Five Team Steam: MIN/PHX/CHI/MIL/DET

[TheZachAttack]

Because I don't see Vucevic and Rudy being able to play together at all, while Randle can play with Rudy. Vucevic just wouldn't get enough minutes to be all that valuable.

I see. The way that I look at it is that Naz plays better with Rudy than Randle. I also think that Rudy should play closer to 25-28mpg and if you brought Vuc in potentially even less than that. Vuc would really help the Wolves break the coverages Ant is seeing and he can space the floor above the break.

I doubt that they can play together but I'd be interested in seeing what it looked like with the rebounding between the both of them. I think the Wolves know how to do it because they did it with Towns.

Vuc is paid 20m per year, so for me this is really about elevating Naz and then creating a solution for the biggest challenge that the Wolves have and helping address the way teams make it hard for our best player to play his best.

Vucevic and Towns are completely different players on the defensive end. Towns was mobile enough to legitimately guard PFs on the perimeter, while Vucevic has no chance in those matchups. I just don't think that Vucevic/Gobert has any possibility of working in a similar fashion as Towns/Gobert.

Sure if it's your main lineup like Towns and Gobert was. The Bulls beat the Wolves last year playing Vuc/Drummond against Towns/Gobert. You might give up some more open perimeter shots, but I think you'd give up less second chance points. There are certain matchups where you probably wouldn't play them together. The biggest challenge the Wolves offense has is that we do not have a big that can make teams pay in the short roll.

[wolves_89]

I see. The way that I look at it is that Naz plays better with Rudy than Randle. I also think that Rudy should play closer to 25-28mpg and if you brought Vuc in potentially even less than that. Vuc would really help the Wolves break the coverages Ant is seeing and he can space the floor above the break.

I doubt that they can play together but I'd be interested in seeing what it looked like with the rebounding between the both of them. I think the Wolves know how to do it because they did it with Towns.

Vuc is paid 20m per year, so for me this is really about elevating Naz and then creating a solution for the biggest challenge that the Wolves have and helping address the way teams make it hard for our best player to play his best.

Vucevic and Towns are completely different players on the defensive end. Towns was mobile enough to legitimately guard PFs on the perimeter, while Vucevic has no chance in those matchups. I just don't think that Vucevic/Gobert has any possibility of working in a similar fashion as Towns/Gobert.

Sure if it's your main lineup like Towns and Gobert was. The Bulls beat the Wolves last year playing Vuc/Drummond against Towns/Gobert. You might give up some more open perimeter shots, but I think you'd give up less second chance points. There are certain matchups where you probably wouldn't play them together. The biggest challenge the Wolves offense has is that we do not have a big that can make teams pay in the short roll.

Vucevic and Drummond only played together 204 minutes last season with a defensive rating of 120.8. That's not a example that sells the idea that Vucevic could play with Rudy.

[winforlose]

I see. The way that I look at it is that Naz plays better with Rudy than Randle. I also think that Rudy should play closer to 25-28mpg and if you brought Vuc in potentially even less than that. Vuc would really help the Wolves break the coverages Ant is seeing and he can space the floor above the break.

I doubt that they can play together but I'd be interested in seeing what it looked like with the rebounding between the both of them. I think the Wolves know how to do it because they did it with Towns.

Vuc is paid 20m per year, so for me this is really about elevating Naz and then creating a solution for the biggest challenge that the Wolves have and helping address the way teams make it hard for our best player to play his best.

Aside from how much we pay Rudy, slashing his minutes sends him a message that we don’t have faith in him. Putting aside the lack of rim protection with Vuc and Naz, you lose the Rudy screen assists and you lose the lob threat which you just saw dominate against the Nuggets. Rudy could definitely use 5 games off to rest, but cutting him to 25 minutes would just undermine his confidence and make his troubles worse.

Vuc is someone used to playing 30+ minutes since going to the Bulls. If Rudy plays 25 that means Vuc plays 23. Playing Vuc and Rudy together is a bad mix. I don’t know how changing Vuc’s minutes and role affects him, but I have to believe it will.

Rudy doesn't need to play >30 minutes per game in the regular season at his age. This is about winning and about the postseason and about making the team the best version of itself. Playing in a major role on a team trying to win a championship should be enough. You don't know how Vucevic and Gobert would play together. The Bulls beat the Wolves last year playing Drummond and Vucevic together. Vucevic is a 40% above the break 3 point shooter. The rebounding advantages on both ends could work.

And what makes Ant the best player is what's important, not Rudy's ego. And if Rudy isn't willing to sacrifice for the team, then he isn't a winning player and doesn't care about winning.

1. Regular season games against teams not likely to make the playoffs are not usually games Ant goes all out in. To use those games as examples of what works or doesn’t is not a great example. Vuc is 34 and not that laterally quick. I have my doubts he could defend the 4 against a KD or Aaron Gordon, much less an AD or Chet.

2. Rudy is a human being. He took a tremendous hit to his ego in the Olympics when he was all but benched for most of the final rounds, and then got **** on by the talking heads as mister overrated, ect… I get that you think guys should not be effected by things, but the truth is, they are. If Rudy is negatively impacted by having his minutes slashed, and Vuc is negatively impacted by having his minutes slashed, then we are in the worst of both worlds.

3. I agree playing 5 out is important. But I have concerns about Naz and Vuc defensive duo. I fear that they will hemorrhage paint points and boards. I could see them giving back everything they gain on the offensive end and then some.

I see the potential but I also have concerns.

[TheZachAttack]

Aside from how much we pay Rudy, slashing his minutes sends him a message that we don’t have faith in him. Putting aside the lack of rim protection with Vuc and Naz, you lose the Rudy screen assists and you lose the lob threat which you just saw dominate against the Nuggets. Rudy could definitely use 5 games off to rest, but cutting him to 25 minutes would just undermine his confidence and make his troubles worse.

Vuc is someone used to playing 30+ minutes since going to the Bulls. If Rudy plays 25 that means Vuc plays 23. Playing Vuc and Rudy together is a bad mix. I don’t know how changing Vuc’s minutes and role affects him, but I have to believe it will.

Rudy doesn't need to play >30 minutes per game in the regular season at his age. This is about winning and about the postseason and about making the team the best version of itself. Playing in a major role on a team trying to win a championship should be enough. You don't know how Vucevic and Gobert would play together. The Bulls beat the Wolves last year playing Drummond and Vucevic together. Vucevic is a 40% above the break 3 point shooter. The rebounding advantages on both ends could work.

And what makes Ant the best player is what's important, not Rudy's ego. And if Rudy isn't willing to sacrifice for the team, then he isn't a winning player and doesn't care about winning.

1. Regular season games against teams not likely to make the playoffs are not usually games Ant goes all out in. To use those games as examples of what works or doesn’t is not a great example. Vuc is 34 and not that laterally quick. I have my doubts he could defend the 4 against a KD or Aaron Gordon, much less an AD or Chet.

2. Rudy is a human being. He took a tremendous hit to his ego in the Olympics when he was all but benched for most of the final rounds, and then got **** on by the talking heads as mister overrated, ect… I get that you think guys should not be effected by things, but the truth is, they are. If Rudy is negatively impacted by having his minutes slashed, and Vuc is negatively impacted by having his minutes slashed, then we are in the worst of both worlds.

3. I agree playing 5 out is important. But I have concerns about Naz and Vuc defensive duo. I fear that they will hemorrhage paint points and boards. I could see them giving back everything they gain on the offensive end and then some.

I see the potential but I also have concerns.

Fair enough. I don't think you make this move to try to play them together. My main take is I think adding center depth behind Rudy is important and adding a big who allows the Wolves to be able to have a lineup that punishes teams if they guard that center like they do Rudy when they are trapping Ant is an important skillset to add to the roster. I also think that one of the things that is holding back the Wolves is player egos who get frustrated and their play dips if their minutes in certain games reflect what is the best lineup from an x's and o's perspective. I get that players are human, but I think that also hints at a culture gap from truly being a winning team. This means that to some players on the team, the amount of minutes they play matters more than winning despite them having the chance to have a significant role and still be crucial to the team.

[winforlose]

Rudy doesn't need to play >30 minutes per game in the regular season at his age. This is about winning and about the postseason and about making the team the best version of itself. Playing in a major role on a team trying to win a championship should be enough. You don't know how Vucevic and Gobert would play together. The Bulls beat the Wolves last year playing Drummond and Vucevic together. Vucevic is a 40% above the break 3 point shooter. The rebounding advantages on both ends could work.

And what makes Ant the best player is what's important, not Rudy's ego. And if Rudy isn't willing to sacrifice for the team, then he isn't a winning player and doesn't care about winning.

1. Regular season games against teams not likely to make the playoffs are not usually games Ant goes all out in. To use those games as examples of what works or doesn’t is not a great example. Vuc is 34 and not that laterally quick. I have my doubts he could defend the 4 against a KD or Aaron Gordon, much less an AD or Chet.

2. Rudy is a human being. He took a tremendous hit to his ego in the Olympics when he was all but benched for most of the final rounds, and then got **** on by the talking heads as mister overrated, ect… I get that you think guys should not be effected by things, but the truth is, they are. If Rudy is negatively impacted by having his minutes slashed, and Vuc is negatively impacted by having his minutes slashed, then we are in the worst of both worlds.

3. I agree playing 5 out is important. But I have concerns about Naz and Vuc defensive duo. I fear that they will hemorrhage paint points and boards. I could see them giving back everything they gain on the offensive end and then some.

I see the potential but I also have concerns.

Fair enough. I don't think you make this move to try to play them together. My main take is I think adding center depth behind Rudy is important and adding a big who allows the Wolves to be able to have a lineup that punishes teams if they guard that center like they do Rudy when they are trapping Ant is an important skillset to add to the roster. I also think that one of the things that is holding back the Wolves is player egos who get frustrated and their play dips if their minutes in certain games reflect what is the best lineup from an x's and o's perspective. I get that players are human, but I think that also hints at a culture gap from truly being a winning team. This means that to some players on the team, the amount of minutes they play matters more than winning despite them having the chance to have a significant role and still be crucial to the team.

Naz and NAW are in contract years. Vuc is getting older and his number of excellent seasons is diminishing, plus this year is likely gonna be the year he points to for his last pay day. Rudy has had a ton of **** talked about him in the last 12 months from a lot of sources. Basketball should be mechanical, but it is not. I like Vuc, but his money is an issue. With 40+ invested in Rudy this year and another 20+ in Vuc that is 60 million in just the C position. Meanwhile you have Mike as the only true PG at 37 years old and 10 million. I think the priority is a starting PG and then a backup C, not the other way around.

P.S I know it massively mess with this trade, but I think Portis to MN would be a great fit.

[shangrila]

I agree Randle might not opt out, but he might. He would be one of the top free agents on the market.

Another potential scenario, not to derail this thread too much, is that Randle opts out and extends for less money but more years. That would in theory cover enough money for Naz, although in that scenario NAW is gone. Which they might find acceptable if they have faith in TSJ and Dillingham to play consistent minutes next season.

[jscott]

wolves say no, too much salary on the books for next year. Why dont suns just keep vuc for themsevles?

Honestly, I saw Wolves fans wanted a center on the team trade deadline thread and just worked them into the legendary suns five team trade framework

That’s a fair point about the money but are the wolves just expecting Randle to decline his PO?

Don’t see why the Wolves would trade their starting PF to fill a hole at back up Center. Seems like we’d be going the wrong direction on that one. Probably more likely we deal a guard/wing for a big.

[Godaddycurse]

wolves say no, too much salary on the books for next year. Why dont suns just keep vuc for themsevles?

Honestly, I saw Wolves fans wanted a center on the team trade deadline thread and just worked them into the legendary suns five team trade framework

That’s a fair point about the money but are the wolves just expecting Randle to decline his PO?

Don’t see why the Wolves would trade their starting PF to fill a hole at back up Center. Seems like we’d be going the wrong direction on that one. Probably more likely we deal a guard/wing for a big.

which guard/wing are you going to deal instead?

[jscott]

Honestly, I saw Wolves fans wanted a center on the team trade deadline thread and just worked them into the legendary suns five team trade framework

That’s a fair point about the money but are the wolves just expecting Randle to decline his PO?

Don’t see why the Wolves would trade their starting PF to fill a hole at back up Center. Seems like we’d be going the wrong direction on that one. Probably more likely we deal a guard/wing for a big.

which guard/wing are you going to deal instead?

NAW maybe? Perhaps we ship the DET pick.

[ChettheJet]

The Bulls don't see losing with a $50M aging SG waiting 2 more years for the first of those picks to show up as being a plan, they might as well just run with Lavine and Vucevic at right below 500 and let the fans complain

[TheZachAttack]

1. Regular season games against teams not likely to make the playoffs are not usually games Ant goes all out in. To use those games as examples of what works or doesn’t is not a great example. Vuc is 34 and not that laterally quick. I have my doubts he could defend the 4 against a KD or Aaron Gordon, much less an AD or Chet.

2. Rudy is a human being. He took a tremendous hit to his ego in the Olympics when he was all but benched for most of the final rounds, and then got **** on by the talking heads as mister overrated, ect… I get that you think guys should not be effected by things, but the truth is, they are. If Rudy is negatively impacted by having his minutes slashed, and Vuc is negatively impacted by having his minutes slashed, then we are in the worst of both worlds.

3. I agree playing 5 out is important. But I have concerns about Naz and Vuc defensive duo. I fear that they will hemorrhage paint points and boards. I could see them giving back everything they gain on the offensive end and then some.

I see the potential but I also have concerns.

Fair enough. I don't think you make this move to try to play them together. My main take is I think adding center depth behind Rudy is important and adding a big who allows the Wolves to be able to have a lineup that punishes teams if they guard that center like they do Rudy when they are trapping Ant is an important skillset to add to the roster. I also think that one of the things that is holding back the Wolves is player egos who get frustrated and their play dips if their minutes in certain games reflect what is the best lineup from an x's and o's perspective. I get that players are human, but I think that also hints at a culture gap from truly being a winning team. This means that to some players on the team, the amount of minutes they play matters more than winning despite them having the chance to have a significant role and still be crucial to the team.

Naz and NAW are in contract years. Vuc is getting older and his number of excellent seasons is diminishing, plus this year is likely gonna be the year he points to for his last pay day. Rudy has had a ton of **** talked about him in the last 12 months from a lot of sources. Basketball should be mechanical, but it is not. I like Vuc, but his money is an issue. With 40+ invested in Rudy this year and another 20+ in Vuc that is 60 million in just the C position. Meanwhile you have Mike as the only true PG at 37 years old and 10 million. I think the priority is a starting PG and then a backup C, not the other way around.

P.S I know it massively mess with this trade, but I think Portis to MN would be a great fit.

Portis would be a good fit as well I 100% agree. He was on the list of players who score really well from the floater/mid range areas of the floor. I'm mostly tied to trying to add someone with this skillset into the rotation. I am also on the record for a long time saying that I think Jaden McDaniels can play well in this role -- and look how much it's helped our offense when we have someone who can get into those areas and has good touch.

[jredsaz]

The Bulls don't see losing with a $50M aging SG waiting 2 more years for the first of those picks to show up as being a plan, they might as well just run with Lavine and Vucevic at right below 500 and let the fans complain

That’s where I totally disagree. Bulls have been trying to trade Lavine for years with zero takers. They can finally get some value for him now. Not a huge difference between Lavine and Beal plus the team gets assets. Where you guys at if Lavine gets hurt again? Beal to Chicago makes a ton of sense to me.

[jredsaz]

The Bulls don't see losing with a $50M aging SG waiting 2 more years for the first of those picks to show up as being a plan, they might as well just run with Lavine and Vucevic at right below 500 and let the fans complain

That’s where I totally disagree. Bulls have been trying to trade Lavine for years with zero takers. They can finally get some value for him now. Not a huge difference between Lavine and Beal plus the team gets assets. Where you guys at if Lavine gets hurt again? Beal to Chicago makes a ton of sense to me.

Looks like the Bullls might be too

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[Andre Roberstan]

The Bulls don't see losing with a $50M aging SG waiting 2 more years for the first of those picks to show up as being a plan, they might as well just run with Lavine and Vucevic at right below 500 and let the fans complain

That’s where I totally disagree. Bulls have been trying to trade Lavine for years with zero takers. They can finally get some value for him now. Not a huge difference between Lavine and Beal plus the team gets assets. Where you guys at if Lavine gets hurt again? Beal to Chicago makes a ton of sense to me.

Looks like the Bullls might be too

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Shockingly, Sidery is again playing very fast and loose with what was actually said.

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Please do not take him seriously. About the only thing he's known for in the basketball coverage community is bad aggregation, poorly-sourced rumors and aggressively DMing anyone who questions his bona fides, which is loser behavior.

[jredsaz]

That’s where I totally disagree. Bulls have been trying to trade Lavine for years with zero takers. They can finally get some value for him now. Not a huge difference between Lavine and Beal plus the team gets assets. Where you guys at if Lavine gets hurt again? Beal to Chicago makes a ton of sense to me.

Looks like the Bullls might be too

[x]

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?s=46&t=FUyyhjewGjn9PpKelv4Wgg[/x]

Shockingly, Sidery is again playing very fast and loose with what was actually said.

Read on Twitter

Please do not take him seriously. About the only thing he's known for in the basketball coverage community is bad aggregation, poorly-sourced rumors and aggressively DMing anyone who questions his bona fides, which is loser behavior.

Idk what you’re talking about. Evan is a legend

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[jredsaz]

That’s where I totally disagree. Bulls have been trying to trade Lavine for years with zero takers. They can finally get some value for him now. Not a huge difference between Lavine and Beal plus the team gets assets. Where you guys at if Lavine gets hurt again? Beal to Chicago makes a ton of sense to me.

Looks like the Bullls might be too

[x]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=FUyyhjewGjn9PpKelv4Wgg[/x]

Shockingly, Sidery is again playing very fast and loose with what was actually said.

Read on Twitter

Please do not take him seriously. About the only thing he's known for in the basketball coverage community is bad aggregation, poorly-sourced rumors and aggressively DMing anyone who questions his bona fides, which is loser behavior.

In all seriousness he doubled down in a different twitter post not referencing Windy. It’s trade season. Less than two weeks to deadline. Some sources are more reliable than others. Can we just have some fun with it while we can?

[jredsaz]

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[winforlose]

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I suspect the list is quite small and would save everyone a lot of time.

[theBigLip]

Butler stays in Miami or goes to a team not listed above.

Wolves receive Nicola Vucivic, Pat Cannoughton
Suns receive Julius Randle, Bobby Portis
Bulls receive Bradly Beal, Tim Hardaway Jr, ‘27/‘29 1sts via PHX, Swap rights ‘26/‘30 via MIL, MIL 2nd ‘31
Bucks receive Zach Lavine, Wendell Moore Jr.
Pistons receive Kris Middleton

Wolves get another stretch five and get back to their big lineups.

Suns miss out on Butler but get more talent in the door and get off of Beals contract.

Bulls add a bunch of draft capital and begin to restructure their roster - finally able to get value for Lavine.

Bucks get the best player in the trade, duck the second apron and go all in for another title with Giannis.

Pistons get better. Middleton fits what they are looking for in a vet who can shoot and handle the basketball.

Chuck was right. Why in **** would the Pistons want Middleton’s contract? It is a negative, multi-year deal. He is old and always injured. And you don’t think the Pistons could use their cap space any better for this trade deadline?