Magic/Pacers/TWolves fine tuning

[8305]

Why would the Wolves do that?

Yeah, I wouldn’t expect TWolves to go for that either. For Indiana you probably don’t solve the need for a significant defensive upgrade and eliminate salary all in one transaction.
I’d see it as step one get the elite defender. Step two move salary as needed.

This adds salary for Indy, though?

If someone took Obie into cap space would that reduce payroll below the cap?

[Scoot McGroot]

Yeah, I wouldn’t expect TWolves to go for that either. For Indiana you probably don’t solve the need for a significant defensive upgrade and eliminate salary all in one transaction.
I’d see it as step one get the elite defender. Step two move salary as needed.

This adds salary for Indy, though?

If someone took Obie into cap space would that reduce payroll below the cap?

If Indy traded Obi/Nesmith for McDaniels it’s at least cap neutral, and maybe adding salary depending on how Indy treats that opened 15th spot. Obi/Nesmith this year is $24m, then $25m, and then $26m. McDaniels is $23m, $25m, and then $26.7m. Fill that opened spot with a standard vet minimum, and it’s equal salary to adding salary every year. And it makes it so Indy couldn’t just keep Nesmith and trade Obi into space to save cash, if need be. Can’t trade off “half” off McDaniels, so to speak.

But for Indy, it wouldn’t put a Indy below the cos to trade Obi into space. It would open up another $13m of luxury tax space this year and next.

[winforlose]

This adds salary for Indy, though?

If someone took Obie into cap space would that reduce payroll below the cap?

If Indy traded Obi/Nesmith for McDaniels it’s at least cap neutral, and maybe adding salary depending on how Indy treats that opened 15th spot. Obi/Nesmith this year is $24m, then $25m, and then $26m. McDaniels is $23m, $25m, and then $26.7m. Fill that opened spot with a standard vet minimum, and it’s equal salary to adding salary every year. And it makes it so Indy couldn’t just keep Nesmith and trade Obi into space to save cash, if need be. Can’t trade off “half” off McDaniels, so to speak.

But for Indy, it wouldn’t put a Indy below the cos to trade Obi into space. It would open up another $13m of luxury tax space this year and next.

Wolves don’t control their picks in the future, no reason for a tank trade. McDaniels is worth more than a salary dump.

[Scoot McGroot]

If someone took Obie into cap space would that reduce payroll below the cap?

If Indy traded Obi/Nesmith for McDaniels it’s at least cap neutral, and maybe adding salary depending on how Indy treats that opened 15th spot. Obi/Nesmith this year is $24m, then $25m, and then $26m. McDaniels is $23m, $25m, and then $26.7m. Fill that opened spot with a standard vet minimum, and it’s equal salary to adding salary every year. And it makes it so Indy couldn’t just keep Nesmith and trade Obi into space to save cash, if need be. Can’t trade off “half” off McDaniels, so to speak.

But for Indy, it wouldn’t put a Indy below the cos to trade Obi into space. It would open up another $13m of luxury tax space this year and next.

Wolves don’t control their picks in the future, no reason for a tank trade. McDaniels is worth more than a salary dump.

It’s a cost saving trade. Not a tank trade. He’s not getting salary dumped in this concept. He’s returning a really good defensive wing AND a really great 6th man type forward. If you don’t want that, send Obi to another team for expiring/2nds and take the cash/tax savings without hurting the defense too much.

[winforlose]

If Indy traded Obi/Nesmith for McDaniels it’s at least cap neutral, and maybe adding salary depending on how Indy treats that opened 15th spot. Obi/Nesmith this year is $24m, then $25m, and then $26m. McDaniels is $23m, $25m, and then $26.7m. Fill that opened spot with a standard vet minimum, and it’s equal salary to adding salary every year. And it makes it so Indy couldn’t just keep Nesmith and trade Obi into space to save cash, if need be. Can’t trade off “half” off McDaniels, so to speak.

But for Indy, it wouldn’t put a Indy below the cos to trade Obi into space. It would open up another $13m of luxury tax space this year and next.

Wolves don’t control their picks in the future, no reason for a tank trade. McDaniels is worth more than a salary dump.

It’s a cost saving trade. Not a tank trade. He’s not getting salary dumped in this concept. He’s returning a really good defensive wing AND a really great 6th man type forward. If you don’t want that, send Obi to another team for expiring/2nds and take the cash/tax savings without hurting the defense too much.

Nesmith is not as good as MCD in any aspect of the game. Downgrading isn’t what the Wolves need when they don’t control their picks. What they need is to balance their roster.

[shrink]

TWolves
Out: McDaniels and Dillingham
In: Black and Neismith

Get a, shooting and spacing upgrade Neismith v McDaniels. I value McDaniels elite defense over Neismith 3 and D and account for that with an upgrade prospect Black over Dillingham

I am not sure Tim Connelly sees Black as an upgrade over Dillingham, since he gave up an unprotected 1st and an unprotected pick swap to get Dilly.

Also, MIN already has too many good SG’s for the minutes available (Ant, NAW, DDV), so would likely value a supposed 6-11 McDaniels over a 6-5 Neismith.

But who knows? Black is a more experienced PG right now than Dilly, and McDaniels poor shooting has been an issue for the team too. I also give you credit for a different type of deal, rather than another Randall trade.

I think the front office sees the young core going forward to be the amigos Ant, Jaden and Naz Reid. However, when you cast the cold light of the RealGM Trade Board on MIN, for a team with first and second apron restrictions that needs to move bigger salaries to make big changes, the #2 salary to move behind Randle is likely Jaden. Most of the other players can’t be traded legally, or don’t make enough to find a decent deal.

[8305]

This adds salary for Indy, though?

If someone took Obie into cap space would that reduce payroll below the cap?

If Indy traded Obi/Nesmith for McDaniels it’s at least cap neutral, and maybe adding salary depending on how Indy treats that opened 15th spot. Obi/Nesmith this year is $24m, then $25m, and then $26m. McDaniels is $23m, $25m, and then $26.7m. Fill that opened spot with a standard vet minimum, and it’s equal salary to adding salary every year. And it makes it so Indy couldn’t just keep Nesmith and trade Obi into space to save cash, if need be. Can’t trade off “half” off McDaniels, so to speak.

But for Indy, it wouldn’t put a Indy below the cos to trade Obi into space. It would open up another $13m of luxury tax space this year and next.

Ok, but I don’t see where you include the the subtraction of Mathurin’s deal in a scenario of the OP + a follow-up Toppin salary dump strategy?

[winforlose]

TWolves
Out: McDaniels and Dillingham
In: Black and Neismith

Get a, shooting and spacing upgrade Neismith v McDaniels. I value McDaniels elite defense over Neismith 3 and D and account for that with an upgrade prospect Black over Dillingham

I am not sure Tim Connelly sees Black as an upgrade over Dillingham, since he gave up an unprotected 1st and an unprotected pick swap to get Dilly.

Also, MIN already has too many good SG’s for the minutes available (Ant, NAW, DDV), so would likely value a supposed 6-11 McDaniels over a 6-5 Neismith.

But who knows? Black is a more experienced PG right now than Dilly, and McDaniels poor shooting has been an issue for the team too. I also give you credit for a different type of deal, rather than another Randall trade.

I think the front office sees the young core going forward to be the amigos Ant, Jaden and Naz Reid. However, when you cast the cold light of the RealGM Trade Board on MIN, for a team with first and second apron restrictions that needs to move bigger salaries to make big changes, the #2 salary to move behind Randle is likely Jaden. Most of the other players can’t be traded legally, or don’t make enough to find a decent deal.

You forget 2 key facts about the new CBA.

1. You don’t pay tax till the end of the year.

2. While 2nd apron teams cannot sign and trade for talent, they can sign, hold the player for as long as the restriction period requires, and then trade the player with the new deal and bird rights to a new team.

Wolves can and should sign both Naz and NAW to a market friendly deal. Then when the time comes if we need to trade them, some team will have need. Even if it is a salary dump kinda deal, you don’t lose them for nothing. Meanwhile you never know what happens. Maybe a star demands out and Randle’s expiring (assuming he opts in,) contract helps bridge the gap. Then you don’t NEED to move either. Also maybe someone from the young squad develops and gains value (Minott has looked great.) My point is that 2nd apron teams have more room to move than people think. They just haven’t had enough time to show off those moves and prove it.

[Scoot McGroot]

Wolves don’t control their picks in the future, no reason for a tank trade. McDaniels is worth more than a salary dump.

It’s a cost saving trade. Not a tank trade. He’s not getting salary dumped in this concept. He’s returning a really good defensive wing AND a really great 6th man type forward. If you don’t want that, send Obi to another team for expiring/2nds and take the cash/tax savings without hurting the defense too much.

Nesmith is not as good as MCD in any aspect of the game. Downgrading isn’t what the Wolves need when they don’t control their picks. What they need is to balance their roster.

Nesmith is a better shooter and more reliable offensive player, for sure, no? And he's a terrific defender, albeit not as good as McDaniels. That’s kind of the trade off. Minnesota getting a little worse defensively but getting an improvement offensively and salary cap wise?

[Scoot McGroot]

If someone took Obie into cap space would that reduce payroll below the cap?

If Indy traded Obi/Nesmith for McDaniels it’s at least cap neutral, and maybe adding salary depending on how Indy treats that opened 15th spot. Obi/Nesmith this year is $24m, then $25m, and then $26m. McDaniels is $23m, $25m, and then $26.7m. Fill that opened spot with a standard vet minimum, and it’s equal salary to adding salary every year. And it makes it so Indy couldn’t just keep Nesmith and trade Obi into space to save cash, if need be. Can’t trade off “half” off McDaniels, so to speak.

But for Indy, it wouldn’t put a Indy below the cos to trade Obi into space. It would open up another $13m of luxury tax space this year and next.

Ok, but I don’t see where you include the the subtraction of Mathurin’s deal in a scenario of the OP + a follow-up Toppin salary dump strategy?

I don’t know what you mean. If it’s Mathurin/Nesmith, Indy goes well into the tax immediately, about $5m? And then figure out a salary dump where Obi returns only around $6m or less to get under the tax?

[Scoot McGroot]

TWolves
Out: McDaniels and Dillingham
In: Black and Neismith

Get a, shooting and spacing upgrade Neismith v McDaniels. I value McDaniels elite defense over Neismith 3 and D and account for that with an upgrade prospect Black over Dillingham

I am not sure Tim Connelly sees Black as an upgrade over Dillingham, since he gave up an unprotected 1st and an unprotected pick swap to get Dilly.

Also, MIN already has too many good SG’s for the minutes available (Ant, NAW, DDV), so would likely value a supposed 6-11 McDaniels over a 6-5 Neismith.

But who knows? Black is a more experienced PG right now than Dilly, and McDaniels poor shooting has been an issue for the team too. I also give you credit for a different type of deal, rather than another Randall trade.

I think the front office sees the young core going forward to be the amigos Ant, Jaden and Naz Reid. However, when you cast the cold light of the RealGM Trade Board on MIN, for a team with first and second apron restrictions that needs to move bigger salaries to make big changes, the #2 salary to move behind Randle is likely Jaden. Most of the other players can’t be traded legally, or don’t make enough to find a decent deal.

You forget 2 key facts about the new CBA.

1. You don’t pay tax till the end of the year.

2. While 2nd apron teams cannot sign and trade for talent, they can sign, hold the player for as long as the restriction period requires, and then trade the player with the new deal and bird rights to a new team.

Wolves can and should sign both Naz and NAW to a market friendly deal. Then when the time comes if we need to trade them, some team will have need. Even if it is a salary dump kinda deal, you don’t lose them for nothing. Meanwhile you never know what happens. Maybe a star demands out and Randle’s expiring (assuming he opts in,) contract helps bridge the gap. Then you don’t NEED to move either. Also maybe someone from the young squad develops and gains value (Minott has looked great.) My point is that 2nd apron teams have more room to move than people think. They just haven’t had enough time to show off those moves and prove it.

If Minnesota is willing to go deep into repeater/2nd apron, then they can absolutely do that. I wouldnt necessarily plan on signing guys and then trading them into cap space/TPE’s midseason, though, under this new CBA. How many teams are willing and able to take back additional salary midseason in trade? Detroit is the only team with usable cap space. There’s a lot less TPE’s around with many teams not able to use pre existing TPE’s from apron restrictions, etc.

[winforlose]

I am not sure Tim Connelly sees Black as an upgrade over Dillingham, since he gave up an unprotected 1st and an unprotected pick swap to get Dilly.

Also, MIN already has too many good SG’s for the minutes available (Ant, NAW, DDV), so would likely value a supposed 6-11 McDaniels over a 6-5 Neismith.

But who knows? Black is a more experienced PG right now than Dilly, and McDaniels poor shooting has been an issue for the team too. I also give you credit for a different type of deal, rather than another Randall trade.

I think the front office sees the young core going forward to be the amigos Ant, Jaden and Naz Reid. However, when you cast the cold light of the RealGM Trade Board on MIN, for a team with first and second apron restrictions that needs to move bigger salaries to make big changes, the #2 salary to move behind Randle is likely Jaden. Most of the other players can’t be traded legally, or don’t make enough to find a decent deal.

You forget 2 key facts about the new CBA.

1. You don’t pay tax till the end of the year.

2. While 2nd apron teams cannot sign and trade for talent, they can sign, hold the player for as long as the restriction period requires, and then trade the player with the new deal and bird rights to a new team.

Wolves can and should sign both Naz and NAW to a market friendly deal. Then when the time comes if we need to trade them, some team will have need. Even if it is a salary dump kinda deal, you don’t lose them for nothing. Meanwhile you never know what happens. Maybe a star demands out and Randle’s expiring (assuming he opts in,) contract helps bridge the gap. Then you don’t NEED to move either. Also maybe someone from the young squad develops and gains value (Minott has looked great.) My point is that 2nd apron teams have more room to move than people think. They just haven’t had enough time to show off those moves and prove it.

If Minnesota is willing to go deep into repeater/2nd apron, then they can absolutely do that. I wouldnt necessarily plan on signing guys and then trading them into cap space/TPE’s midseason, though, under this new CBA. How many teams are willing and able to take back additional salary midseason in trade? Detroit is the only team with usable cap space. There’s a lot less TPE’s around with many teams not able to use pre existing TPE’s from apron restrictions, etc.

Doesn’t need to be into space. It can be partially in space or with a 3rd team and return less salary than what is sent out. Plus repeater doesn’t happen in year 2, it happens in year 3. By then Randle comes off. This is our first year in the tax, next year is 2nd.

[Scoot McGroot]

You forget 2 key facts about the new CBA.

1. You don’t pay tax till the end of the year.

2. While 2nd apron teams cannot sign and trade for talent, they can sign, hold the player for as long as the restriction period requires, and then trade the player with the new deal and bird rights to a new team.

Wolves can and should sign both Naz and NAW to a market friendly deal. Then when the time comes if we need to trade them, some team will have need. Even if it is a salary dump kinda deal, you don’t lose them for nothing. Meanwhile you never know what happens. Maybe a star demands out and Randle’s expiring (assuming he opts in,) contract helps bridge the gap. Then you don’t NEED to move either. Also maybe someone from the young squad develops and gains value (Minott has looked great.) My point is that 2nd apron teams have more room to move than people think. They just haven’t had enough time to show off those moves and prove it.

If Minnesota is willing to go deep into repeater/2nd apron, then they can absolutely do that. I wouldnt necessarily plan on signing guys and then trading them into cap space/TPE’s midseason, though, under this new CBA. How many teams are willing and able to take back additional salary midseason in trade? Detroit is the only team with usable cap space. There’s a lot less TPE’s around with many teams not able to use pre existing TPE’s from apron restrictions, etc.

Doesn’t need to be into space. It can be partially in space or with a 3rd team and return less salary than what is sent out. Plus repeater doesn’t happen in year 2, it happens in year 3. By then Randle comes off. This is our first year in the tax, next year is 2nd.

I guess I should’ve been clearer of “if Minnesota wants to head down the road to the repeater tax, and also dive deep into the 2nd apron” instead of fluid with my language. Apologies.


But yes, Minnesota can just salary match and get a little bit of space here and there, if teams are willing to hard cap themselves at the first apron by taking back additional salary in trades. However, that brings them down “slower” and likely keeps them well into the tax?

And yes, if Minnesota is willing to let talent walk out the door for little or no returning salary, then that will help down the line, too.

[winforlose]

If Minnesota is willing to go deep into repeater/2nd apron, then they can absolutely do that. I wouldnt necessarily plan on signing guys and then trading them into cap space/TPE’s midseason, though, under this new CBA. How many teams are willing and able to take back additional salary midseason in trade? Detroit is the only team with usable cap space. There’s a lot less TPE’s around with many teams not able to use pre existing TPE’s from apron restrictions, etc.

Doesn’t need to be into space. It can be partially in space or with a 3rd team and return less salary than what is sent out. Plus repeater doesn’t happen in year 2, it happens in year 3. By then Randle comes off. This is our first year in the tax, next year is 2nd.

I guess I should’ve been clearer of “if Minnesota wants to head down the road to the repeater tax, and also dive deep into the 2nd apron” instead of fluid with my language. Apologies.


But yes, Minnesota can just salary match and get a little bit of space here and there, if teams are willing to hard cap themselves at the first apron by taking back additional salary in trades. However, that brings them down “slower” and likely keeps them well into the tax?

And yes, if Minnesota is willing to let talent walk out the door for little or no returning salary, then that will help down the line, too.

1. You make it sound like teams with space never make deals with teams without space. If we trade NAW at 15 for someone making 10, then we still cut 5 and get value for NAW. When you sell your picks your goal is to win, and we are all in.

2. The cap is going up by 10% a year. Even if we end in the 2nd apron in year 2, that doesn’t mean we do so in year 3 when you get either penalty.

3. It’s not letting talent go for nothing. It’s letting talent go to retain other talent. If Randle opts out we save the money and probably get a back end reward by signing and trading his bird rights. If he opts in same deal one year later. Again we can probably move him as an expiring and take back less money. Either way we have time to make deals and figure it out.

[Scoot McGroot]

Doesn’t need to be into space. It can be partially in space or with a 3rd team and return less salary than what is sent out. Plus repeater doesn’t happen in year 2, it happens in year 3. By then Randle comes off. This is our first year in the tax, next year is 2nd.

I guess I should’ve been clearer of “if Minnesota wants to head down the road to the repeater tax, and also dive deep into the 2nd apron” instead of fluid with my language. Apologies.


But yes, Minnesota can just salary match and get a little bit of space here and there, if teams are willing to hard cap themselves at the first apron by taking back additional salary in trades. However, that brings them down “slower” and likely keeps them well into the tax?

And yes, if Minnesota is willing to let talent walk out the door for little or no returning salary, then that will help down the line, too.

1. You make it sound like teams with space never make deals with teams without space. If we trade NAW at 15 for someone making 10, then we still cut 5 and get value for NAW. When you sell your picks your goal is to win, and we are all in.

They do, but there's a whole lot less flexibility in terms of deals that "cut salary". Gone are the days where 3-4 teams entered the season well under the cap, or had the ability to use up a $20+m TPE. So you're more likely doing a lot of "my $15m guy for $12m, and we pay to move the other $4-5m filler onto a 3rd team, thus losing some of the return we otherwise might've gotten" kind of moves?

But now, if you trade NAW at 15 for someone making 10, then you have added 10 to the salary cap, and maybe get some value for NAW? But, generally, guys signed are signed at their full market value, and traded later, so there's not a ton of value there unless they make another big step (which then you won't trade them)?

2. The cap is going up by 10% a year. Even if we end in the 2nd apron in year 2, that doesn’t mean we do so in year 3 when you get either penalty.

Sure. But is Minnesota, and their likely new owners, going to be willing to even pay the tax? Weren't reports out that the new owners had plans to cut the salary back under the tax soon?

3. It’s not letting talent go for nothing. It’s letting talent go to retain other talent. If Randle opts out we save the money and probably get a back end reward by signing and trading his bird rights. If he opts in same deal one year later. Again we can probably move him as an expiring and take back less money. Either way we have time to make deals and figure it out.

I mean, you said Randle expires, and that provides your tax relief, so I assume you'd let him go. Because if he expires, and then you re-sign him, that doesn't provide the cap relief, as they're now still on the books? But if you meant something else, that works.


Yes. You have time. I was just responding with ideas that make sense with what's been reported of the likely new ownership. And we've already seen Minnesota take a step back to save some long-term salary by trading KAT for Randle, so it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility?

[winforlose]

I guess I should’ve been clearer of “if Minnesota wants to head down the road to the repeater tax, and also dive deep into the 2nd apron” instead of fluid with my language. Apologies.


But yes, Minnesota can just salary match and get a little bit of space here and there, if teams are willing to hard cap themselves at the first apron by taking back additional salary in trades. However, that brings them down “slower” and likely keeps them well into the tax?

And yes, if Minnesota is willing to let talent walk out the door for little or no returning salary, then that will help down the line, too.

1. You make it sound like teams with space never make deals with teams without space. If we trade NAW at 15 for someone making 10, then we still cut 5 and get value for NAW. When you sell your picks your goal is to win, and we are all in.

They do, but there's a whole lot less flexibility in terms of deals that "cut salary". Gone are the days where 3-4 teams entered the season well under the cap, or had the ability to use up a $20+m TPE. So you're more likely doing a lot of "my $15m guy for $12m, and we pay to move the other $4-5m filler onto a 3rd team, thus losing some of the return we otherwise might've gotten" kind of moves?

But now, if you trade NAW at 15 for someone making 10, then you have added 10 to the salary cap, and maybe get some value for NAW? But, generally, guys signed are signed at their full market value, and traded later, so there's not a ton of value there unless they make another big step (which then you won't trade them)?

2. The cap is going up by 10% a year. Even if we end in the 2nd apron in year 2, that doesn’t mean we do so in year 3 when you get either penalty.

Sure. But is Minnesota, and their likely new owners, going to be willing to even pay the tax? Weren't reports out that the new owners had plans to cut the salary back under the tax soon?

3. It’s not letting talent go for nothing. It’s letting talent go to retain other talent. If Randle opts out we save the money and probably get a back end reward by signing and trading his bird rights. If he opts in same deal one year later. Again we can probably move him as an expiring and take back less money. Either way we have time to make deals and figure it out.

I mean, you said Randle expires, and that provides your tax relief, so I assume you'd let him go. Because if he expires, and then you re-sign him, that doesn't provide the cap relief, as they're now still on the books? But if you meant something else, that works.


Yes. You have time. I was just responding with ideas that make sense with what's been reported of the likely new ownership. And we've already seen Minnesota take a step back to save some long-term salary by trading KAT for Randle, so it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility?

I think the rumor you are referring to is part of the ownership battle. I think the reason for the KAT trade is Tim Connelly badly wanted DDV. He figured KAT would keep getting hurt and lower his value year over year. TC bet on KAT missing the playoffs for NYK and DDV being healthy for us. I also think he plans to move Randle before the deadline or during the offseason if he opts in and we don’t get a good offer.

To your above points, Jaden has a higher ceiling, is much taller/longer, and is best friends with Ant. Plus Nesmith is fewer years of control. I wouldn’t sell low on Jaden just to save money. We have other levers to pull to do that.

[Scoot McGroot]

I think the rumor you are referring to is part of the ownership battle.

The new owners had a plan to cut salary below the tax as part of their purchase, yes.

I think the reason for the KAT trade is Tim Connelly badly wanted DDV. He figured KAT would keep getting hurt and lower his value year over year. TC bet on KAT missing the playoffs for NYK and DDV being healthy for us. I also think he plans to move Randle before the deadline or during the offseason if he opts in and we don’t get a good offer.

These could both be true. But are you assuming that he'd deal Randle into cap space, or for relatively matching salary, because that would keep them at about the same salary amount.

To your above points, Jaden has a higher ceiling, is much taller/longer, and is best friends with Ant. Plus Nesmith is fewer years of control. I wouldn’t sell low on Jaden just to save money. We have other levers to pull to do that.

He is much taller/longer, and best friends with Ant. Totally agreed. I think Nesmith is already the better offensive player, and the clearer path to continuing to getting better there?

As for other levers, sure. You do. Naz could walk and it wouldn't matter. Conley could retire. You could dump DDV. It's just that those would generally require losing another good player, and this concept saves y'all money, while returning a guy signed for this and 2 more years at $11m per year, flat. This would just be one option. Not the only option. But it has it's benefits that could make a ton of sense for Minnesota, too.

[winforlose]

I think the rumor you are referring to is part of the ownership battle.

The new owners had a plan to cut salary below the tax as part of their purchase, yes.

I think the reason for the KAT trade is Tim Connelly badly wanted DDV. He figured KAT would keep getting hurt and lower his value year over year. TC bet on KAT missing the playoffs for NYK and DDV being healthy for us. I also think he plans to move Randle before the deadline or during the offseason if he opts in and we don’t get a good offer.

These could both be true. But are you assuming that he'd deal Randle into cap space, or for relatively matching salary, because that would keep them at about the same salary amount.

To your above points, Jaden has a higher ceiling, is much taller/longer, and is best friends with Ant. Plus Nesmith is fewer years of control. I wouldn’t sell low on Jaden just to save money. We have other levers to pull to do that.

He is much taller/longer, and best friends with Ant. Totally agreed. I think Nesmith is already the better offensive player, and the clearer path to continuing to getting better there?

As for other levers, sure. You do. Naz could walk and it wouldn't matter. Conley could retire. You could dump DDV. It's just that those would generally require losing another good player, and this concept saves y'all money, while returning a guy signed for this and 2 more years at $11m per year, flat. This would just be one option. Not the only option. But it has it's benefits that could make a ton of sense for Minnesota, too.

I could see us moving Rudy next year, and Mike will be minimum going forward beyond 25/26. I can also see us moving Randle this year for 20+ million in salary obligations, and a better fitting player/players. It allows Naz to be promoted to starter and that fixes some of our problems. Jaden is being harmed by the HC but Finch is likely fired for a more offensive minded coach, and that is why you don’t sell low on Jaden. The Wolves cap situation is not dire yet, I don’t see us making downgrades (Nesmith is,) until it becomes dire.

[Scoot McGroot]

I think the rumor you are referring to is part of the ownership battle.

The new owners had a plan to cut salary below the tax as part of their purchase, yes.

I think the reason for the KAT trade is Tim Connelly badly wanted DDV. He figured KAT would keep getting hurt and lower his value year over year. TC bet on KAT missing the playoffs for NYK and DDV being healthy for us. I also think he plans to move Randle before the deadline or during the offseason if he opts in and we don’t get a good offer.

These could both be true. But are you assuming that he'd deal Randle into cap space, or for relatively matching salary, because that would keep them at about the same salary amount.

To your above points, Jaden has a higher ceiling, is much taller/longer, and is best friends with Ant. Plus Nesmith is fewer years of control. I wouldn’t sell low on Jaden just to save money. We have other levers to pull to do that.

He is much taller/longer, and best friends with Ant. Totally agreed. I think Nesmith is already the better offensive player, and the clearer path to continuing to getting better there?

As for other levers, sure. You do. Naz could walk and it wouldn't matter. Conley could retire. You could dump DDV. It's just that those would generally require losing another good player, and this concept saves y'all money, while returning a guy signed for this and 2 more years at $11m per year, flat. This would just be one option. Not the only option. But it has it's benefits that could make a ton of sense for Minnesota, too.

I could see us moving Rudy next year, and Mike will be minimum going forward beyond 25/26. I can also see us moving Randle this year for 20+ million in salary obligations, and a better fitting player/players. It allows Naz to be promoted to starter and that fixes some of our problems. Jaden is being harmed by the HC but Finch is likely fired for a more offensive minded coach, and that is why you don’t sell low on Jaden. The Wolves cap situation is not dire yet, I don’t see us making downgrades (Nesmith is,) until it becomes dire.

Like I said, there are options. I don't see Rudy being moved as the answer, though, as that creates an even more massive "philosophy" to be dealt with overall?

As for the cap situation, it's a $90+m luxury tax bill right now. They're also already over the tax right now for next year. I'd be so relieved to be a fan of a team that doesn't consider that dire.

As for Nesmith being a dowgrade, I think he is. I don't think it's huge, though. And it's mostly based on position/size than anything else? He's a tremendous defender himself, and he's an upgrade offensively from McDaniels, for sure. It's all about what a team might be willing to sacrifice IF they have a desire to save some money.

[winforlose]

The new owners had a plan to cut salary below the tax as part of their purchase, yes.

These could both be true. But are you assuming that he'd deal Randle into cap space, or for relatively matching salary, because that would keep them at about the same salary amount.


He is much taller/longer, and best friends with Ant. Totally agreed. I think Nesmith is already the better offensive player, and the clearer path to continuing to getting better there?

As for other levers, sure. You do. Naz could walk and it wouldn't matter. Conley could retire. You could dump DDV. It's just that those would generally require losing another good player, and this concept saves y'all money, while returning a guy signed for this and 2 more years at $11m per year, flat. This would just be one option. Not the only option. But it has it's benefits that could make a ton of sense for Minnesota, too.

I could see us moving Rudy next year, and Mike will be minimum going forward beyond 25/26. I can also see us moving Randle this year for 20+ million in salary obligations, and a better fitting player/players. It allows Naz to be promoted to starter and that fixes some of our problems. Jaden is being harmed by the HC but Finch is likely fired for a more offensive minded coach, and that is why you don’t sell low on Jaden. The Wolves cap situation is not dire yet, I don’t see us making downgrades (Nesmith is,) until it becomes dire.

Like I said, there are options. I don't see Rudy being moved as the answer, though, as that creates an even more massive "philosophy" to be dealt with overall?

As for the cap situation, it's a $90+m luxury tax bill right now. They're also already over the tax right now for next year. I'd be so relieved to be a fan of a team that doesn't consider that dire.

As for Nesmith being a dowgrade, I think he is. I don't think it's huge, though. And it's mostly based on position/size than anything else? He's a tremendous defender himself, and he's an upgrade offensively from McDaniels, for sure. It's all about what a team might be willing to sacrifice IF they have a desire to save some money.

Again it really isn’t dire. The Wolves are experiencing huge growth in merch sales, nationally broadcast games, and there is an expansion fee coming ownerships way. One year of operating at a loss is to be expected to contend. Our problem is that the roster isn’t balanced and that is causing problems on the floor (Rudy is the only true C on the team.) Rudy’s new deal is much more manageable and moveable. If Ant is unhappy and wants to switch to a 5 out offense with max space in the paint, then I could see Rudy in the move next year. I even predicted it in the wake of the KAT trade. But what you are forgetting is that even though the Wolves have a high payroll, they have valuable deals. DDV is a value contract, Randle expiring at 33 is a value contract, NAW will probably stay at 16-18 and be a value contract. Naz is having a down year and likely stays on a team friendly deal or opts in to let the cap get bigger and to further raise his value. Jaden having another good playoffs will massively improve his value. You also radically oversell Nesmith who isn’t better offensively than MCD, he is just put in a better position than MCD by his coach.