Pistons/Pelicans Spring Rental

[bkohler]

I like it, but that just makes me wonder who is available that is worth a 1st?

Very few, but also definitely not very expensive 4 month rentals. Ingram’s told certain teams he’s not going to sign with them which really kills his trade value.

[louc1970]

Yea this is as good a deal as Pels fans can realistically expect now. My question is this, though:

Rich Paul is Ingram's new agent and also Dejounte Murray's, who they just invested in and is now their culture leader. Will the agent accept for a team to take him on as just a rental? Or will they secure an unofficially official commitment on the new contract before the deadline trade.

I guess in this situation BI would be heavily featured as a 1B option on a playoff bound team. So that could be a good opportunity to showcase for his offseason contract negotiations, rather than be a 3rd or 4th option on a stacked team like the Cavs.

I don't see Rich Paul having any influence over whether this particular trade takes place. Detroit can try out Ingram for half a season and make a decision about whether to offer him a new contract in the summer. Ingram can negotiate with any team.

But how many teams are going to have the space Ingram is looking for? And of those, how many are going to be willing to pay it?

[oldncreaky]

I don’t know how to feel about committing to him even after getting him at this price

Yeah the whole point is they don't commit now. They just bring him in to replace the offense lost with Ivey. If the fit is good, you talk new contract. If the fit is bad or his demands are too high you haven't given up any assets you really regret. And if it helps ensure Cade and other young core guys get a taste of the playoffs I think the 2nds are worth it.

No commitment required beyond this year.

But that’s the problem, Chuck. We aren’t replacing the offense lost with Ivey, because Tek and Timmy play 46 minutes and average
Over 17 points themselves. We’re just creating different holes here.

I'm on the fence on this one. Our depth is shaky, and with Ivey out it, we have 8, maybe 9 playable guys -- meaning basically zero margin for injuries after a 2-for-1

It could be made better if we use some of our cap space to get a couple of decent backups, particularly at PG, before this trade is made

[Godaddycurse]

It could be made better if we use some of our cap space to get a couple of decent backups, particularly at PG, before this trade is made

then OP wouldn't be legal

[NYG]

I like it, but that just makes me wonder who is available that is worth a 1st?

Very few, but also definitely not very expensive 4 month rentals. Ingram’s told certain teams he’s not going to sign with them which really kills his trade value.

Just Butler and Cam of the rumored names, right?

[Texas Chuck]

I didn't have THJ and Fontecchio more helpful offensively than Ingram and definitely don't think adding up PPG is really all that meaningful. But sounds like this is a bust from the Detroit end. On to the next idea. Appreciate all the feedback as always.

[oldncreaky]

I didn't have THJ and Fontecchio more helpful offensively than Ingram and definitely don't think adding up PPG is really all that meaningful. But sounds like this is a bust from the Detroit end. On to the next idea. Appreciate all the feedback as always.

I don't think it's anywhere near a bust, just that DET fans are leery of messing with the team given that we are over .500 for the first time in what seems like forever. As I said, I'm on the fence.

Pros:
- significant talent upgrade
- bird rights of value even if we don't retain Ingram

Cons:
- fit: what is working in DET is a heliocentric system around Cade, and I have no idea how Ingram would fit into that when he is gunning for a contract, while THJ and Tec fit well
- depth
- chemistry

I'd feel a lot better if
1) we obtained a backup PG somehow (before or as part of this trade) using cap space or room exception
and
2) it was Harris as part of the outgoing to get to Ingram's salary number (but then Harris is less desirable, and the valuation is probably off)

[Texas Chuck]

just that DET fans are leery of messing with the team given that we are over .500 for the first time in what seems like forever.

Oh no question. I don't disagree with that concern.

The only thing that surprises me and I disagree with is that he's not an offensive upgrade over the guys going out. I think he absolutely is.

[BlazersBroncos]

As a DET fan said they may have interest in Simons - would this work?

Simons for THJ + TOR 25 SRP + DET 27 SRP + MIL 29 SRP?

[Billl]

just that DET fans are leery of messing with the team given that we are over .500 for the first time in what seems like forever.

Oh no question. I don't disagree with that concern.

The only thing that surprises me and I disagree with is that he's not an offensive upgrade over the guys going out. I think he absolutely is.

I mean, if he buys in and is willing to be floor spacer and secondary handler , sure. That's kinda been the knock on pairing him with Zion though. He wants a lot of midrange touches and doesn't appear to be super happy playing off the ball and having most of his action be open jumpers or attacking closeouts. Ingram's 3 attempts are up this year, but the last couple he's been down near that 3 attempt per game mark. THJ and Simone are taking 10 3's a game for us. Even if BI is a better offensive player in a vacuum, that doesn't mean the pistons offense is going to run better overall.

[Euphonetiks]

just that DET fans are leery of messing with the team given that we are over .500 for the first time in what seems like forever.

Oh no question. I don't disagree with that concern.

The only thing that surprises me and I disagree with is that he's not an offensive upgrade over the guys going out. I think he absolutely is.

I mean, if he buys in and is willing to be floor spacer and secondary handler , sure. That's kinda been the knock on pairing him with Zion though. He wants a lot of midrange touches and doesn't appear to be super happy playing off the ball and having most of his action be open jumpers or attacking closeouts. Ingram's 3 attempts are up this year, but the last couple he's been down near that 3 attempt per game mark. THJ and Simone are taking 10 3's a game for us. Even if BI is a better offensive player in a vacuum, that doesn't mean the pistons offense is going to run better overall.

BI and Zion have not meshed because Zion cannot shoot and is not a real PG, while Ingram prefers to play slower and does not have a quick first step. Neither are great defenders, but they can be neutral when not having to carry an entire offensive load. Also Willie Green is not the right coach for them.

The Zion/Ingram pairing coached by Willie Green results in a lot of taking turns: "you get yours and then I will get mine". It is not cohesive. When Zion initiates, BI is usually positioned on the left wing spotting up, but when Zion drives he kicks to the right wing (CJ/Trey) or the corners (Jose/Herb/JRE). Usually the only time he passes back behind himself to Ingram is when he gets walled off and the clock is running down. When Ingram initiates Zion is on the wing and his defender is clogging the lane.

Ingram has hinted multiple times that he thinks he plays better with a point guard. Ingram attempted 6.2 (39%) and 6.1 (38%) 3PA per game playing with Lonzo and was up to 6.4 (37.5%) this season. He also had his best efficiency those two years. I don't think Ingram would have a problem playing off Cade.

[bkohler]

I like it, but that just makes me wonder who is available that is worth a 1st?

Very few, but also definitely not very expensive 4 month rentals. Ingram’s told certain teams he’s not going to sign with them which really kills his trade value.

Just Butler and Cam of the rumored names, right?

I'm not sure about Butler, honestly. His contract desires, current contract, age and history of pushing his way out of environments deflates his value to me.

[NYG]

I wonder if Memphis would pay a price like this and just risk Ingram bolting via free agency

[jayjaysee]

I would wonder about a Jose for Sasser swap added here for the backup PG needs

[Kalamazoo317]

As a DET fan said they may have interest in Simons - would this work?

Simons for THJ + TOR 25 SRP + DET 27 SRP + MIL 29 SRP?

If you swapped out THJ for Fontecchio, I'd do it

[Snakebites]

I feel extremely iffy about it.

Which probably means it’s a fair deal.

[BlazersBroncos]

As a DET fan said they may have interest in Simons - would this work?

Simons for THJ + TOR 25 SRP + DET 27 SRP + MIL 29 SRP?

If you swapped out THJ for Fontecchio, I'd do it

I guess that does work w/ the DET cap space. I would 10000% do that.

[Euphonetiks]

I think this trade makes sense if no team makes a desperate offer for an Ingram rental. However, I think adding a 3rd team allowing the Pelicans to sell the extra cap space makes the trade work.

Without Ingram, the Pelicans are ~$30M below the tax next season with 10 players under contract and no big extensions on the horizon. They can afford to take back salary from a 2nd apron or repeater team even if it means taking back money on the books next year.

Jose is a fan favorite and loved by the organizaation for his energy and locker room presence, but he is also very close with Ingram and only under contract for one more season ($4.5M). I think the Pels should be open to a swap for Sasser as someone else suggested to maximize the amount of space they can sell. The bones of the trade before adding the 3rd team would be:

Pels In: Sasser, Fontecchio, THJ
Pels Out: Jose, Ingram, Green

Pistons In: Ingram, Jose, Green
Pistons Out: Sasser, Fontecchio, THJ

After the Pels duck the tax ($850k over) with this trade, they are left with ~$12.5M in tax space to sell. They could use that to simply take on bad salary and acquire assets or to open up a lot more opportunities for extracting value from a CJ trade. If the Pistsons wanted CJ instead, the same trade could be made, but the Pels would end up with ~$9.7M in space to sell instead.

What would GSW, LAC, or DAL give up to duck the tax and add Fontecchio or THJ or Jordan Hawkins? What would LAL, DEN, MIN, PHX, BOS, MIL, NYK, MIA or PHI offer to cut their tax burden and make a slight role player upgrade?

[A_dub06]

I’m in the camp of not wanting anything to do with BI. I don’t see the point in signing him this year, giving up the little amount of assets we have simply to make a push. I do think this is much closer to what he would get traded for, I just don’t see the point in making this trade as I don’t think a trial period is necessary.

[They_Them_Hatin]

I would decline if I were the Pistons. Cheap isn’t always right. Just ask the Suns. Ingram is the most overrated player in the league to me (next to Beal) and won’t fit right with Cade and mess up what they have going.