Was/OKC/Dal - Poole/PJ/15

[Mavrelous]

A defensive anchor who can stay on the floor to close games or a clutch 2nd option is harder to fill. kyrie and lively were more important to the mavs than PJ was. PJ was acquired for grant williams and a future 1st. Dont understand how he suddenly got so valuable when his game didnt really change from hornets to mavericks AND he lost 2 years of cost control. Makes no sense to me. Just because he's better than the prior crappy options the mavs had doesn't make him worth a lotto pick.

-0.2 EPM
-0.9 BPM
55.6% TS

That doesn't scream lotto value to me

What difference the price paid makes? I was against paying the 1st for PJ excatly because of how you portray him in the end, last year stats where he played w/o a PG don't really matter to me.
He's not the player for bad situation, he's the player for good ones.
PJ showed he's a pivotal player on a finals team, 2nd most important defender in it.
Mavs starters had 20+ on/off, his presence is felt, his on/off last year with DAL was +8, his on court net rating almost 9, he missed the start if the season and team really struggled w/o him.

[gswhoops]

Washington gets cut out of this in an instant. If OKC is offering #15 for PJ, Dallas should just take that.

[DNP-Old]

Makes no sense for OKC, but if they wanted PJ why wouldn't they just trade Dieng and the 15 to Dallas. I can't imagine Dallas saying no.

We can definitely disagree on PJ's fit for OKC, but most other OKC fans have talked about him specifically a lot as a big forward who fills one of their only holes. But yeah if no interest, no interest.

Value is definitely fair for Dallas. But surely you can imagine a team that just traded Luka for AD as maybe preferring to keep a solid starter over trading him for a mid-1st right?

Now in the OP's deal he's trying to fill another win-now hole with Poole, not trade PJ for future value. Might not be the direction you would go, but I think you can imagine it no?

Makes no sense for OKC, but if they wanted PJ why wouldn't they just trade Dieng and the 15 to Dallas. I can't imagine Dallas saying no.

PJ makes no sense? That’s a bit confusing. He’s a pretty ideal third big for them and playing a lot of minutes. then after next season they might go with keeping him over IH depending on price/fit..

They could do it straight up like that and Dallas could trade Dieng and 15 for a better guard than Poole. Definitely.

Monk. Sexton. Etc. options have been explored a lot of different ways here.

Or Dallas could keep 15th and trade Dieng+2nd(s) for a worse guard than Poole (Ayo?) but not be tied to Poole’s big contract. That’s a good route as well..

Just was trying to keep the two-time line approach going for Dallas. Poole helps keep the offense afloat, 18th hopefully becomes a rotation piece down the line. There should be some upside pieces at 18.. or go for one of the centers and free up trading Gafford..

I did not say that PJ didn't fit OKC. I said the trade doesn't make sense. Which rotational player should OKC play fewer minutes for PJ to play "a lot of minutes." Dieng plays very few minutes, so whichever rotational player you think should get their minutes cut might be the better player to trade for PJ and adding the #15 to any of OKC's rotational players is a sizable overpay.

TC I'm sorry if my use of the phrase "I can't imagine" offends you. Yes, I actually can imagine Dallas turning down #15 for PJ but I can also imagine unicorns and leprechauns. Dallas would be foolish to turn it down as it makes their search for a PG much easier. Assuming Dallas's interest in Jrue is accurate, a hypothetical offer of Thompson, Prosper & #15 makes a lot more sense to Boston than Thompson, Prosper & PJ. Dallas could even get back #28 and/or #32 in that deal.

[Texas Chuck]

TC I'm sorry if my use of the phrase "I can't imagine" offends you. Yes, I actually can imagine Dallas turning down #15 for PJ but I can also imagine unicorns and leprechauns. Dallas would be foolish to turn it down as it makes their search for a PG much easier. Assuming Dallas's interest in Jrue is accurate, a hypothetical offer of Thompson, Prosper & #15 makes a lot more sense to Boston than Thompson, Prosper & PJ. Dallas could even get back #28 and/or #32 in that deal.

I wasn't offended by your post lol. I misunderstood you. I won't bother you any more though if this is your reaction to me responding to your actual words. You said you couldn't imagine it. Which is what I do, respond to what people actually post. If you meant I think Dallas should do this for reasons X and Y, post that. But you didn't give me any of that, right? You stopped at I can't imagine it. So I went into explaining different scenarios as to why. This reductive response leads us no further though. Unicorns and leprechauns? Really?

[jayjaysee]

I did not say that PJ didn't fit OKC. I said the trade doesn't make sense. Which rotational player should OKC play fewer minutes for PJ to play "a lot of minutes." Dieng plays very few minutes, so whichever rotational player you think should get their minutes cut might be the better player to trade for PJ and adding the #15 to any of OKC's rotational players is a sizable overpay.

I think Jaylin and Kenny become full time cheerleaders if you get PJ? And you can protect Jalen a bit.

I do agree OKC’s “needs” aren’t as big as most teams. They’re one of maybe 3-4 teams that actually have 10+ rotation pieces. But they could still use PJ’s game..

But if you do this and then trade The Man that saved basketball for a pick with the plan of playing bigger next season.. You open a major role for PJ and recoup some of your value.

[DNP-Old]

TC I'm sorry if my use of the phrase "I can't imagine" offends you. Yes, I actually can imagine Dallas turning down #15 for PJ but I can also imagine unicorns and leprechauns. Dallas would be foolish to turn it down as it makes their search for a PG much easier. Assuming Dallas's interest in Jrue is accurate, a hypothetical offer of Thompson, Prosper & #15 makes a lot more sense to Boston than Thompson, Prosper & PJ. Dallas could even get back #28 and/or #32 in that deal.

I wasn't offended by your post lol. I misunderstood you. I won't bother you any more though if this is your reaction to me responding to your actual words. You said you couldn't imagine it. Which is what I do, respond to what people actually post. If you meant I think Dallas should do this for reasons X and Y, post that. But you didn't give me any of that, right? You stopped at I can't imagine it. So I went into explaining different scenarios as to why. This reductive response leads us no further though. Unicorns and leprechauns? Really?

I can imagine that you misunderstood the first sentence of my original post, but I find it hard to believe that you didn't understand the second sentence, "I can't imagine that Dallas says no" was hyperbole and knew exactly what I meant. Yet you chose to respond like a petulant child with "...but I think you can imagine it no?" and I responded in kind. But if you do, in fact, take every word written literally, you are as "smart as a whip."

[Texas Chuck]

I realize after reading your follow up that you believe 15 and Dieng to be worth way more than PJ Washington. Which is fine. But since that is not a common opinion that the value difference is vast I didn't assume what you meant when you posted nothing but duh Dallas does it. I then tried to explain why Dallas might not want to take that deal, even though I myself said the value was good for Dallas.

You then came back and gave your reason why Dallas should absolutely do the deal anyway(the value mentioned above and your belief they should overpay for Jrue). Had you simply posted that in the beginning my response would have been totally different.

Post what you mean. Don't make me guess. I'm sorry you were offended by me using your words back to you.

[DNP-Old]

I realize after reading your follow up that you believe 15 and Dieng to be worth way more than PJ Washington. Which is fine. But since that is not a common opinion that the value difference is vast I didn't assume what you meant when you posted nothing but duh Dallas does it. I then tried to explain why Dallas might not want to take that deal, even though I myself said the value was good for Dallas.

You then came back and gave your reason why Dallas should absolutely do the deal anyway(the value mentioned above and your belief they should overpay for Jrue). Had you simply posted that in the beginning my response would have been totally different.

Post what you mean. Don't make me guess. I'm sorry you were offended by me using your words back to you.

If this is what you took from our exchanges, you are nowhere as intelligent or self aware as I have given you credit for in the past. I absolutely take responsibility for my posts. If something I post is pointed out to be unclear or is misunderstood, I will attempt to clarify my position. I also don't confuse my opinion with fact. I understand it is just my opinion. Yes, I used hyperbole in one of my sentences. It is my experience on this forum, as well as many other places in life, that hyperbole is very common. If you are unwilling to, or incapable of, distinguishing between it and literal, it is a you problem and not an everybody else problem.

[DNP-Old]

I did not say that PJ didn't fit OKC. I said the trade doesn't make sense. Which rotational player should OKC play fewer minutes for PJ to play "a lot of minutes." Dieng plays very few minutes, so whichever rotational player you think should get their minutes cut might be the better player to trade for PJ and adding the #15 to any of OKC's rotational players is a sizable overpay.

I think Jaylin and Kenny become full time cheerleaders if you get PJ? And you can protect Jalen a bit.

I do agree OKC’s “needs” aren’t as big as most teams. They’re one of maybe 3-4 teams that actually have 10+ rotation pieces. But they could still use PJ’s game..

But if you do this and then trade The Man that saved basketball for a pick with the plan of playing bigger next season.. You open a major role for PJ and recoup some of your value.

I assume Kenny is Kenrich, if I'm wrong I apologize. Rather than turn Kenrich into 7m cheerleader I would include him in the trade. I think Kenrich, Dieng & #24 is fair for PJ. However, DAL insists on the #15 and only one of the players, I think the other player is easily movable and should, in these circumstances, be moved. Short story long, if OKC is good with paying the #15 for PJ, great. I just think they should, given these parameters, get rid of both Dieng & Kenrich. Getting rid of both lowers OKC's payroll by 7m and opens a roster spot for the remaining 1st round pick.
.
As for "The Man that saved basketball," that went way over my head and I have no idea what it means.

[jayjaysee]

I did not say that PJ didn't fit OKC. I said the trade doesn't make sense. Which rotational player should OKC play fewer minutes for PJ to play "a lot of minutes." Dieng plays very few minutes, so whichever rotational player you think should get their minutes cut might be the better player to trade for PJ and adding the #15 to any of OKC's rotational players is a sizable overpay.

I think Jaylin and Kenny become full time cheerleaders if you get PJ? And you can protect Jalen a bit.

I do agree OKC’s “needs” aren’t as big as most teams. They’re one of maybe 3-4 teams that actually have 10+ rotation pieces. But they could still use PJ’s game..

But if you do this and then trade The Man that saved basketball for a pick with the plan of playing bigger next season.. You open a major role for PJ and recoup some of your value.

I assume Kenny is Kenrich, if I'm wrong I apologize. Rather than turn Kenrich into 7m cheerleader I would include him in the trade. I think Kenrich, Dieng & #24 is fair for PJ. However, DAL insists on the #15 and only one of the players, I think the other player is easily movable and should, in these circumstances, be moved. Short story long, if OKC is good with paying the #15 for PJ, great. I just think they should, given these parameters, get rid of both Dieng & Kenrich. Getting rid of both lowers OKC's payroll by 7m and opens a roster spot for the remaining 1st round pick.
.
As for "The Man that saved basketball," that went way over my head and I have no idea what it means.

As a Dallas fan, I thought those nicknames for the OKC players were well known honestly. But maybe I’m just a closet OKC fan still.

Kenny Hustle - brings a lot off the court, is loved and the team might want to keep him even if he only plays spot minutes most nights.. The other benefit of keeping him is trading him later for more salary, say if Topic isn’t ready to fill that secondary playmaker role that the team could use..

The Man That Saved Basketball - is Aaron Wiggins. A meme blew up from what I recall. Really decent / really cheap two way rotation piece that has more overlap with the rest of the Thunder players than PJ would.. and given he’s not as good (despite me being a huge fan) as Jalen, Dort or Caruso - you could if you wanted to trade him and play bigger with PJ in place..

Which makes a circle of Wiggins/PJ straight line discussion, but that would involve pegging a value on Wiggins, which I think would be tough to do.

Where as Dieng was a long shot prospect that didn’t pan out. Still young enough to believe in, but to me should he widely available entering his fourth season.

[DNP-Old]

I think Jaylin and Kenny become full time cheerleaders if you get PJ? And you can protect Jalen a bit.

I do agree OKC’s “needs” aren’t as big as most teams. They’re one of maybe 3-4 teams that actually have 10+ rotation pieces. But they could still use PJ’s game..

But if you do this and then trade The Man that saved basketball for a pick with the plan of playing bigger next season.. You open a major role for PJ and recoup some of your value.

I assume Kenny is Kenrich, if I'm wrong I apologize. Rather than turn Kenrich into 7m cheerleader I would include him in the trade. I think Kenrich, Dieng & #24 is fair for PJ. However, DAL insists on the #15 and only one of the players, I think the other player is easily movable and should, in these circumstances, be moved. Short story long, if OKC is good with paying the #15 for PJ, great. I just think they should, given these parameters, get rid of both Dieng & Kenrich. Getting rid of both lowers OKC's payroll by 7m and opens a roster spot for the remaining 1st round pick.
.
As for "The Man that saved basketball," that went way over my head and I have no idea what it means.

As a Dallas fan, I thought those nicknames for the OKC players were well known honestly. But maybe I’m just a closet OKC fan still.

Kenny Hustle - brings a lot off the court, is loved and the team might want to keep him even if he only plays spot minutes most nights.. The other benefit of keeping him is trading him later for more salary, say if Topic isn’t ready to fill that secondary playmaker role that the team could use..

The Man That Saved Basketball - is Aaron Wiggins. A meme blew up from what I recall. Really decent / really cheap two way rotation piece that has more overlap with the rest of the Thunder players than PJ would.. and given he’s not as good (despite me being a huge fan) as Jalen, Dort or Caruso - you could if you wanted to trade him and play bigger with PJ in place..

Which makes a circle of Wiggins/PJ straight line discussion, but that would involve pegging a value on Wiggins, which I think would be tough to do.

Where as Dieng was a long shot prospect that didn’t pan out. Still young enough to believe in, but to me should he widely available entering his fourth season.

For the record, the fact that I don't know it doesn't mean that it is not well known.

[TGW]

lol at "DNP-Old"

[GatherStepGuru]

I don’t see why WAS says yes. Poole serves a purpose in WAS; Klay would just be another Khris Middleton, just cheaper. I don’t see why WAS takes him just to move up 3 spots.

I think Poole gets alot of hate bc he’s overpaid, but on a team where he’s like a 3rd or 4th option, I think he looks a lot better. Bad team or not, not everybody can put up 20 ppl over a season.

I don’t think WAS is in the cap space game; they’re in the “our space/expirings for young talent or picks” game, and I don’t think 3 spots in the mid lottery is enough incentive.

[Devilanche]

I think Jaylin and Kenny become full time cheerleaders if you get PJ? And you can protect Jalen a bit.

I do agree OKC’s “needs” aren’t as big as most teams. They’re one of maybe 3-4 teams that actually have 10+ rotation pieces. But they could still use PJ’s game..

But if you do this and then trade The Man that saved basketball for a pick with the plan of playing bigger next season.. You open a major role for PJ and recoup some of your value.

I assume Kenny is Kenrich, if I'm wrong I apologize. Rather than turn Kenrich into 7m cheerleader I would include him in the trade. I think Kenrich, Dieng & #24 is fair for PJ. However, DAL insists on the #15 and only one of the players, I think the other player is easily movable and should, in these circumstances, be moved. Short story long, if OKC is good with paying the #15 for PJ, great. I just think they should, given these parameters, get rid of both Dieng & Kenrich. Getting rid of both lowers OKC's payroll by 7m and opens a roster spot for the remaining 1st round pick.
.
As for "The Man that saved basketball," that went way over my head and I have no idea what it means.

As a Dallas fan, I thought those nicknames for the OKC players were well known honestly. But maybe I’m just a closet OKC fan still.

Kenny Hustle - brings a lot off the court, is loved and the team might want to keep him even if he only plays spot minutes most nights.. The other benefit of keeping him is trading him later for more salary, say if Topic isn’t ready to fill that secondary playmaker role that the team could use..

The Man That Saved Basketball - is Aaron Wiggins. A meme blew up from what I recall. Really decent / really cheap two way rotation piece that has more overlap with the rest of the Thunder players than PJ would.. and given he’s not as good (despite me being a huge fan) as Jalen, Dort or Caruso - you could if you wanted to trade him and play bigger with PJ in place..

Which makes a circle of Wiggins/PJ straight line discussion, but that would involve pegging a value on Wiggins, which I think would be tough to do.

Where as Dieng was a long shot prospect that didn’t pan out. Still young enough to believe in, but to me should he widely available entering his fourth season.

I would try to move Joe if I’m taking on PJ. Contract/minutes wise etc .

Dieng being moved is good for me obviously .