Cle / Atl

[JJ_PR]

Cavs get: De'Andre Hunter and Cody Zeller
Hawks get: Caris LeVert, Georges Niang and two 2nds ('25 and '26 via Cavs)

Why?
Cleveland adds a wing.
Hawks unload Hunter and add a coach favorite.

PG: Darius Garland / Ty Jerome / Craig Porter Jr.
SG: Donovan Mitchell / Max Strus / Sam Merrill
SF: De'Andre Hunter / Isaac Okoro / Jaylon Tyson
PF: Evan Mobley / Dean Wade
C: Jarrett Allen / Cody Zeller / Tristan Thompson
Coach: Kenny Atkinson

[toooskies]

Don't love Hunter or his contract. The Cavs may be looking forward to shedding LeVert's salary rather than bringing on a long-term salary there.

Hunter's defense is also an issue that I'm not sure the Cavs want to run with the starters.

[jbk1234]

I prefer DFS as the target if we're taking on long-term money.

[tidho]

Don't love Hunter or his contract. The Cavs may be looking forward to shedding LeVert's salary rather than bringing on a long-term salary there.

Hunter's defense is also an issue that I'm not sure the Cavs want to run with the starters.

No issue with the OP trade, but certainly nothing special either.

Commenting because of your comment about LeVert's salary. They better not be looking to let that expire, there's now way to get better if they get capped and don't have blocks of cap to work with. Absolutely have to move that deal, or they'll be forced to (ugh) commit to him further in the off season.

[HornetJail]

Don't love Hunter or his contract. The Cavs may be looking forward to shedding LeVert's salary rather than bringing on a long-term salary there.

Hunter's defense is also an issue that I'm not sure the Cavs want to run with the starters.

No issue with the OP trade, but certainly nothing special either.

Commenting because of your comment about LeVert's salary. They better not be looking to let that expire, there's now way to get better if they get capped and don't have blocks of cap to work with. Absolutely have to move that deal, or they'll be forced to (ugh) commit to him further in the off season.

they have over $180M committed in just Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, Allen, Strus, Okoro for the next 3 years (some longer than that). Unless they're cool with dipping into the second apron for multiple years, letting some expirings walk for when Mobley's enormous kicks in, is probably the likely scenario. Only way I see them doing the opposite is for a SF much better than DeAndre Hunter who actually pushes them to contender status.

[jbk1234]

Don't love Hunter or his contract. The Cavs may be looking forward to shedding LeVert's salary rather than bringing on a long-term salary there.

Hunter's defense is also an issue that I'm not sure the Cavs want to run with the starters.

No issue with the OP trade, but certainly nothing special either.

Commenting because of your comment about LeVert's salary. They better not be looking to let that expire, there's now way to get better if they get capped and don't have blocks of cap to work with. Absolutely have to move that deal, or they'll be forced to (ugh) commit to him further in the off season.

they have over $180M committed in just Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, Allen, Strus, Okoro for the next 3 years (some longer than that). Unless they're cool with dipping into the second apron for multiple years, letting some expirings walk for when Mobley's enormous kicks in, is probably the likely scenario. Only way I see them doing the opposite is for a SF much better than DeAndre Hunter who actually pushes them to contender status.

Way too many Cavs fans think it's going to be like LBJ's second stint where they pay everybody and let Gilbert pay the luxury tax bill. The new CBA simply doesn't allow for it. Maybe you add a second year with a guy like DFS who makes slightly less than LeVert on an annual basis. I also suspect that one of Allen or Okoro might get traded at the deadline though. Finally, if we can dump Niang for seconds at the deadline or nrxt summer, that'll happen.

[toooskies]

No issue with the OP trade, but certainly nothing special either.

Commenting because of your comment about LeVert's salary. They better not be looking to let that expire, there's now way to get better if they get capped and don't have blocks of cap to work with. Absolutely have to move that deal, or they'll be forced to (ugh) commit to him further in the off season.

they have over $180M committed in just Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, Allen, Strus, Okoro for the next 3 years (some longer than that). Unless they're cool with dipping into the second apron for multiple years, letting some expirings walk for when Mobley's enormous kicks in, is probably the likely scenario. Only way I see them doing the opposite is for a SF much better than DeAndre Hunter who actually pushes them to contender status.

Way too many Cavs fans think it's going to be like LBJ's second stint where they pay everybody and let Gilbert pay the luxury tax bill. The new CBA simply doesn't allow for it. Maybe you add a second year with a guy like DFS who makes slightly less than LeVert on an annual basis. I also suspect that one of Allen or Okoro might get traded at the deadline though. Finally, if we can dump Niang for seconds at the deadline or nrxt summer, that'll happen.

Yep. The most you can expect Dan Gilbert to spend is going above the 2nd apron in 25-26 and 26-27, unless the Cavs win a title in one of those two years in which case he might allow it a little longer.

Which works out conveniently with Hunter's contract which expires in the summer of '27, but I imagine guys like Merrill and Jerome would be financial casualties in that scenario.

[jbk1234]

they have over $180M committed in just Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, Allen, Strus, Okoro for the next 3 years (some longer than that). Unless they're cool with dipping into the second apron for multiple years, letting some expirings walk for when Mobley's enormous kicks in, is probably the likely scenario. Only way I see them doing the opposite is for a SF much better than DeAndre Hunter who actually pushes them to contender status.

Way too many Cavs fans think it's going to be like LBJ's second stint where they pay everybody and let Gilbert pay the luxury tax bill. The new CBA simply doesn't allow for it. Maybe you add a second year with a guy like DFS who makes slightly less than LeVert on an annual basis. I also suspect that one of Allen or Okoro might get traded at the deadline though. Finally, if we can dump Niang for seconds at the deadline or nrxt summer, that'll happen.

Yep. The most you can expect Dan Gilbert to spend is going above the 2nd apron in 25-26 and 26-27, unless the Cavs win a title in one of those two years in which case he might allow it a little longer.

Which works out conveniently with Hunter's contract which expires in the summer of '27, but I imagine guys like Merrill and Jerome would be financial casualties in that scenario.

It's not just Gilbert's money. We made a trade every season during LBJ's second stint. If you're over the second apron, that's not a thing. It's hard to contend with a locked roster.

[toooskies]

Way too many Cavs fans think it's going to be like LBJ's second stint where they pay everybody and let Gilbert pay the luxury tax bill. The new CBA simply doesn't allow for it. Maybe you add a second year with a guy like DFS who makes slightly less than LeVert on an annual basis. I also suspect that one of Allen or Okoro might get traded at the deadline though. Finally, if we can dump Niang for seconds at the deadline or nrxt summer, that'll happen.

Yep. The most you can expect Dan Gilbert to spend is going above the 2nd apron in 25-26 and 26-27, unless the Cavs win a title in one of those two years in which case he might allow it a little longer.

Which works out conveniently with Hunter's contract which expires in the summer of '27, but I imagine guys like Merrill
Land Jerome would be financial casualties in that scenario.

It's not just Gilbert's money. We made a trade every season during LBJ's second stint. If you're over the second apron, that's not a thing. It's hard to contend with a locked roster.

Minnesota has made multiple trades while being over the 2nd apron this off-season. Yes, it's harder to make trades above the 2nd apron. But you can still make moves. The Cavs could still do LeVert + 2nds for DFS, for instance.

[axeman23]

Don't love Hunter or his contract. The Cavs may be looking forward to shedding LeVert's salary rather than bringing on a long-term salary there.

Hunter's defense is also an issue that I'm not sure the Cavs want to run with the starters.

No issue with the OP trade, but certainly nothing special either.

Commenting because of your comment about LeVert's salary. They better not be looking to let that expire, there's now way to get better if they get capped and don't have blocks of cap to work with. Absolutely have to move that deal, or they'll be forced to (ugh) commit to him further in the off season.

Yeah, it's my understanding (rightly or wrongly) that as we're over the cap, if we just let Levert expire, we lose his "salary slot", in which case we have to replace him with someone on the minimum or on some kind of exception. Would that be correct? If so, it doesn't make sense to be putting in so much money into our core 4, then just surrounding them with minimum-wagers. Because then the effect of 1 or more of those core 4 being out is magnified much more than if we just had a big 2/medium 3, and more depth. I appreciate it's much easier to spend someone else's money (in this case, Gilbert's), but the better the team, the further they go, and more money they earn for their owner, right?

[jbk1234]

Yep. The most you can expect Dan Gilbert to spend is going above the 2nd apron in 25-26 and 26-27, unless the Cavs win a title in one of those two years in which case he might allow it a little longer.

Which works out conveniently with Hunter's contract which expires in the summer of '27, but I imagine guys like Merrill
Land Jerome would be financial casualties in that scenario.

It's not just Gilbert's money. We made a trade every season during LBJ's second stint. If you're over the second apron, that's not a thing. It's hard to contend with a locked roster.

Minnesota has made multiple trades while being over the 2nd apron this off-season. Yes, it's harder to make trades above the 2nd apron. But you can still make moves. The Cavs could still do LeVert + 2nds for DFS, for instance.

Yeah, they traded additional unprotected draft capital for draft rights and a core player for less salary coming back. Those are the types of trades you get to make when you're over the second apron.

During LBJ's second run, the Cavs were able to add JR, Shump, Mozgov, Frye, Korver, Nance, Hood, George Hill, and Clarkson. We traded a lot of 1sts (we have none), cap space via trade exceptions (again none if you're over the 2nd apron), and aggregated salaries (also prohibited if over the second apron). We also signed Richard Jefferson with the taxMLE (can't use over the second apron).

[toooskies]

It's not just Gilbert's money. We made a trade every season during LBJ's second stint. If you're over the second apron, that's not a thing. It's hard to contend with a locked roster.

Minnesota has made multiple trades while being over the 2nd apron this off-season. Yes, it's harder to make trades above the 2nd apron. But you can still make moves. The Cavs could still do LeVert + 2nds for DFS, for instance.

Yeah, they traded additional unprotected draft capital for draft rights and a core player for less salary coming back. Those are the types of trades you get to make when you're over the second apron.

During LBJ's second run, the Cavs were able to add JR, Shump, Mozgov, Frye, Korver, Nance, Hood, George Hill, and Clarkson. We traded a lot of 1sts (we have none), cap space via trade exceptions (again none if you're over the 2nd apron), and aggregated salaries (also prohibited if over the second apron). We also signed Richard Jefferson with the taxMLE (can't use over the second apron).

The 2015 team also wasn't really a fully constructed roster in the first place. We had just cleared space to sign LeBron, after all. But ultimately all those teams had much wider holes than the current Cavs roster. We don't need a JR when we have Strus, we don't need a Korver when we have Merrill. We have one tradable pick and a recent draftee in addition to player value.

JR, Shump, and Mozgov were added in 2014-15 where the cost was effectively Dion Waiters and 2nds and there weren't cap constraints. Jefferson was signed before Tristan Thompson's deal which landed the Cavs in the higher tax levels.

Frye came over in a deal where we sent out a bigger salary (Varejao) to get him. No aggregation, but a 1st went out.

We needed to aggregate (barely) to get Korver and added a protected 1st that didn't convey, turned into 2nds.

Didn't need to aggregate to get Hill, he made less than Shump. Didn't need to aggregate to get Hood, he made less than Crowder. Draft capital was 2nds.

We did have to aggregate to get Clarkson/Nance and sent out a late 1st, but that was mostly for Nance who was more prospect for the next phase of the Cavs than playoff contributor.

Honestly many/most of those transactions are very possible or similar in 2nd apron land, but that churn in and of itself was a bad thing. You don't win titles with vastly different rosters every year. No continuity or culture. Culture guys or prospects shipped out for quick fixes or draft capital for the next trade? That's not how you keep guys like Mitchell and Mobley in town.

[jbk1234]

Minnesota has made multiple trades while being over the 2nd apron this off-season. Yes, it's harder to make trades above the 2nd apron. But you can still make moves. The Cavs could still do LeVert + 2nds for DFS, for instance.

Yeah, they traded additional unprotected draft capital for draft rights and a core player for less salary coming back. Those are the types of trades you get to make when you're over the second apron.

During LBJ's second run, the Cavs were able to add JR, Shump, Mozgov, Frye, Korver, Nance, Hood, George Hill, and Clarkson. We traded a lot of 1sts (we have none), cap space via trade exceptions (again none if you're over the 2nd apron), and aggregated salaries (also prohibited if over the second apron). We also signed Richard Jefferson with the taxMLE (can't use over the second apron).

The 2015 team also wasn't really a fully constructed roster in the first place. We had just cleared space to sign LeBron, after all. But ultimately all those teams had much wider holes than the current Cavs roster. We don't need a JR when we have Strus, we don't need a Korver when we have Merrill. We have one tradable pick and a recent draftee in addition to player value.

JR, Shump, and Mozgov were added in 2014-15 where the cost was effectively Dion Waiters and 2nds and there weren't cap constraints. Jefferson was signed before Tristan Thompson's deal which landed the Cavs in the higher tax levels.

Frye came over in a deal where we sent out a bigger salary (Varejao) to get him. No aggregation, but a 1st went out.

We needed to aggregate (barely) to get Korver and added a protected 1st that didn't convey, turned into 2nds.

Didn't need to aggregate to get Hill, he made less than Shump. Didn't need to aggregate to get Hood, he made less than Crowder. Draft capital was 2nds.

We did have to aggregate to get Clarkson/Nance and sent out a late 1st, but that was mostly for Nance who was more prospect for the next phase of the Cavs than playoff contributor.

Honestly many/most of those transactions are very possible or similar in 2nd apron land, but that churn in and of itself was a bad thing. You don't win titles with vastly different rosters every year. No continuity or culture. Culture guys or prospects shipped out for quick fixes or draft capital for the next trade? That's not how you keep guys like Mitchell and Mobley in town.

Hill made twice what Shump made. We did have to aggregate. Pretty sure we created a TPE when we dumped AV on Portland, either then or when we dumped Haywood's non-guaranteed deal. Possibly both. In any event, I would not jump into the 2nd apron for a journeyman. It foreclosures too many future opportunities.

[toooskies]

Yeah, they traded additional unprotected draft capital for draft rights and a core player for less salary coming back. Those are the types of trades you get to make when you're over the second apron.

During LBJ's second run, the Cavs were able to add JR, Shump, Mozgov, Frye, Korver, Nance, Hood, George Hill, and Clarkson. We traded a lot of 1sts (we have none), cap space via trade exceptions (again none if you're over the 2nd apron), and aggregated salaries (also prohibited if over the second apron). We also signed Richard Jefferson with the taxMLE (can't use over the second apron).

The 2015 team also wasn't really a fully constructed roster in the first place. We had just cleared space to sign LeBron, after all. But ultimately all those teams had much wider holes than the current Cavs roster. We don't need a JR when we have Strus, we don't need a Korver when we have Merrill. We have one tradable pick and a recent draftee in addition to player value.

JR, Shump, and Mozgov were added in 2014-15 where the cost was effectively Dion Waiters and 2nds and there weren't cap constraints. Jefferson was signed before Tristan Thompson's deal which landed the Cavs in the higher tax levels.

Frye came over in a deal where we sent out a bigger salary (Varejao) to get him. No aggregation, but a 1st went out.

We needed to aggregate (barely) to get Korver and added a protected 1st that didn't convey, turned into 2nds.

Didn't need to aggregate to get Hill, he made less than Shump. Didn't need to aggregate to get Hood, he made less than Crowder. Draft capital was 2nds.

We did have to aggregate to get Clarkson/Nance and sent out a late 1st, but that was mostly for Nance who was more prospect for the next phase of the Cavs than playoff contributor.

Honestly many/most of those transactions are very possible or similar in 2nd apron land, but that churn in and of itself was a bad thing. You don't win titles with vastly different rosters every year. No continuity or culture. Culture guys or prospects shipped out for quick fixes or draft capital for the next trade? That's not how you keep guys like Mitchell and Mobley in town.

Hill made twice what Shump made. We did have to aggregate. Pretty sure we created a TPE when we dumped AV on Portland, either then or when we dumped Haywood's non-guaranteed deal. Possibly both. In any event, I would not jump into the 2nd apron for a journeyman. It foreclosures too many future opportunities.

You're right, I was looking at the previous year on Hill.

I'm not saying that it'll be easy to trade in the second apron, particularly if so much of the league continues to hover right at the tax line. I'm saying that there's plenty of moves available to still make. But there's no leverage for teams trying to acquire win-now players given that 2/3rds of the league makes the postseason and another few teams are typically still trying to make it there at the trade deadline. Retaining playable guys makes trades more possible than not having anything of interest.

The Cavs very well might try to avoid the 2nd apron-- Altman spoke about it before media day and discussed it with a lot of caution. But it's clear the philosophy with this team and roster so far has been to keep the roster together. We'll see how far that extends to guys like LeVert, who probably has more cred with the locker room than he does with the fans and NBA media these days-- I could see him coming back on a sub-NTMLE deal. We'll see how much buy-in guys like Merrill and Jerome have to the team when they become free agents next year and might need to leave to find consistent NBA minutes and real salaries. We'll see if Tyson, Bates, or Travers can step up and replace guys who leave. It's at least an option to retain everyone at reasonable individual cost, or consolidate contracts now so that we don't need to aggregate over the 2nd apron.

[shakes0]

EZ Pass for Hawks. They need length and defense, getting rid of Hunter for Levert is the opposite of that.