash.

Again: it's an expression. But you're proof positive of the concept, because you're overvaluing your team's assets in the context of claiming that they can be traded for an upgrade. Would you make the same claim if you were a Jazz fan? I doubt it, though I also doubt that you've put that level of thought into it.

Maybe DET can muster more than 54 wins in the next 4 years before calling Knicks player disposable trash.

What a counterargument! Surely being a fan of an unsuccessful team makes one incapable of properly evaluating trade assets. Good thinking!

Look buddy your suggestion is about as good as your talent evaluation, rather off.
No one is overvaluing the Knicks player, just not valuing what's being offer.
It seems that you are overvaluing Bey because he was a Pistons, you must have some attachment to him.
Also I'm not the one saying to trade the Knicks player for a upgrade(which these guys all not). So you should be talking to the
OP about that.

[JayTWill]

Equating the value of a trade involving multiple rookies that haven't even played a single regular season game to disposable trash is a bit harsh.

As I've said, it's an expression: trash for treasure. In the sports sense, it means trading a team's fully disposable parts for real value. That a common fan fantasy; the fact that such trades are extremely rare and involve management ineptitude that rarely exists in today's league doesn't stop legions of fans from hoping for it anyway.

The last such trade I can remember of that sort in the NBA was the Tobias Harris trade back in 2016, and that came at the hands of a comically inept GM in Orlando.

Anyway he has only played one preseason game this year and he had a great second quarter so be prepared for 90-95% of Knicks to consider him untouchable for the next 2-3 years no matter what.

Haha, well said.

That doesn't change his value of course but it adds a little bit more substance to the conversation.

I consider preseason to have virtually no value in predicting future outcomes.

Yeah, your phrasing makes it difficult to see how you are actually valuing the players involved in the deal though without any analysis of their skillets, fits and team needs. I could see Utah turning down the first deal but if you took that same Knicks package and offered it for Kispert I would consider it an overpay.

Utah may want to keep a quality 23 year old defensive center with 2 years left on his deal next to Markkanen while trying to fill in the pieces around them. On the flip side I could easily see the Wizards moving on from Kispert at 25 years old as a one way player on the last year of his rookie contract and many years before the team is truly competitive again.

I don't really know how to differentiate how you are valuing the "trash" and the "treasure". I know you stated where some of the Knicks' players were drafted and referred to reports about how Ainge values his players. I don't put too much weight into random reports. I believe it was reported last year that Ainge wanted a quality first round pick for Olynyk. He ended up trading Olynyk along with a recent lottery pick Agbaji for the 29th pick in what you consider to be a weak draft.

In the end I don't think this trade proposal is a great use of the Knicks limited assets. They currently only have 12 players under contract with one of them being out until possibly 2025. They currently only have enough capspace left to sign 1 vet min and and 1 zero years of service player. These trades would leave the Knicks with 11 players requiring 1 vet min and 2 zero years of service players to get to the minimum of 14 players. Thinning out the end of bench further for a team with multiple injury prone players to add a 3rd center and another one way role player isn't a great idea imo.

I would love to add Kessler especially if Mitch's contract could be used to improve the bench but his value is probably non-existent at this point. I do think Pacome would be a good fit in Utah's offense with all the motion and screening and I could see Kolek being the best natural point guard on their roster immediately but I doubt they want to add another poor defensive small guard to the roster at the expense of Kessler.

As a Knicks' fan I am reluctant to give up Kolek since the team lacks on-ball creators and I worry Thibs' offense will devolve into Brunson and Payne pounding the ball and jacking shots as it does many times. I would also like to get a look at Pacome and may hope to find a cheaper trade solution for center depth such as Goga later down the line if he becomes available.

[cgf]

Well how about DET trade for Kessler if he is worth so much ordo you think you guys don't need a such a great player like Kessler. If Kessler is so good he be traded by now and the Jazz would basking in a wealth of asset right now. It seem that
no GM is drinking that Kool-Aid that you two have.

Cool story. My suggestion to you is to do at least the most cursory of due diligence in the future before speaking. Ainge is asking multiple 1sts for him, and Ainge never lowers his prices. But have fun saying completely uninformed things like this instead, I guess.

And no, pick #25 in a bad draft, a 2nd-round pick in the same draft, and two future 2nds highly likely to fall in the 50s is not good value in exchange for Kessler even in a vacuum. I've said it again because you willfully ignored it the first time.

Also lets be clear, It was a DET fan calling Knicks players disposable trash.

Again: it's an expression. But you're proof positive of the concept, because you're overvaluing your team's assets in the context of claiming that they can be traded for an upgrade. Would you make the same claim if you were a Jazz fan? I doubt it, though I also doubt that you've put that level of thought into it.

Maybe DET can muster more than 54 wins in the next 4 years before calling Knicks player disposable trash.

What a counterargument! Surely being a fan of an unsuccessful team makes one incapable of properly evaluating trade assets. Good thinking!

Eh, Dadiet + Sims + WSH FRP is plenty fair for Kessler if we end up needing to upgrade our center depth...and I'm not sure it's a stretch to argue that Kolek + 2 SRPs is at least equivalent to that WSH FRP

Washington's first-round pick is effectively worth the two 2nds it's overwhelmingly likely to convert into given the protections on it. The Wizards are in full rebuild mode, and they'll do whatever they must to keep that pick.

Future 2nds from Minnesota and OKC, teams highly likely to still be quite good in 2027 and 2028, respectively, are worth even less. The probability of turning a pick in the 50s into an NBA rotation player is extremely low. What you're suggesting here is pick 25 in a very weak draft plus pick 34 in the same draft plus a non-rotation-caliber 2nd plus those two bad 2nds. Even irrespective of Ainge's asset demands, how is that adequate value for the Jazz?

Equating the value of a trade involving multiple rookies that haven't even played a single regular season game to disposable trash is a bit harsh.

As I've said, it's an expression: trash for treasure. In the sports sense, it means trading a team's fully disposable parts for real value. That a common fan fantasy; the fact that such trades are extremely rare and involve management ineptitude that rarely exists in today's league doesn't stop legions of fans from hoping for it anyway.

The last such trade I can remember of that sort in the NBA was the Tobias Harris trade back in 2016, and that came at the hands of a comically inept GM in Orlando.

Anyway he has only played one preseason game this year and he had a great second quarter so be prepared for 90-95% of Knicks to consider him untouchable for the next 2-3 years no matter what.

Haha, well said.

That doesn't change his value of course but it adds a little bit more substance to the conversation.

I consider preseason to have virtually no value in predicting future outcomes.

You should take a look at ainge’s trade history, with particular attention to his non-star trades. This may be an overpay compared to what ainge usually gets for his role players



Also feels like you’re making my argument for me, if that WSH FRP was more likely to convey…like the DET FRP was…then Kolek probably wouldn’t be enough to make up the difference between the picks, but since that is most likely to be two SRPs, Kolek could easily bridge that gap if an FO rates him.

Which is a variable you don’t seem to be considering, prospects don’t have universal value, their value fluctuates wildly from scout to scout and from FO to FO. How any of us rates these kids doesn’t matter, what matters is whether a specific FO thinks a kid is trash, treasure, or something in between that intrigues them.

Like I suspect Dadiet was selected because our FO knew that he was rated by someone they were discussing a trade with…he doesn’t fit our MO in the draft or timeline. Whereas he would be exactly rhe kind of prospect Utah would like to add.

[cgf]

Equating the value of a trade involving multiple rookies that haven't even played a single regular season game to disposable trash is a bit harsh.

As I've said, it's an expression: trash for treasure. In the sports sense, it means trading a team's fully disposable parts for real value. That a common fan fantasy; the fact that such trades are extremely rare and involve management ineptitude that rarely exists in today's league doesn't stop legions of fans from hoping for it anyway.

The last such trade I can remember of that sort in the NBA was the Tobias Harris trade back in 2016, and that came at the hands of a comically inept GM in Orlando.

Anyway he has only played one preseason game this year and he had a great second quarter so be prepared for 90-95% of Knicks to consider him untouchable for the next 2-3 years no matter what.

Haha, well said.

That doesn't change his value of course but it adds a little bit more substance to the conversation.

I consider preseason to have virtually no value in predicting future outcomes.

Yeah, your phrasing makes it difficult to see how you are actually valuing the players involved in the deal though without any analysis of their skillets, fits and team needs. I could see Utah turning down the first deal but if you took that same Knicks package and offered it for Kispert I would consider it an overpay.

Utah may want to keep a quality 23 year old defensive center with 2 years left on his deal next to Markkanen while trying to fill in the pieces around them. On the flip side I could easily see the Wizards moving on from Kispert at 25 years old as a one way player on the last year of his rookie contract and many years before the team is truly competitive again.

I don't really know how to differentiate how you are valuing the "trash" and the "treasure". I know you stated where some of the Knicks' players were drafted and referred to reports about how Ainge values his players. I don't put too much weight into random reports. I believe it was reported last year that Ainge wanted a quality first round pick for Olynyk. He ended up trading Olynyk along with a recent lottery pick Agbaji for the 29th pick in what you consider to be a weak draft.

In the end I don't think this trade proposal is a great use of the Knicks limited assets. They currently only have 12 players under contract with one of them being out until possibly 2025. They currently only have enough capspace left to sign 1 vet min and and 1 zero years of service player. These trades would leave the Knicks with 11 players requiring 1 vet min and 2 zero years of service players to get to the minimum of 14 players. Thinning out the end of bench further for a team with multiple injury prone players to add a 3rd center and another one way role player isn't a great idea imo.

I would love to add Kessler especially if Mitch's contract could be used to improve the bench but his value is probably non-existent at this point. I do think Pacome would be a good fit in Utah's offense with all the motion and screening and I could see Kolek being the best natural point guard on their roster immediately but I doubt they want to add another poor defensive small guard to the roster at the expense of Kessler.

As a Knicks' fan I am reluctant to give up Kolek since the team lacks on-ball creators and I worry Thibs' offense will devolve into Brunson and Payne pounding the ball and jacking shots as it does many times. I would also like to get a look at Pacome and may hope to find a cheaper trade solution for center depth such as Goga later down the line if he becomes available.

Our FO is most likely going to get that look at our kids in regular season before any trade happens. For all we know Kessler could be totally superfluous if Towns can hold up at the 5 against top teams and/or one of Sims / Hukporti can give us good backup minutes. Then even with Mitch we’d be 3 deep at center.

Similarly if Kolek can defend at an NBA level and give our bench some creation, suddenly our guard depth would be excellent with 3 quality rotation guys on our bench. And if Dadiet (somehow) looks like he’ll be ready for PT by the playoffs all of sudden our wing depth would worry me a lot less.

Or we could find that we need reinforcements at the 5, on the wing, and at guard. This is why we probably won’t see anything until December-January if the team is winning.

[taikibansei]

As I've said, it's an expression: trash for treasure. In the sports sense, it means trading a team's fully disposable parts for real value. That a common fan fantasy; the fact that such trades are extremely rare and involve management ineptitude that rarely exists in today's league doesn't stop legions of fans from hoping for it anyway.

The last such trade I can remember of that sort in the NBA was the Tobias Harris trade back in 2016, and that came at the hands of a comically inept GM in Orlando.



Haha, well said.



I consider preseason to have virtually no value in predicting future outcomes.

Yeah, your phrasing makes it difficult to see how you are actually valuing the players involved in the deal though without any analysis of their skillets, fits and team needs. I could see Utah turning down the first deal but if you took that same Knicks package and offered it for Kispert I would consider it an overpay.

Utah may want to keep a quality 23 year old defensive center with 2 years left on his deal next to Markkanen while trying to fill in the pieces around them. On the flip side I could easily see the Wizards moving on from Kispert at 25 years old as a one way player on the last year of his rookie contract and many years before the team is truly competitive again.

I don't really know how to differentiate how you are valuing the "trash" and the "treasure". I know you stated where some of the Knicks' players were drafted and referred to reports about how Ainge values his players. I don't put too much weight into random reports. I believe it was reported last year that Ainge wanted a quality first round pick for Olynyk. He ended up trading Olynyk along with a recent lottery pick Agbaji for the 29th pick in what you consider to be a weak draft.

In the end I don't think this trade proposal is a great use of the Knicks limited assets. They currently only have 12 players under contract with one of them being out until possibly 2025. They currently only have enough capspace left to sign 1 vet min and and 1 zero years of service player. These trades would leave the Knicks with 11 players requiring 1 vet min and 2 zero years of service players to get to the minimum of 14 players. Thinning out the end of bench further for a team with multiple injury prone players to add a 3rd center and another one way role player isn't a great idea imo.

I would love to add Kessler especially if Mitch's contract could be used to improve the bench but his value is probably non-existent at this point. I do think Pacome would be a good fit in Utah's offense with all the motion and screening and I could see Kolek being the best natural point guard on their roster immediately but I doubt they want to add another poor defensive small guard to the roster at the expense of Kessler.

As a Knicks' fan I am reluctant to give up Kolek since the team lacks on-ball creators and I worry Thibs' offense will devolve into Brunson and Payne pounding the ball and jacking shots as it does many times. I would also like to get a look at Pacome and may hope to find a cheaper trade solution for center depth such as Goga later down the line if he becomes available.

Our FO is most likely going to get that look at our kids in regular season before any trade happens. For all we know Kessler could be totally superfluous if Towns can hold up at the 5 against top teams and/or one of Sims / Hukporti can give us good backup minutes. Then even with Mitch we’d be 3 deep at center.

Similarly if Kolek can defend at an NBA level and give our bench some creation, suddenly our guard depth would be excellent with 3 quality rotation guys on our bench. And if Dadiet (somehow) looks like he’ll be ready for PT by the playoffs all of sudden our wing depth would worry me a lot less.

Or we could find that we need reinforcements at the 5, on the wing, and at guard. This is why we probably won’t see anything until December-January if the team is winning.

Our front office is likely far more concerned with the fact that Mikal Bridges chose this summer to "fix" his shot (and now can't hit the side of a barn), and how this plus the Shamet injury potentially leave us screwed at the wing positions. At the 4/5, we have Towns, Precious (played extremely well but waiting on the injury update), Robinson (coming back December/January), OG in a pinch, Sims and Hukporti--this and the point guard position are our strongest imo and don't need an immediate fix.

Hopefully, Mikal's shooting improves, and soon. If Mikal can't find where he left his shot, though, he's going to be nearly unplayable...and we're going to have to scramble to find players to supplement that position from the bench. That will suddenly become our weakest position, and if we're going to overpay in a trade, it will be to address this.