Moving Flagg, DAL & SAS

[Jojothewhale]

There are a ton of offers made that we never hear about. When we have to resort to offers, we're specifically saying trades that weren't accepted. That feels instructive.

[Slim Charless]

Castle may not pan out, but comparing him to MCW seems ridiculous. Castle is bigger, stronger, more athletic, and shows more promise as a defender, scorer, etc. Even his 3pt shooting looks more hopeful than MCW. If his 3pt shot doesn't come around it's a problem, but he can still find a role as a wing like Iggy. MCW was too small, thin and unathletic to do that.

His comparison is no less ridiculous than you saying you don't see a difference between Flagg and Harper. As Flagg is one of the most touted rookies aside from Wemby to come out since LeBron.

You saying that as a Spurs fan taints the entire viewpoint of ur posts

I never said what team I was a fan of. Nor did I say I rated Flagg and Harper as equal.

I am not convinced there is much difference between Flagg and Harper. Harper could easily end up the better player. Why should the Spurs pay much of anything to move up?

Ask opinions on this quote and see how many tell you what they think it means. To me, that's you saying they're basically equal.

Which BTW is something no one else would say. The gulf between Flagg and Harper is gigantic and Harper is closer to being passed by VJ or Ace then he is to being drafted over Flagg.

[One_and_Done]

His comparison is no less ridiculous than you saying you don't see a difference between Flagg and Harper. As Flagg is one of the most touted rookies aside from Wemby to come out since LeBron.

You saying that as a Spurs fan taints the entire viewpoint of ur posts

I never said what team I was a fan of. Nor did I say I rated Flagg and Harper as equal.

I am not convinced there is much difference between Flagg and Harper. Harper could easily end up the better player. Why should the Spurs pay much of anything to move up?

Ask opinions on this quote and see how many tell you what they think it means. To me, that's you saying they're basically equal.

Which BTW is something no one else would say. The gulf between Flagg and Harper is gigantic and Harper is closer to being passed by VJ or Ace then he is to being drafted over Flagg.

If you re-read what I wrote it's very clear there is no contradiction. I have said in several threads now that I haven't seen enough film to have a firm opinion; but I'm not convinced Flagg is so clearly better that the Spurs should pay much to move up.

[SkyHook]

In 1993 the Magic traded the #1 pick (Chris Webber) for the #3 pick (Penny Hardaway) plus three additional FRPs.

There's a wide range of added value necessary depending upon the talent gap. This year's gap is perceived to be one of the larger ones. Adding the worst ROY in over four decades doesn't come remotely close to getting a deal done.

I'd rather move 3 FRPs than Castle, so that's fine by me. #2 + 3 future FRP. Also I don't know that context (were those picks unprotected?), but Spurs FRPs have multiple swaps attached that make them more valuable, so any Spurs offer is actually better than the one you mention.

All three unprotected, iirc.

[One_and_Done]

In 1993 the Magic traded the #1 pick (Chris Webber) for the #3 pick (Penny Hardaway) plus three additional FRPs.

There's a wide range of added value necessary depending upon the talent gap. This year's gap is perceived to be one of the larger ones. Adding the worst ROY in over four decades doesn't come remotely close to getting a deal done.

I'd rather move 3 FRPs than Castle, so that's fine by me. #2 + 3 future FRP. Also I don't know that context (were those picks unprotected?), but Spurs FRPs have multiple swaps attached that make them more valuable, so any Spurs offer is actually better than the one you mention.

All three unprotected, iirc.

The Spurs aren't moving 3 other unprotected 1sts to move up one. That's insane.

[SkyHook]

I'd rather move 3 FRPs than Castle, so that's fine by me. #2 + 3 future FRP. Also I don't know that context (were those picks unprotected?), but Spurs FRPs have multiple swaps attached that make them more valuable, so any Spurs offer is actually better than the one you mention.

All three unprotected, iirc.

The Spurs aren't moving 3 other unprotected 1sts to move up one. That's insane.

Who's saying that they should?

[Slim Charless]

I never said what team I was a fan of. Nor did I say I rated Flagg and Harper as equal.

I am not convinced there is much difference between Flagg and Harper. Harper could easily end up the better player. Why should the Spurs pay much of anything to move up?

Ask opinions on this quote and see how many tell you what they think it means. To me, that's you saying they're basically equal.

Which BTW is something no one else would say. The gulf between Flagg and Harper is gigantic and Harper is closer to being passed by VJ or Ace then he is to being drafted over Flagg.

If you re-read what I wrote it's very clear there is no contradiction. I have said in several threads now that I haven't seen enough film to have a firm opinion; but I'm not convinced Flagg is so clearly better that the Spurs should pay much to move up.

You're welcome to your opinion but my point is no one else besides you sees it that way. There's no legit draft site that has the 2 remotely close nor is there anyone on TV or online that reads them closely.

I imagine your saying this would be different had the spots been reversed and the Spurs had gotten the #1 pick. Perhaps the value of Flagg would be more apparent and the gap in value between him and Harper would be wider in that case.

Either way, I doubt this trade happens.

[One_and_Done]

I think Flagg would be a better short term fit with the Spurs. Whether he'll be a better player than Harper long term I am less sure of.

[tmorgan]

This idea that Harper would be #1 in a lot of drafts is ridiculous. He most definitely would not.

Are there a few? Sure. Last year, yes. Over Bargs? Yes. Over Bennett? Yes. Finding more after that gets iffy, even with the likes of Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, and Fultz out there.

Dude isn’t that impressive, sorry. Rutgers sucked. A great PG should be able to make any team more competitive than that.

[wemby]

This idea that Harper would be #1 in a lot of drafts is ridiculous. He most definitely would not.

Are there a few? Sure. Last year, yes. Over Bargs? Yes. Over Bennett? Yes. Finding more after that gets iffy, even with the likes of Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, and Fultz out there.

Dude isn’t that impressive, sorry. Rutgers sucked. A great PG should be able to make any team more competitive than that.

Bogut, Wiggins, for sure, then you can also bring up other classes where things weren't so clear at the time, like 2020 with Anthony Edwards, you can in hindsight say there's no doubt he's the best player however it wasn't that obvious at the time as many had Lamelo going first overall. Also, your opinion on Harper isn't relevant, as it wouldn't be you doing the picking, we're talking about how they are perceived overall, and Harper most definitely is a top 2 draft pick in most drafts and a top 1 in several of them. You being unimpressed is anecdotal.

[tmorgan]

This idea that Harper would be #1 in a lot of drafts is ridiculous. He most definitely would not.

Are there a few? Sure. Last year, yes. Over Bargs? Yes. Over Bennett? Yes. Finding more after that gets iffy, even with the likes of Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, and Fultz out there.

Dude isn’t that impressive, sorry. Rutgers sucked. A great PG should be able to make any team more competitive than that.

Bogut, Wiggins, for sure, then you can also bring up other classes where things weren't so clear at the time, like 2020 with Anthony Edwards, you can in hindsight say there's no doubt he's the best player however it wasn't that obvious at the time as many had Lamelo going first overall. Also, your opinion on Harper isn't relevant, as it wouldn't be you doing the picking, we're talking about how they are perceived overall, and Harper most definitely is a top 2 draft pick in most drafts and a top 1 in several of them. You being unimpressed is anecdotal.

We’re on a forum, and my opinion isn’t relevant, you say? Because I’m not Buford?

You need an attitude check, or simply don’t understand the purpose of forums.

[LightTheBeam]

The castle disrespect on these boards is going to look really silly in a few years. Total package

[shrink]

No GM could risk trading Flagg, and having him become a superstar on another franchise.

[wemby]

We’re on a forum, and my opinion isn’t relevant, you say? Because I’m not Buford?

You need an attitude check, or simply don’t understand the purpose of forums.

You're arguing that the idea Harper would go 1st in a lot of drafts "is ridiculous" because "Dude isn’t that impressive, sorry. Rutgers sucked. A great PG should be able to make any team more competitive than that", but the NBA world rates him much, much higher. That's where I said your opinion is irrelevant, as long as he's regarded that highly by NBA front offices it can't be ridiculous it for him to go first overall in other classes where you don't have a Cooper Flagg ahead. You can rate him lower and that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, what you can't do is pretend that it somehow affects consensus on him.

[tmorgan]

We’re on a forum, and my opinion isn’t relevant, you say? Because I’m not Buford?

You need an attitude check, or simply don’t understand the purpose of forums.

You're arguing that the idea Harper would go 1st in a lot of drafts "is ridiculous" because "Dude isn’t that impressive, sorry. Rutgers sucked. A great PG should be able to make any team more competitive than that", but the NBA world rates him much, much higher. That's where I said your opinion is irrelevant, as long as he's regarded that highly by NBA front offices it can't be ridiculous it for him to go first overall in other classes where you don't have a Cooper Flagg ahead. You can rate him lower and that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, what you can't do is pretend that it somehow affects consensus on him.

Ah, so there’s your issue. You’re so defensive about your team’s likely pick that you somehow think i’m trying to ‘affect consensus on him’.

He’s the consensus #2 pick in this draft, I’m not in any way denying that. I’m sure the Spurs will take him. I’m just telling you he actually wasn’t that impressive, because he wasn’t. The numbers are right there in front of you.

[williambh3]

Harper was super impressive. Best lead guard prospect in years IMO. I personally think the gap between him and Flagg isn’t as big as the media would lead you to believe, but a deal still very unlikely.

Rutgers sucked but so did Ant’s Georgia team and they had like 5 top 100 freshman and that’s not including Toumani Camara + a couple solid vets returning. Rutgers lost just about everyone from a bad team and didnt add anyone of significance besides Harper and Bailey. They were still like 12 points from being 11-1 when harper got sick and then injured. Bailey was a disaster down the stretch.

Harper’s numbers against major conference teams when healthy were incredible. Way, way better than Harden’s sophomore #s. Haven’t enjoyed watching a prospect this much since Luka.

[wemby]

We’re on a forum, and my opinion isn’t relevant, you say? Because I’m not Buford?

You need an attitude check, or simply don’t understand the purpose of forums.

You're arguing that the idea Harper would go 1st in a lot of drafts "is ridiculous" because "Dude isn’t that impressive, sorry. Rutgers sucked. A great PG should be able to make any team more competitive than that", but the NBA world rates him much, much higher. That's where I said your opinion is irrelevant, as long as he's regarded that highly by NBA front offices it can't be ridiculous it for him to go first overall in other classes where you don't have a Cooper Flagg ahead. You can rate him lower and that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, what you can't do is pretend that it somehow affects consensus on him.

Ah, so there’s your issue. You’re so defensive about your team’s likely pick that you somehow think i’m trying to ‘affect consensus on him’.

He’s the consensus #2 pick in this draft, I’m not in any way denying that. I’m sure the Spurs will take him. I’m just telling you he actually wasn’t that impressive, because he wasn’t. The numbers are right there in front of you.

Did you by any chance check out Amen and Ausar Thompson's OTE stats? They were very pedestrian, and we're talking about a level of competition even lower than that Harper & Bailey had to face. Yet they went 4 and 5 respectively. Ignite sucked much worse than Rutgers did, did that keep teams from drafting Ron Holland and Matas Buzelis? Of course not. Why is that the case? Because draft is based on projection more so than production. So just like those players went very high in the draft even though they hadn't won anything at a competitive level, so will Harper and Bailey.

[tmorgan]

You're arguing that the idea Harper would go 1st in a lot of drafts "is ridiculous" because "Dude isn’t that impressive, sorry. Rutgers sucked. A great PG should be able to make any team more competitive than that", but the NBA world rates him much, much higher. That's where I said your opinion is irrelevant, as long as he's regarded that highly by NBA front offices it can't be ridiculous it for him to go first overall in other classes where you don't have a Cooper Flagg ahead. You can rate him lower and that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, what you can't do is pretend that it somehow affects consensus on him.

Ah, so there’s your issue. You’re so defensive about your team’s likely pick that you somehow think i’m trying to ‘affect consensus on him’.

He’s the consensus #2 pick in this draft, I’m not in any way denying that. I’m sure the Spurs will take him. I’m just telling you he actually wasn’t that impressive, because he wasn’t. The numbers are right there in front of you.

Did you by any chance check out Amen and Ausar Thompson's OTE stats? They were very pedestrian, and we're talking about a level of competition even lower than that Harper & Bailey had to face. Yet they went 4 and 5 respectively. Ignite sucked much worse than Rutgers did, did that keep teams from drafting Ron Holland and Matas Buzelis? Of course not. Why is that the case? Because draft is based on projection more so than production. So just like those players went very high in the draft even though they hadn't won anything at a competitive level, so will Harper and Bailey.

Good luck with that. Really.

The Thompson twins are true outlier athletes — and yet are still problematic players because of their lack of shooting ability. Holland and Buzelis both have a long way to go to become good NBA players as well.

More to the point, none of those guys were top 2 picks, so who cares? This discussion is about whether Dylan Harper would go first in more than a few previous drafts, and whether he’s a strong #2 pick. You’re getting off topic, and badly,

Harper’s a good, not great athlete. He’s never shown any real point guard skills consistently, not in high school, not at Rutgers. He’s not a good shooter, and he’s very average from the free throw line. His defense isn’t good. He IS good, very good, at getting to the paint and finishing through contact. Pretty nice handle and first step.

He played with another problematic top 5 prospect and finished 8-12 in the Big Ten and under .500 overall, with truly horrid team defense numbers.

What he looks like is combo guard leaning shooting guard with good size, suspect defense and a suspect shot. My only explanation for the hype he’s received is that this draft is way flatter than usual beyond Flagg and someone has to be #2. That’s a very stark contrast to ‘would be a #1 pick in a lot of years’, so one of us is VERY wrong here. Time will tell.

One more thing — I think the big issue here is that Harper is way too much like Castle for San Antonio’s comfort. I can see them moving out of this spot for that reason. But it’s not gonna be up, as this thread suggested. The Spurs have no tradable asset to achieve that (beyond Wemby, who is the most valuable asset in the league, so obviously not him).

[tmorgan]

Harper was super impressive. Best lead guard prospect in years IMO. I personally think the gap between him and Flagg isn’t as big as the media would lead you to believe, but a deal still very unlikely.

Rutgers sucked but so did Ant’s Georgia team and they had like 5 top 100 freshman and that’s not including Toumani Camara + a couple solid vets returning. Rutgers lost just about everyone from a bad team and didnt add anyone of significance besides Harper and Bailey. They were still like 12 points from being 11-1 when harper got sick and then injured. Bailey was a disaster down the stretch.

Harper’s numbers against major conference teams when healthy were incredible. Way, way better than Harden’s sophomore #s. Haven’t enjoyed watching a prospect this much since Luka.

This is some incredible marketing material. Let me try…

Rutgers was also 11 (won by 8 combined) points from being 5-11 instead of 8-8, which includes their 4-0 start against four varieties of Little Sisters of the Poor. So yeah, 11 points from 1-11 against real teams.